OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

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iforgotmysocks
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OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

So i just had the very pleseant moment of watching my 2 fully equipped Odysseus with Shield modifications being ripped apart by 2 PAR Nemesis in OOS combat.
They just suddenly lost all their turrets before being able to kill one of the two fighters and afterwards they were both killed. Odys were using L Pulse and M Plasmas.

Not quite sure that's intentional. ^^
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Sandalpocalypse
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Sandalpocalypse »

They are always looking at it, but you can bring up particular issues. Turrets do get stripped harder OOS than they do IS.

Note that PAR Nemesis are often equipped with 4 plasma cannons and are extraordinarily deadly to destroyers in sector as well.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.
iforgotmysocks
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

Sandalpocalypse wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 20:13 They are always looking at it,
It's an issue since about 6 years.
Sandalpocalypse wrote: Turrets do get stripped harder OOS than they do IS.
Yap they do. I just don't really get why. The idea for capital ships (or whatever destroyers are supposed to be, X4 is really weird in that regard) to lose their entire firepower instantly makes absolutly no sense.
Sandalpocalypse wrote:
Note that PAR Nemesis are often equipped with 4 plasma cannons and are extraordinarily deadly to destroyers in sector as well.
Which is maybe a fifth of the dps 2 destroyers put out.

OOS streight up not making any sense and being broken was the particular issue why i finally gave up on X Rebirth after almost 2k hours. I am usually very patient with games and i've loved the X games forever, but seing this particular issue still being a thing after 6 years just doesn't sit right with me.
sh1pman
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by sh1pman »

Did you test the same setup IS? I suspect that 2 Nemeses fully equipped with Plasma should rip the Oddy’s to shreds.
adeine
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by adeine »

Interested to know as well, it's one of the main issues with the game right now.
Buzz2005
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Buzz2005 »

yes number 1 killer of balance and joy for me, mods cant fix it so its even more of a problem
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.
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RoverTX
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by RoverTX »

Are you on the beta? There is a current a DPS calculation bug where turret DPS is only a tenth of what it should be. Fixed the the next beta version.
iforgotmysocks
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

RoverTX wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:41 Are you on the beta? There is a current a DPS calculation bug where turret DPS is only a tenth of what it should be. Fixed the the next beta version.
I'm talking about the general issues of OOS calculation that were never tackled, turrets dying instantly for no reason, shield only weapons doing insane OOS damage to hulls and the fact that it's still an issue after 6 years.

Oh, and the bug you mentioned aparently only had a small impact so i'm guessing it only affected a specific turret size or target rule (+ turret dps don't really matter when they all die at the beginning of the fight):
j.harshaw wrote: Fri, 13. Dec 19, 19:37 Yes, it did, but surprisingly less than expected.
Olfrygt
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Olfrygt »

Sandalpocalypse wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 20:13 Note that PAR Nemesis are often equipped with 4 plasma cannons and are extraordinarily deadly to destroyers in sector as well.
After 2 Shots overheated....DPS of plasma IS is the smallest ingame by far. Only the first "shot" is doing good dps.
So Scriptcontrolled Plasma may be strong because the scripts are so bad and they dont attack often.............


Plasma on turrets is ok, but as mainweapons they are a joke. Only OOS they are broken. Because they cant overheat anymore.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by j.harshaw »

iforgotmysocks wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:58turrets dying instantly for no reason
Will recheck. Happen to have a save with repro? Could save some time.
iforgotmysocks wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:58shield only weapons doing insane OOS damage to hulls
This should most certainly no longer be the case in 3.0. Already fixed in 2.6, I think, but not sure. Did you find this to still be the case?
iforgotmysocks wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:58 Oh, and the bug you mentioned aparently only had a small impact so i'm guessing it only affected a specific turret size or target rule (+ turret dps don't really matter when they all die at the beginning of the fight):
j.harshaw wrote: Fri, 13. Dec 19, 19:37 Yes, it did, but surprisingly less than expected.
If i remember correctly, total dps of a K was roughly half rather than around a tenth as expected since it's armed with just turrets. And it mostly affected the damage they dealt against large, slow targets such as stations which allows them to focus fire. Significant, but less than expected.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

Hey j.harshaw, thanks for taking the time! :)
j.harshaw wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 01:33
iforgotmysocks wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:58turrets dying instantly for no reason
Will recheck. Happen to have a save with repro? Could save some time.
Sadly not, but it happens all the time when sending caps into a fight without support. I have a feeling you guys use the same method to calculate OOS damage then in Rebirth, but in Rebirth ships had alot more turrets, sometimes up to 200+ (and even then it was a questionable system, duo to fights not being about which cap has the most damage and sustainability rather than which cap has more turrets to outlast the 'crossing off turret' phase before the 'fight' begins). Now we're down to a few. The idea that turrets should die so fast should really be revisited if possible. Especially when fighting few enemies as they wouldn't even be able to somehow kill turrets on all sides of a ship in seconds.
j.harshaw wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 01:33
iforgotmysocks wrote: Sat, 14. Dec 19, 23:58shield only weapons doing insane OOS damage to hulls
This should most certainly no longer be the case in 3.0. Already fixed in 2.6, I think, but not sure. Did you find this to still be the case?
Ah, that's my bad then. Didn't recheck that one yet, thanks!

OOS calculations seem off the board in general. Did you catch my post in the Shield balance thread about the small Xenon fleet (I, K, 4 Ps) not being able to kill a buildership forever? (were still fighting after an hour and having only half damage wouldn't explain this either)
I added a save in the thread.
But again my plee, please revisit the turret dying and slow it down so caps can stay in a fight for a reasonable amount of time before becoming entirely useless.

If i may also address another topic regarding balance, any plans of revisiting weapon classes in general? Having S class fighter weapons with almost twice the range as M class turrets feels just wrong and M size fighter guns ranging from 4.4km up to 6.4km compared to M size turret ranges from 2km - 3km doesn't make sense to me. L turrets also have a way too short range (still lower than M sized mk2) and pretty low damage (exluding xenons).
Any plans to shape that in a direction that would make spacefights less of a headbutting brawl hence the use of turrets with very low range compared to usual weapons?

Thank you! :)
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Imperial Good »

j.harshaw wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 01:33 This should most certainly no longer be the case in 3.0. Already fixed in 2.6, I think, but not sure. Did you find this to still be the case?
Unless it regressed in one of the newer beta builds, it is mostly fixed.

There was a minor issue that overflow shield damage, damage that takes shields down to 0, could spill onto hull removing a large chunk of the hull with shield damage before doing the correct minimal hull damage. However this chunk only really affects S ships and still should not be instantly fatal to them. Unless some sort of monster M ship with 8-10 guns is added of course.
iforgotmysocks wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 03:00 If i may also address another topic regarding balance, any plans of revisiting weapon classes in general? Having S class fighter weapons with almost twice the range as M class turrets feels just wrong and M size fighter guns ranging from 4.4km up to 6.4km compared to M size turret ranges from 2km - 3km doesn't make sense to me. L turrets also have a way too short range (still lower than M sized mk2) and pretty low damage (exluding xenons).
Turret damage might not look good on paper, but they do not suffer from overheating that guns do so guns usually have significantly lower sustained damage than they do have burst damage. This is especially the case on ships with a lot of guns since cooling rate is proportional to the number of guns being cooled. One can kind of think of their low range/damage being because they are designed to be heat efficient and hence able to fire constantly unlike guns.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Shepp »

I wonder if some of this would be solved if components couldn't be targeted until the main shields are down? I like the concept of being able to take out turrets, engines, and shield generators but its way too easy for a smaller ship to get in close to a big ship, knock out its weapons, and then whittle it down.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

Imperial Good wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 07:26 One can kind of think of their low range/damage being because they are designed to be heat efficient and hence able to fire constantly unlike guns.
I'm sorry, but designing turrets that are specificly created to kill smaller targets with only half of the targets range, so that the target can effectively stay out of firing range and never be killed doesn't make much sense. Especially not when the designed weapon is supposed to be alot more powerfull then the target's weapon and not even if you throw some heat management phantasies ontop of it. The heat management part is already pretty much handled by turrets having alot lower dps, meaning if you want it 'more realistic' they may just fire alot slower to avoid overheating. :p
Shepp wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 13:38 I wonder if some of this would be solved if components couldn't be targeted until the main shields are down? I like the concept of being able to take out turrets, engines, and shield generators but its way too easy for a smaller ship to get in close to a big ship, knock out its weapons, and then whittle it down.
The idea behind the ability to destroy surface elements was introduced in X-R, to give the player the ability partake in fleet fights in a meaningfull way. It still holds true that you as a player can effectively change the course of an entire fight just by knocking out some dangerous turrets yourself, which does hold valid content value for the type of player that likes to engage in smaller ship combat. I believe the concept itself is a pretty good idea, but still has flaws that are easily fixable.

It needs to be balanced better for OOS combat, so that turrets won't bulk die almost instantly. IS balance is easily handleable just by increasing or decreasing surface shield power, but OOS doesn't even consider that (at least it didn't in XR)
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Shepp »

iforgotmysocks wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 14:39 The idea behind the ability to destroy surface elements was introduced in X-R, to give the player the ability partake in fleet fights in a meaningfull way. It still holds true that you as a player can effectively change the course of an entire fight just by knocking out some dangerous turrets yourself, which does hold valid content value for the type of player that likes to engage in smaller ship combat. I believe the concept itself is a pretty good idea, but still has flaws that are easily fixable.

It needs to be balanced better for OOS combat, so that turrets won't bulk die almost instantly. IS balance is easily handleable just by increasing or decreasing surface shield power, but OOS doesn't even consider that (at least it didn't in XR)
The reason it existed like that in X-Rebirth is because you were restricted to a single, relatively small, ship the entire game. If it didn't work the way it did in that game you would be locked out of any combat involving big ships. Why have capital ships in the game if they can be easily sniped by ships they should be outclassing?
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

Shepp wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 21:29 The reason it existed like that in X-Rebirth is because you were restricted to a single, relatively small, ship the entire game. If it didn't work the way it did in that game you would be locked out of any combat involving big ships. Why have capital ships in the game if they can be easily sniped by ships they should be outclassing?
Yes, this was a reason why this mechanic was introduced, but that still provides content for players enjoying to have some impact flying a fighter. As i said, this can be easily balanced by adjusting the power of surface element shields, but the turrets dying so fast OOS is the real problem. Taking the mechanic away altogether only removes content from the game that others might enjoy (And can be done with a mod fairly easily). If surface elements would be less squishy, OOS turret mass dying would be fixed and non missile turrets on capships would actually have the range and damage to be a threat, a fighter couldn't do much against a capital ship as it would just perish away being grilled by m-turrets. Remember the Taranis in X-R? :p Zzzzzap and dead.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Imperial Good »

iforgotmysocks wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 14:39 I'm sorry, but designing turrets that are specificly created to kill smaller targets with only half of the targets range, so that the target can effectively stay out of firing range and never be killed doesn't make much sense.
It makes perfect sense given that the AI loves to dive and is completely incapable of taking advantage of their superior range. This is why flak turrets are so effective against S ships despite having extremely low range.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by iforgotmysocks »

Imperial Good wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 22:34 It makes perfect sense given that the AI loves to dive and is completely incapable of taking advantage of their superior range. This is why flak turrets are so effective against S ships despite having extremely low range.
Using currently flawed ai behaviour (which could be improved at any given time in the future) to somehow try to justify a really bad and unlogical weapon design choise may not be the best argument.
And if i remember right, then fighters using torpedos already stay out of the very small turret range and are practicly unkillable for a cap using non missile turrets.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by Shepp »

iforgotmysocks wrote: Sun, 15. Dec 19, 22:12 Yes, this was a reason why this mechanic was introduced, but that still provides content for players enjoying to have some impact flying a fighter. As i said, this can be easily balanced by adjusting the power of surface element shields, but the turrets dying so fast OOS is the real problem. Taking the mechanic away altogether only removes content from the game that others might enjoy (And can be done with a mod fairly easily). If surface elements would be less squishy, OOS turret mass dying would be fixed and non missile turrets on capships would actually have the range and damage to be a threat, a fighter couldn't do much against a capital ship as it would just perish away being grilled by m-turrets. Remember the Taranis in X-R? :p Zzzzzap and dead.
I didn't suggest that the mechanic be taken away all together. I suggested that surface elements shouldn't be able to be targeted until the main shields had been taken out first. Small ships could still have an impact. It just would require the attacker to put in more effort than flying up to the blind spot of a capital, sniping its surface elements and engines, and then whittling down the rest of the hull. I'm willing to bet this would help with the OOS issues as well.
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Re: OOS combat rebalance / fix planned in the near future?

Post by GCU Grey Area »

Shepp wrote: Tue, 17. Dec 19, 13:27 I suggested that surface elements shouldn't be able to be targeted until the main shields had been taken out first. Small ships could still have an impact.
Not really. In my experience by the time main shields are down the hull follows pretty damn quickly - at least it does if you're using a sensible approach (i.e. destroyers). Any benefit that might have been derived from sniping turrets is almost completely irrelevant if it could only be done after the target is effectively already dead.

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