Let's talk about weapon balance

[Imperial Good]

M pulse laser Mk2 fires an 89 damage burst with a 1.37 second rate of fire. M bolt repeater Mk2 fires a 45 damage burst with a 1 second rate of fire. M pulse turret fires 89 damage per burst with a 1.87 second rate of fire while M bolt turret fires a 31 damage burst with a 0.99 rate of fire. How does this translate into bolts doing 50% more dps?

Pulse Laser Turret M use this projectile -> bullet_gen_turret_m_laser_01_mk1_macro
Chain Bolt Turret M use this projectile -> bullet_gen_turret_m_gatling_01_mk1_macro
Pulse Laser Gun M Mk2 uses this projectile -> bullet_gen_m_laser_01_mk2_macro
Chain Bolt Gun M Mk2 uses this projectile -> bullet_gen_m_gatling_01_mk2_macro

Here is the data for each of these...

Code: Select all

<macros>
  <macro name="bullet_gen_turret_m_laser_01_mk1_macro" class="bullet">
    <component ref="bullet_gen_s_laser_01_mk1" />
    <properties>
      <ammunition value="3" reload="0.5" />
      <bullet speed="3525" lifetime="0.8" amount="1" barrelamount="2" icon="weapon_laser_mk1" timediff="0.018" angle="0.18" maxhits="1" ricochet="0" scale="0" attach="0" />
      <reload rate="14" />
      <damage value="24" repair="0" />
      <effects>
        <impact ref="impact_gen_s_laser_01_mk1" />
        <launch ref="muzzle_gen_s_laser_01_mk1" />
      </effects>
      <weapon system="turret_midrange" />
    </properties>
  </macro>
</macros>

Code: Select all

<macros>
  <macro name="bullet_gen_turret_m_gatling_01_mk1_macro" class="bullet">
    <component ref="bullet_gen_s_gatling_01_mk1" />
    <properties>
      <ammunition value="15" reload="1" />
      <bullet speed="2040" lifetime="1.3" amount="1" barrelamount="2" icon="weapon_gatling_mk1" timediff="0.018" angle="0.18" maxhits="2" ricochet="0.01" restitution="0.3" scale="0" attach="0" />
      <reload rate="10" />
      <damage value="16" repair="0" />
      <effects>
        <impact ref="impact_gen_s_gatling_01_mk1" />
        <launch ref="muzzle_gen_s_gatling_01_mk1" />
      </effects>
      <weapon system="turret_shortrange" />
    </properties>
  </macro>
</macros>

Code: Select all

<macros>
  <macro name="bullet_gen_m_laser_01_mk2_macro" class="bullet">
    <component ref="bullet_gen_m_laser_01_mk2" />
    <properties>
      <ammunition value="4" reload="0.7" />
      <bullet speed="4562" lifetime="1.1" amount="1" barrelamount="1" icon="weapon_laser_mk2" timediff="0.021" angle="0.21" maxhits="1" ricochet="0" scale="0" attach="0" />
      <heat value="29" />
      <reload rate="12" />
      <damage value="64" repair="0" />
      <effects>
        <impact ref="impact_gen_m_laser_01_mk1" />
        <launch ref="muzzle_gen_m_laser_01_mk1" />
      </effects>
      <weapon system="weapon_standard" />
    </properties>
  </macro>
</macros>

Code: Select all

<macros>
  <macro name="bullet_gen_m_gatling_01_mk2_macro" class="bullet">
    <component ref="bullet_gen_m_gatling_01_mk2" />
    <properties>
      <ammunition value="24" reload="1" />
      <bullet speed="1920" lifetime="2.5" amount="1" barrelamount="1" icon="weapon_gatling_mk2" timediff="0.021" angle="0.21" maxhits="2" ricochet="0.01" restitution="0.3" scale="0" attach="0" />
      <heat value="49" />
      <reload rate="12" />
      <damage value="46" repair="0" />
      <effects>
        <impact ref="impact_gen_m_gatling_01_mk1" />
        <launch ref="muzzle_gen_m_gatling_01_mk1" />
      </effects>
      <weapon system="weapon_standard" />
    </properties>
  </macro>
</macros>

M Pulse laser turret fires 3 bullets with a 0.5 second reload time between bursts at the rate of 14 shots per second dealing 24 twice due to double barrels.
M Chain Bolt Turrets fire 15 bullets with 1 second reload time between bursts at the rate of 10 shots per second dealing 16 twice due to double barrels.
M Pulse Laser Gun Mk2 fires 4 bullets with a 0.7 second reload time between bursts at the rate of 12 shots per second dealing 64 damage each.
M Chain Bolt Gun Mk2 fires 24 bullets with a 1 second reload time between bursts at the rate of 12 shots per second dealing 46 damage each.

To work out average damage (DPS) one calculates the total damage per cycle and divides by time.

M Pulse Laser Turret -> 3 * 24 * 2 / (3 / 14 + 0.5) = 201.6 DPS
M Chain Bolt Turret -> 15 * 16 * 2 / (15 / 10 + 1) = 192 DPS
M Pulse Laser Gun Mk2 -> 4 * 64 / (4 / 12 + 0.7) = 247.7 DPS
M Chain Bolt Gun Mk2 -> 24 * 46 / (24 / 12 + 1) = 368 DPS

It looks like M Pulse Laser Turrets are stronger than M Chain Bolt Turrets.

This error appears to have been introduced after 1.30. Bisecting 1.30 and 2.00.

The damage for M Pulse Laser Turret was raised from 10 to 24 (140%) while the damage for M Gatling Turret was raised from 8 to 16 (100%).

With the old damage they did...
M Pulse Laser Turret -> 3 * 10 * 2 / (3 / 14 + 0.5) = 84 DPS
M Chain Bolt Turret -> 15 * 8 * 2 / (15 / 10 + 1) = 96 DPS
Hence Chain also used to be stronger as a turret.

[RoverTX]

M Pulse Laser Turret -> 3 * 24 * 2 / (3 / 14 + 0.5) = 201.6 DPS
M Chain Bolt Turret -> 15 * 16 * 2 / (15 / 10 + 1) = 192 DPS
M Pulse Laser Gun Mk2 -> 4 * 64 / (4 / 12 + 0.7) = 247.7 DPS
M Chain Bolt Gun Mk2 -> 24 * 46 / (24 / 12 + 1) = 368 DPS

It looks like M Pulse Laser Turrets are stronger than M Chain Bolt Turrets.

This error appears to have been introduced after 1.30. Bisecting 1.30 and 2.00.

The damage for M Pulse Laser Turret was raised from 10 to 24 (140%) while the damage for M Gatling Turret was raised from 8 to 16 (100%).

With the old damage they did...
M Pulse Laser Turret -> 3 * 10 * 2 / (3 / 14 + 0.5) = 84 DPS
M Chain Bolt Turret -> 15 * 8 * 2 / (15 / 10 + 1) = 96 DPS
Hence Chain also used to be stronger as a turret.

This needs to be posted as a bug so they can flag it to be fixed...

[Shuulo]

After doing the mod with full rebalance all vanilla weapons look like placeholder to me now. They don't even use half of possible "features" of the engine for weapons. Like charge-up time, direct damage to hull, increased damage to not-shielded target, different damage based on the range to target etc.
I really think they were rushing and weapon balance, sounds, feel and features were very low priority, so unless ego does a full rework it will remain as a placeholder IMO.
Good we have mods to fix this

[Warnoise]

I heard they are adding new weapons with the Split DLC. I can't believe they are adding new weapons without improving the current weapons...that'll be unfair.

[Lord Crc]

After doing the mod with full rebalance all vanilla weapons look like placeholder to me now. They don't even use half of possible "features" of the engine for weapons. Like charge-up time, direct damage to hull, increased damage to not-shielded target, different damage based on the range to target etc.

Yeah shame, makes outfitting ships so shallow. Beam weapons should by-pass shields but do less damage at range (due to loss of focus), shard and chain bolt should do extra damage to non-shielded targets, and the charge-up plasma of XR was fun.

Right now it's pulse or chain on all my ships, and mostly it's not a huge decision either way.

[mr.WHO]

My Personal ballance problems:
- Can't seem much difference between Pulse Laser and Bolt Repeater.
- pew pew pew capship plasma (suprisingly S and M ship Plasma is OK).
- turret missile defense doesn't work and need manual micromanagement.
- M-size turrets do too small dammage (mainly becasue there is a too few and pread too far on XL ships) - I can easilly ignore several M-turrets shooting at me while on fighter and I see AI also survive OK under fire.
- all this have identical missile storage (e.g. every single fighters has exactly 20 missile storage).
- mk.2 launchers should give bigger buff to missile storage (currently only +2 missile storage per mk.2 launcher).
- encyclopedia entries for missile is a must - what is the difference between Tracking missile, Heat seeker missile and Smart missile?

Optional:
- would be great if M and L size weapons have buffed FX and firing sound comparing to S-size weapons.

Example - Bolt repeater on fighter sounds and look the same and Bolt Repeater on Frigates, even if Frigate one is like dozen times larger.

[dholmstr]

Also, I wonder why they made guns (and shields) modules so damn big in comparison to the ships? I mean they could have been smaller physically..right? This could have open up to more slots available to have more variations and combinations. All fighters have like 2 - 4 guns. One odd 6. That's it. All fighters are 1 or 2 shield...that's just boring. This is also a thing with turrets, one size for all ships. Why no S- size for M ships (don't called them frigates), L ships with M and L turrets, XL ships big ass guns damnit. This could open up for more variations and different turrets for different use. Like m.WHO said, can't really see the difference between Pulse and Bolt.

You know why the Plasma gun in X:R worked? It was faster and capital ships actually moved slowly, didn't spin around like a food blender as the I in X4 (IS).

[mr.WHO]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

[Falcrack]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

I am totally with you there.

[dholmstr]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

[Imperial Good]

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

But the current ones are so much better except for range...

[Buzz2005]

Didn't XR Ks have a couple of main batteries? Or that was an L turret?

[Warnoise]

Didn't XR Ks have a couple of main batteries? Or that was an L turret?

Talking about weapon balance, am i the only who thinks capital ships should have their own "M" sized version of turrets? Currently their turrets range is too small. Big XL ships end up ramming each other because of the sheer low range of their turrets.

I think capital ships M turrets should be between 3~7km (depending on weapon) and L turrets between 7~10km (also depending on weapon)

[dholmstr]

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

But the current ones are so much better except for range...

Better how? Just asking. I know they do better becouse of bulletspeed and such, but daaaamn they are boring. The XR orange fiery fire plasma bolt was perfect capital gun. Again the capitals in XR were much slower.

Oh and there was those huge dubbelbarrel defence cannons for stations, HIVI/MA. They should so make it back to the game as serious defence platforms. We allready have the discconstruction so slap it there. Or jsut make a new stand alone platform.

[Shuulo]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

Maybe not what you are looking for but I brought some more weapons for xenons back from XR.
https://youtu.be/9Apk_ntaqLM
(Sound may be glitch as it was a test version of the weapon, should be resolved now)

[dholmstr]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

Maybe not what you are looking for but I brought some more weapons for xenons back from XR.
https://youtu.be/9Apk_ntaqLM
(Sound may be glitch as it was a test version of the weapon, should be resolved now)

I have been following VRO mod progres ... looking good. Lets see IF something sticks into vanilla some day. Or at least gives Egosoft some ideas where to go next. I'm not yet ready to go mods, sticking with vanilla until a bitter end. Like MARS for X3, I just had to get it when I had played for ages.

[Falcrack]

I seriously wish we would get back to X-Rebirth plasma for capships - it was much more effective and eye friendly.
One of the reason I hate X3 vanilla weapons was that PPC was just like X4 plasma - rapid fire, long rage, but with tragically slow bullet - that is literally the worst combination of all.

And while we're at it, bring back that awsome Xenon L turret. A beauty...

Maybe not what you are looking for but I brought some more weapons for xenons back from XR.
https://youtu.be/9Apk_ntaqLM
(Sound may be glitch as it was a test version of the weapon, should be resolved now)

Shuulo, your VRO mod is so much better than vanilla, in terms of weapons, I would love it if the devs took inspiration from the changes you made. I love the ranges, speed, impact effect, and sound effect of weapons for capital ship fights. It just looks. so. much. more. epic.

[Imperial Good]

Better how? Just asking. I know they do better becouse of bulletspeed and such, but daaaamn they are boring. The XR orange fiery fire plasma bolt was perfect capital gun. Again the capitals in XR were much slower.

They deal very good damage. They are basically L Plasma Turrets with Pulse Laser projectile speed and continuous fire. If players could use them there would be no reason to use any other turret.

[GDS_dmitry]

There is only one word - VRO mod. It does what X4 devs can't do. They even didn't try to actually do space fight at least as in X Rebirth or in X3. I even do not count weapon balance, there is no balance.

Again, in 2k 2019 (seriously, 6 years from Rebirth and we see....degradation?!) I expect this:
https://youtu.be/R1EiYqKgJ8o

[dholmstr]

Have to ask those that play 2.6 beta, any changes to weapons?Or how AI uses turrets?