Am I the only one, who think, that current capships are bad?

[grapedog]

My carriers and destroys, by themselves, have zero issues murdering fighters in droves... though I use beam weapons on my cap ships.

I'd like my destroyers to take a more active role in the fighting instead of tending to just fly around the periphery... but they wreck anything that gets close to them.

[DaMuncha]

The cap ships are not bad per say, theyre just not capital ships. The XL ships are lightly armed carriers.

[dholmstr]

As many others, I do like the current L-ships. BUT this is where there should be a role for them. The L-size fri....errr destroyers have huge main guns (just go for huge lore wize guns) that uses alot of power so less turrets. This makes it a ship to shot big and bad, but poor against fighters. I'm ok with that. But we would need another L ships that is more turret gunship to have an easier time agaisnt fighters but useless against the big gun ship. Sadly this is not the case right now. The main guns on those ships are ...lacking.Again this would need alot of tweaking with damage output and HP on ships.

Right now I have a small force of 1 carrier and 40 fighters and a destroyer plinking away at Xenon. Those 40 fighters rips apart OOS all K's and I's with no damage to them. But when I'm there looking at the show, those L turrets on that I rips everything apart. They are a bit too good against a bit too many things, range, bulletspeed etc. Give me X:R orange fiery plasma death bolt!

[grapedog]

I just want to put a small note here.... if you have never actually served in a navy, for any country.... I'd avoid trying to compare what is possible or what should be possible between an ACTUAL real life navy and a fictional futuristic space navy.

the OP post i'm actually commenting on has since been edited, but really, just.... if you never actually served, don't pretend to have any idea what it's like, or what "it's defenses should be like".... because I can assure you of you of one thing absolutely..... the last thing you want your ship relying on.... the absolute last ****** thing, is it's own self defense systems. frigate, destroyer, cruiser, carrier.... it doesn't matter. if it is in a fight alone, that's a bad ****** day...

please pardon my language.... but people comparing actual military life/performance to fictional military life/performance is on a VERY short list of things that actually bother me.... and should have no place in a conversation about a game.

[GDS_dmitry]

I just want to put a small note here.... if you have never actually served in a navy, for any country.... I'd avoid trying to compare what is possible or what should be possible between an ACTUAL real life navy and a fictional futuristic space navy.

the OP post i'm actually commenting on has since been edited, but really, just.... if you never actually served, don't pretend to have any idea what it's like, or what "it's defenses should be like".... because I can assure you of you of one thing absolutely..... the last thing you want your ship relying on.... the absolute last ****** thing, is it's own self defense systems. frigate, destroyer, cruiser, carrier.... it doesn't matter. if it is in a fight alone, that's a bad ****** day...

please pardon my language.... but people comparing actual military life/performance to fictional military life/performance is on a VERY short list of things that actually bother me.... and should have no place in a conversation about a game.

For your information, I was in the service. And I can assure you that the Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyers (DDGs) can deal with multiple targets (fighters, navy targets, land targets) pretty well. Even against MULTIPLE targets. On it's own. X3 cap ships (especially M2 destroyers) could do this too. X Rebirth destroyers could do that. X4 ones - not. I've described in detail why. Suddenly, the biggest ships in the game became the weakest, so it's worth asking the developers, why It happened. Once again, those people who think it's okay to have a fleet of 20+ destroyers in the game, so only they can really dwal with and destroy everything on their way and aren't afraid of anyone, are absolutely wrong. The destroyer can and must be able to defend himself from multiple targets on his own and have more than 6 turrets to shoot off the little things and missiles, because the size of these ships are much larger than the size of modern navy ships, and hence the artillery and anti-aircraft weapons they have to cover the maximum available area of the hull. As it was done in X Rebirth.

[grapedog]

I just want to put a small note here.... if you have never actually served in a navy, for any country.... I'd avoid trying to compare what is possible or what should be possible between an ACTUAL real life navy and a fictional futuristic space navy.

the OP post i'm actually commenting on has since been edited, but really, just.... if you never actually served, don't pretend to have any idea what it's like, or what "it's defenses should be like".... because I can assure you of you of one thing absolutely..... the last thing you want your ship relying on.... the absolute last ****** thing, is it's own self defense systems. frigate, destroyer, cruiser, carrier.... it doesn't matter. if it is in a fight alone, that's a bad ****** day...

please pardon my language.... but people comparing actual military life/performance to fictional military life/performance is on a VERY short list of things that actually bother me.... and should have no place in a conversation about a game.

For your information, I was in the service. And I can assure you that the Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyers (DDGs) can deal with multiple targets (fighters, navy targets, land targets) pretty well. Even against MULTIPLE targets. On it's own. X3 cap ships (especially M2 destroyers) could do this too. X Rebirth destroyers could do that. X4 ones - not. I've described in detail why. Suddenly, the biggest ships in the game became the weakest, so it's worth asking the developers, why It happened. Once again, those people who think it's okay to have a fleet of 20+ destroyers in the game, so only they can really dwal with and destroy everything on their way and aren't afraid of anyone, are absolutely wrong. The destroyer can and must be able to defend himself from multiple targets on his own and have more than 6 turrets to shoot off the little things and missiles, because the size of these ships are much larger than the size of modern navy ships, and hence the artillery and anti-aircraft weapons they have to cover the maximum available area of the hull. As it was done in X Rebirth.

lol, well, i enjoy your very misplaced optimism.

But again, please refrain from making comparisons between real life and fictional space life.

This is a game, and should be treated as such. Please don't use your opinion of real life navy to justify fictional space navy.

[Lord Crc]

I guess the biggest issue, at least in my game, is the huge disparity between in-zone and out-of-zone fighting. OOZ my single destroyer with a couple of minotaurs make mince meat of a K with a few M or P's for support without breaking a sweat. IZ my destroyer dies 80% of the time if not more.

[GDS_dmitry]

I just want to put a small note here.... if you have never actually served in a navy, for any country.... I'd avoid trying to compare what is possible or what should be possible between an ACTUAL real life navy and a fictional futuristic space navy.

the OP post i'm actually commenting on has since been edited, but really, just.... if you never actually served, don't pretend to have any idea what it's like, or what "it's defenses should be like".... because I can assure you of you of one thing absolutely..... the last thing you want your ship relying on.... the absolute last ****** thing, is it's own self defense systems. frigate, destroyer, cruiser, carrier.... it doesn't matter. if it is in a fight alone, that's a bad ****** day...

please pardon my language.... but people comparing actual military life/performance to fictional military life/performance is on a VERY short list of things that actually bother me.... and should have no place in a conversation about a game.

For your information, I was in the service. And I can assure you that the Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyers (DDGs) can deal with multiple targets (fighters, navy targets, land targets) pretty well. Even against MULTIPLE targets. On it's own. X3 cap ships (especially M2 destroyers) could do this too. X Rebirth destroyers could do that. X4 ones - not. I've described in detail why. Suddenly, the biggest ships in the game became the weakest, so it's worth asking the developers, why It happened. Once again, those people who think it's okay to have a fleet of 20+ destroyers in the game, so only they can really dwal with and destroy everything on their way and aren't afraid of anyone, are absolutely wrong. The destroyer can and must be able to defend himself from multiple targets on his own and have more than 6 turrets to shoot off the little things and missiles, because the size of these ships are much larger than the size of modern navy ships, and hence the artillery and anti-aircraft weapons they have to cover the maximum available area of the hull. As it was done in X Rebirth.

lol, well, i enjoy your very misplaced optimism.

But again, please refrain from making comparisons between real life and fictional space life.

This is a game, and should be treated as such. Please don't use your opinion of real life navy to justify fictional space navy.

Lol, I forgot to ask you what I should talk about and what I shouldn't. Funny.

If I see, that current cap ships (especially destroyers) are really bad in the game - I willl write about that. That, it takes from 2 to 5 minutes to take down 1-2 S ships with a destroyer, which can loose half of it's subsystems in process - it's nonsense and really bad design. That is was done right in previous titles. That it should not work that way, that you need a 20+ of destroyers, so they actually start doing something useful (but even then there are constant and silly repositioning which makes use of destroyers' main forward guns very ad hoc). Turrets without mods - are BAD in this game. Small number, of them, low damage, low rotation speed, absence of good VFX - it's bad. If you don't understand such basic things, I have nothing to talk about.

[xWolfzx]

Hey GDS_dmitry, I have not played for quite a few months but I recall that the L destroyers do not seem to take 2 - 5 mins to take down small fighters. So I decided to check for certain.

Destroyer used: Behemoth
Weapons used: Medium Pulse Turrets (I've decided not to use any large turrets since I felt that your gripe seem to revolve around Medium Turrets and not Large, which in my personal opinion should be anti corvette/anti capital).

Countdown starts the moment my turrets fire, be it hit or miss, the moment they start firing the stopwatch starts:
Targets:
Xenon P (Used a corvette just for benchmark): 46 secs
Xenon M 21 sec
Xenon M 13 sec
Xenon N 24 sec
Xenon N 30 sec
Xenon N 11 sec

I'm sure this is not conclusive as I've only used a test case of 5. But, at least for Medium Pulse Turrets, I can feel that it DOES NOT take 2 - 5 mins to kill a fighter class target, and I am quite certain if you use missiles (Since in a 'real life' situation, most ships will use missiles such the RIM types and are unlikely to use CIWS for those targets).

So perhaps you are talking about Beam or Gatling turrets, which I agreed are far weaker and needs to be brought up to par to the Pulse counterpart, but to state that they take 2 - 5 mins is quite an exaggeration in my opinion.

[Scoob]

X4's Destroyers are just Frigates - i.e. the old M7 class - in all but name. In vanilla they are weak, soft and can fall to a player flown light fighter. That's not a scary ship. When modified via the VRO Mod, Destroyers are still just Frigates in my book, but they are much much better at this role. They can both deal out and take damage. VRO makes them fun to use and actually feel like potent ships.

Compare this to the larger ships Rebirth offered though and X4's offering pales into insignificance. Rebirths ships were total beasts, monsters that could dominate all lesser ships. Even the "light" Destroyers like the Taranis were amazing, the Arawn "Carrier" - that could only carry Drones of course - was one of my favourites, and the Terran ships were terrifying. Rebirth really nailed the Capital Ship class.

Performance-wise, even on my old rig, the same one that plays X4 today, large ship battles performed far better than X4's small scale affairs. Sure, Rebirth suffered badly from late-game slow-down, but large battles between the big ships worked just fine until this inevitable slow down, far better than X4's vanilla skirmishes for sure.

One thing I noticed between X4 at launch and Rebirth was that Rebirth made much better use of CPU resources, loading much more evenly over all cores, whereas X4 was very spiky and dominated just one Core. X4 has improved in this regard however so, on the exact same hardware performance is much improved. I suspect that X4 could quite happily handle several Rebirth-sized Capital ships in sector at once now, even on a fairly humble PC.

I would LOVE to see many of Rebirth's large ships officially added to X4 as the real Destroyer class. I'd love to see the Arawn implemented in X4 where it can actually house fighters. The design of Rebirths capital ships was some of the best ship design work I've seen Egosoft do. It'd be a real shame if these ships died with Rebirth. X4 adds so much more game to the engine, it really is a huge step forward. However, it really can't touch Rebirth capital ships in my view.

To be clear, I do like X4's Destroyers, but in my view they belong to a different Class of ship - very much the M7 Frigate or light battleship, rather than a monster Destroyer class. They make for a good early-game big ship asset, but aren't the sector dominating force the larger ships in Rebirth could be. That's what I miss.

Scoob.

[LameFox]

X4's Destroyers are just Frigates - i.e. the old M7 class - in all but name.

That about sums up my experience with them so far. I don't dislike them as ships (any more than I dislike the game's very average balance in general) but I really wish there was something bigger that filled the role of the old destroyers, and didn't feel like a really big, sluggish fighter.

[Buzz2005]

xrebirth had a big flaw and thats useless fighters, even in great numbers
I like the x4 way that actually has a use for fighters but would like XL battle ships bc Ls just dont cut it

[GDS_dmitry]

xrebirth had a big flaw and thats useless fighters, even in great numbers

You're wrong. There was no way to properly control small fighters, yes.
But these fighters with heavy torpedoes can punch most big capital ships in X Rebirth. I remember these small beasts with rockets and missiles. Not to mention, XR rely on combat drones (especially those with heavy torpedoes).
See screenshots: https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4505D61B7/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4857C045C/

[Buzz2005]

xrebirth had a big flaw and thats useless fighters, even in great numbers

You're wrong. There was no way to properly control small fighters, yes.
But these fighters with heavy torpedoes can punch most big capital ships in X Rebirth. I remember these small beasts with rockets and missiles. Not to mention, XR rely on combat drones (especially those with heavy torpedoes).
See screenshots:

Spoiler

Show

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4505D61B7/

Spoiler

Show

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 4857C045C/

So I guess only 1 type of fighter and with only 1 type of weapon could do dmg
But ok Im wrong then
I never did bother with them in rebirth cause big ships did all the work, and all the fighter from NPCs die instantly

[tomchk]

I would LOVE to see many of Rebirth's large ships officially added to X4 as the real Destroyer class. I'd love to see the Arawn implemented in X4 where it can actually house fighters. The design of Rebirths capital ships was some of the best ship design work I've seen Egosoft do. It'd be a real shame if these ships died with Rebirth. X4 adds so much more game to the engine, it really is a huge step forward. However, it really can't touch Rebirth capital ships in my view.

Another vote for this from a long-time contributor. I wonder if there's some way to push Egosoft to do everything possible to prioritize porting X:R capital ships (and ideally sectors). Enough of the right people may be able to convince them this is the way to go!

[mr.WHO]

...

Wait, did they finally fixed drones in X-Rebirth - I never actually saw the "torpedo drone" in use ever (I stopped playing XR around 3.0).

[Buzz2005]

...

Wait, did they finally fixed drones in X-Rebirth - I never actually saw the "torpedo drone" in use ever (I stopped playing XR around 3.0).

can't be 100%, had fun with that hacking drone
and I guess I used the torpedo drone a couple of times

[Scoob]

xrebirth had a big flaw and thats useless fighters, even in great numbers

You're wrong. There was no way to properly control small fighters, yes.
But these fighters with heavy torpedoes can punch most big capital ships in X Rebirth. I remember these small beasts with rockets and missiles. Not to mention, XR rely on combat drones (especially those with heavy torpedoes).

I have to agree. By the time Rebirth was a little more mature, a few patches in, wings of Fighters could be quite devastating to lone Capital Ships - even the monsters. The AI, once the game had a few updates, was rather efficient at crippling the larger ships before killing them. So, taking out Turrets, Shields and Engines before the hull finally failed. Sure, it took a fairly large group of Fighter, appropriately equipped, to do this, but it happened.

Remember, X Rebirth's Capital Ship, for all their epicness, had an install / don't install approach to turret "customisation" and NOT the fully customisable loadout that were originally spoken about - it took until X4 to get this of course. So, an X Rebirth Capital Ship in X4 would, I hope, have access to this greater customisation, making for some fantastic loadout options.

Scoob.

[Jaswolf]

I have to agree. By the time Rebirth was a little more mature, a few patches in, wings of Fighters could be quite devastating to lone Capital Ships - even the monsters. The AI, once the game had a few updates, was rather efficient at crippling the larger ships before killing them. So, taking out Turrets, Shields and Engines before the hull finally failed. Sure, it took a fairly large group of Fighter, appropriately equipped, to do this, but it happened.

Indeed fighters were well coordinated and fun to watch.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYsjn9qbHb4

[Scoob]

Indeed fighters were well coordinated and fun to watch.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYsjn9qbHb4

Good video. I recall the frustration of having to manually tell your fighter not to park near the exploding ship! It does show the power of Rebirth's Capital ships though, when it takes that many fighters to take one down. I know the Xenon I is an extreme example being one, if not the toughest ship in the game. Considering X4 would allow each of those ships to have custom loadouts - perhaps specifically for capital ship killing - well, it's begging for "proper" capital ships to be brought back from Rebirth.

Scoob.