An idea to improve gameplay

[longliveX]

First of all , english is not my native language, if I don't express it clearly, please accept my apologies.

When we start a new game , Can we add some unowned sectors and add some random attributes to all sectors? there are many attributes we can add, for example:

1. sector A: +5% rate of fire of all destroyers
2. sector B: only the owner can build XL ships

The above are just some examples, I know that there are modified parts for players, these improvements are for the factions.

the benefits are as follows：

1.Every time we start a new game, exploring the sectors is a boring process. now it's different. players will actively explore the surrounding sectors.

2.All factions, include player , will has a clear purpose, some sectors will become extraordinarily important.AI can identify which sectors are critical to their power.we can foresee a fierce war in a certain sector.

3.Only one defense station can exist per sector,the sovereignty of the sector belongs to the owner of the defense station.and the owner can enjoy the special attribute bonus of the sector.only the owner and allies can build factories in this sector.

4.Since there is only one defense station in one sector, It should be very powerful, not the hull.but the range of any weapon should be within its fire range.attacking a defense station requires sacrificing many warships.

5.Extreme case, when all sectors of a faction are occupied, it can choose to re-establish its own kingdom by going to another unowned sector,as long as it has a construction ship and money.


I would like to elaborate on the above, but my English level is low and I can only describe it. thanks to everyone who has patiently read my text. and thanks to egosoft for making such a great game!

[Techedge]

I think your ideas are nice and not TOO difficult to implement (but I'm not a modder so can't tell really).

However I see them fit for a total conversion or at least a big mod, and not for the vanilla game.

[longliveX]

Thanks for your reply, maybe you are right. however, should I ask the modder to implement these functions instead of the person who developed the game?

[teleportationwars]

I thought I might explain the complexity of doing a few of these mods.

1. sector A: +5% rate of fire of all destroyers
2. sector B: only the owner can build XL ships

While these are not very good ideas in general they would take less than an hour to make.

2.All factions, include player , will has a clear purpose, some sectors will become extraordinarily important.AI can identify which sectors are critical to their power.we can foresee a fierce war in a certain sector.

This would take weeks to accomplish.

3.Only one defense station can exist per sector,the sovereignty of the sector belongs to the owner of the defense station.and the owner can enjoy the special attribute bonus of the sector.only the owner and allies can build factories in this sector.

Doable but the testing would take an insane amount of time just to make sure all the little bugs are worked out. Then you have to balance it in some way.

4.Since there is only one defense station in one sector, It should be very powerful, not the hull.but the range of any weapon should be within its fire range.attacking a defense station requires sacrificing many warships.

Not hard to do but wouldn't work very well in practice.

5.Extreme case, when all sectors of a faction are occupied, it can choose to re-establish its own kingdom by going to another unowned sector,as long as it has a construction ship and money.

It would take an absurd amount of time to make and almost never be seen or understood by anyone.

[Techedge]

Thanks for your reply, maybe you are right. however, should I ask the modder to implement these functions instead of the person who developed the game?

You can surely request new features to the developers, however given the nature of your request and the fact that they would turn the "original" game in a totally different one (your modifications remind me of a board game), I just told you they would better fit in a mod or a total conversion, maybe with other several modifications to balance the gameplay.

That's it, just my two cents and nothing more.

Plus, according to teleportationwars (who surely know what he is talking about), many of the requested features would take several time (if feasible at all) to be implemented, so they won't be probably taken into consideration by the developers...

[longliveX]

Thank you for your reply, I am very glad that you can have the patience to discuss with me.

Why do you think these changes will turn the game into something completely different?

Randomness is a feature that has been added to the game, I just extend it to the sector.I want to add attributes to the sector because we need to tell the AI ​​what it should pay attention to, rather than sending several destroyers to wander around the jump gate all day. and when several factions are interested in the same sector, we can expect a real war, and that is not what we expect?

The range of firepower of the defensive station has already been implemented in X rebirth. if I remember correctly, it called JET plasma gun or something.

The current situation is that I can used the main gun of the destroyer (7-8km)to destory a defensive station without receving any damage. time is the only thing I need. so we can now talk about the number of defensive stations, what is the difference between 1 and 10? there are ten defensive stations built in one sector, just the amount of stacking, isn't it? one is enough.

It's really diffcult to express in english

[Techedge]

Thank you for your reply, I am very glad that you can have the patience to discuss with me.

It's a pleasure to have a friendly talk, this is a forum after all, isn't it?

Why do you think these changes will turn the game into something completely different?

Randomness is a feature that has been added to the game, I just extend it to the sector.I want to add attributes to the sector because we need to tell the AI ​​what it should pay attention to, rather than sending several destroyers to wander around the jump gate all day. and when several factions are interested in the same sector, we can expect a real war, and that is not what we expect?

Actually the game generates (almost) random situations and they evolve in real time, in a way or another, with or without player's help. It means that a core/more useful sector early game could become a border/less useful sector late game.

You are proposing to add random yet fixed stats to sector, which would remain static for the rest of the playtime, thus making some sectors more strategic than others from the beginning to the end for that very stats and not (or not only) for their position or their owner. IMHO that would turn the game in a risk-like game, where you desperately need to capture some sector while almost forgetting another. You would then have a war for the sake of those stats and not because of the resources of the sector. Because those stats are now game changers, aren't them? If they aren't, then, there is no meaning for their existence...

It would work if the overall game was conceived differently (or modded) because that could, for example, undermine... production? It should be balanced in some other way (like, say, some negative stat for the owner to compensate for the positive one, making the choice of a sector even more strategic).

The range of firepower of the defensive station has already been implemented in X rebirth. if I remember correctly, it called JET plasma gun or something.

The current situation is that I can used the main gun of the destroyer (7-8km)to destory a defensive station without receving any damage. time is the only thing I need. so we can now talk about the number of defensive stations, what is the difference between 1 and 10? there are ten defensive stations built in one sector, just the amount of stacking, isn't it? one is enough.

That's a good point, I agree that the fire range of the defense stations should be increased. However, by forcing the limit of 1 defense station per sector, you are proposing an even more risk-like game: sectors would change owner more frequently and you would invest time and money in the most important (stat-related) sectors, leaving alone the others. Again, that should need balance. And what about owner's and allied stations who were the only who could build in that sector? Would they disappear in thin air (I know, there is no air in space... ) when the sector changes owner?

It's really diffcult to express in english

Don't worry, I'm not english too... so I can understand you very well!

[Thufar]

Well guys, I'm an English speaker - first language (and only). I'm here to tell ya that you're doing mighty fine.

Regards,
Thu

[longliveX]

Well guys, I'm an English speaker - first language (and only). I'm here to tell ya that you're doing mighty fine.

Regards,
Thu

Thank you very much for your encouragement! In fact, I always need the help of Google Translate.

[longliveX]

I may not have made it clear. I said that every time you start a new game, all sectors will generate random attributes, not fixed. both the AI ​​and the player need to decide how to proceed according to the actual situation, which really increases the gameplay. It also found a reason for us to start a new game again.

The two attributes I listed are just examples, and there are very many attributes that can be set.

You are right, this design will become the game changer, that is what I hope. the postion, the owner, the resources you mentioned, I can't see what they can change. it seems that the developer wants to protect the player or the economic system. I don't think so. If I am the boss of xenon, I see my fleet wandering around in a place all day... no purpose, no action. We are Xenon? we are star gate protectors.

Then we look at ARG, ANT and HOP. They keep building defense stations and doing the same things as Xenon. Maybe I should observe again. Will a real war happen in the last two weeks?

Everyone should do what they should do, but it is meaningless to simply let xenon send out 100 battleships. We need to make every behavior reasonable. Why does ARG want to protect this sector? Why does HOP attack that sector?

Then discuss the impact on the economic system, what is the problem of destroying the economy? We need xenon just for embellishment?

When the owner of the sector changes, the factory will certainly not disappear. for example, the attribute of this sector is to increase the production speed. Then these factories no longer enjoy this bonus, and the losing party can no longer build any factory until they have the defense station again.

[Techedge]

Well guys, I'm an English speaker - first language (and only). I'm here to tell ya that you're doing mighty fine.

Regards,
Thu

Thanks man!

I may not have made it clear. I said that every time you start a new game, all sectors will generate random attributes, not fixed. both the AI ​​and the player need to decide how to proceed according to the actual situation, which really increases the gameplay. It also found a reason for us to start a new game again.

Maybe it was me who was unclear on the point. I mean "fixed" from the moment you start the game onward, so that for the whole playthrough they will remain the same, predictable (worth or useless) in a fixed way (unless you start a new game). In a way that when you have identified "core" sectors, the game will evolve just around those and fights will happen just there. And how much time will YOU (because AI would already know from the beginning) need to identify those core sectors? 1 hour? 2 hours? And then what? Fight for (and in) the same sectors for the whole game? Don't you think that the actual mechanics -where factions always start fighting for the same setors, but after a while they (almost) randomly change hand making the rest of the game unpredictable- is better?

That's why I'm saying that the idea is not bad per se, but would need a total rebalance of game mechanics, diplomacy, economy...

Then we look at ARG, ANT and HOP. They keep building defense stations and doing the same things as Xenon. Maybe I should observe again. Will a real war happen in the last two weeks?

Everyone should do what they should do, but it is meaningless to simply let xenon send out 100 battleships. We need to make every behavior reasonable. Why does ARG want to protect this sector? Why does HOP attack that sector?

That's a game design flaw and I hope with the next patches we will get a more alive and believable universe (and maybe diplomacy will give a hand, with more fluid faction interactions).

Also, you have to consider the base mechanics of the game, i.e. giving AI a different reason to fight doesn't mean they will fight in a different way. I think they will just continue to send their fleets to the "core" sectors (identified as above) like they are actually sending waves of ships to their nearest border enemy. Hence the need for a thorough review of the game, if someone would ever apply those changes.

Then discuss the impact on the economic system, what is the problem of destroying the economy? We need xenon just for embellishment?

No no no, factions fighting and making the economy system to collapse is not a problem, given that the game is programmed to work in that manner.

By destroying economy I meant that applying changes to how factions behave could, in theory, break the game and render it unplayable (e.g. for the lack of resources, if not yet produced by the player). The actual rules are (more or less) tested to work in different scenarios AND given that behaviour: changing that, without balancing the rest, could bring unpredictable (and not always welcome!) results, hence I again think that these are not just little changes but need more planning (and more time, and more skills, if ever possible to implement).

When the owner of the sector changes, the factory will certainly not disappear. for example, the attribute of this sector is to increase the production speed. Then these factories no longer enjoy this bonus, and the losing party can no longer build any factory until they have the defense station again.

Then you could (in theory) invade a sector and destroy it's defense station just to hinder the former owner to enjoy the bonus, without necessarily building any station yourself (except the defense one). See how the game would differ from the actual one? See how it could become more (too?) focused on sectors? Won't this mechanics need specific balances, changing the game in a totally different one?

O.T.: I'm enjoying the discussion and I really like your ideas (as a big mod, in my view), however I'm afraid it will remain just this, a nice discussion...you know, right?

[longliveX]

the actual mechanics - factions always start fighting for the same setors, after a while they (almost) randomly change hand making the rest of the game unpredictable

you're right, they really make the game unpredictable. I keep watching all the sectors and the only conclusion I get is that I don't know what they want to do.

That's why I'm saying that the idea is not bad per se, but would need a total rebalance of game mechanics, diplomacy, economy...

I am not trying to prove that I am right，it's just a discussion.discussions help developers improve the quality of the game, even if they don't speak, I believe they can see it.

hen you could (in theory) invade a sector and destroy it's defense station just to hinder the former owner to enjoy the bonus, without necessarily building any station yourself (except the defense one). See how the game would differ from the actual one? See how it could become more (too?) focused on sectors? Won't this mechanics need specific balances, changing the game in a totally different one?

Why don't I build a factory? If there are resources there. building a defensive station is not only used to declare sovereignty, the enemy will not be able to build any building in this sector.

There is something I should have mentioned, my initial thoughts. if a player or a faction expects to build a destroyer or aircraft carrier, it should require special resources, not existing ones. Special resources may only exist in certain sectors. is it a good reason for the battle?

The reason why I didn't mention is that I think that adding one or more resource types may affect the entire game framework, so I changed it to "random sector attributes"

[Killjaeden]

Why should the attributes simply be dependant on sectors? Makes not much sense in-universe (read: its a very game-y idea)
Instead, it would be better to place special, rare, high value resources in those sectors. Those resources you can then use in factories "in addition" (or as substitute) to the original ware requirements for a product. When the special resources are present the resulting wares receive those additional stats.
E.g. Refined metal - if you have "unobtainium ore" , it gets consumed in addition to the other wares during production. The resulting product is like some special Alloy that has better properties -> results in "Refined Metal (X90 Alloy)" or some fancy other name. If used in hull production instead of regular "refined metal", the end product becomes "Hull Components (Improved)" or something. When ships or stations are build with those they get 10% more hull points or whatever.

Would require variant ware-handling however (factories recognizing both Refined Metal variants as valid / option to chose what to produce with what). This way at least it's not some shallow gimmick, and it would give objectives (capture enemy transport that carries rare resource to hurt enemy war effort). Or if some ingredient makes food so much more tasty, it makes your workers more efficient or you get more money for it, or whatever.

Crafting better things by those resources would also be an option, but then it's once again a player-centric feature and that is boring, if the other factions cant participate in any of it (because then there is no competition for those resources).

[Techedge]

I am not trying to prove that I am right，it's just a discussion.discussions help developers improve the quality of the game, even if they don't speak, I believe they can see it.

Neither did I. It's not a question of who is right and who is wrong, we are discussing an idea (an idea that I like btw), and I'm just enjoying the discussion as I hope you are doing.

Why don't I build a factory? If there are resources there. building a defensive station is not only used to declare sovereignty, the enemy will not be able to build any building in this sector.

There is something I should have mentioned, my initial thoughts. if a player or a faction expects to build a destroyer or aircraft carrier, it should require special resources, not existing ones. Special resources may only exist in certain sectors. is it a good reason for the battle?

The reason why I didn't mention is that I think that adding one or more resource types may affect the entire game framework, so I changed it to "random sector attributes"

Yes, I understand why you didn't mention it. That could be one of the balances I meant before but surely it would need much more work.

Why should the attributes simply be dependant on sectors? Makes not much sense in-universe (read: its a very game-y idea)
Instead, it would be better to place special, rare, high value resources in those sectors. Those resources you can then use in factories "in addition" (or as substitute) to the original ware requirements for a product. When the special resources are present the resulting wares receive those additional stats.
E.g. Refined metal - if you have "unobtainium ore" , it gets consumed in addition to the other wares during production. The resulting product is like some special Alloy that has better properties -> results in "Refined Metal (X90 Alloy)" or some fancy other name. If used in hull production instead of regular "refined metal", the end product becomes "Hull Components (Improved)" or something. When ships or stations are build with those they get 10% more hull points or whatever.

Would require variant ware-handling however (factories recognizing both Refined Metal variants as valid / option to chose what to produce with what). This way at least it's not some shallow gimmick, and it would give objectives (capture enemy transport that carries rare resource to hurt enemy war effort). Or if some ingredient makes food so much more tasty, it makes your workers more efficient or you get more money for it, or whatever.

Crafting better things by those resources would also be an option, but then it's once again a player-centric feature and that is boring, if the other factions cant participate in any of it (because then there is no competition for those resources).

This makes so much sense!

[longliveX]

My earliest idea was to add rare, special resources, which means that the game had to add entirely new logic to handle such resources, including factories that deal with such resources. I think this change is too big. I just want to make a change with tiny changes.

And I don't agree with special resources to produce special ships. shipyards should only be able to produce ordinary ships. we should let the Marines keep its meaning. even now, who will go to work hard to seize a ship when he can get tens of millions per hour?

So the biggest problem with the game now is that when you have a lot of money, you can solve everything, I think this is not a good design. because money is so easy to get, though I really enjoy the joy of making money, but that is not the whole game, we must have a strategy to spend the player's money.

In order to do this, let's see, quests give player money and factories give more, obviously only war can achieve this goal.

One way is to make the defense station very powerful, but some players will ask: why should I attack it? we replied: the attribute of this sector is to allow the owner's shipyard to produce the aircraft carrier. without it, ARG and its allies, you can no longer produce the aircraft carrier, get it back, or wait for Xenon to destroy you (always mention the aircraft carrier, because I think this attribute is more representative)

Another way is to increase the size of the enemy fleet, but it is a subjective behavior to increase the number of enemies at will. I have already mentioned it before. If the HOP sends 20 destroyers, there should be a reasonable explanation, not "I want to send 20 destoryers to destory a factory because I don't like it". it should be "We really need the attributes of sector A , however, this sector now belongs to the enemy, and its defense station requires 20 destroyers to deal with."

That's why I want to add attributes to the sector.

But I think that the NPC's warships (above the destroyers) should have some rare attributes. Players can't produce them in the shipyard, they can only use the Marines to seize, so players always have the motivation to do such things.

Let's imagine: we have shipyards, billions of currencies, but when dealing with HOP, our fleet were beaten very badly, because the missile range and power of the HOP elite destroyer far exceeds the ordinary destroyers we produce. we have lost 50% even without firing, let us the marines come! go and catch some guys who are single，form an elite fleet! I don't know what you think, but I think that is very attractive!

(believe or not, it took me about 4 hours to finish above content. I hope there are no grammar and word errors...thanks for reading it. )

[Techedge]

Thinking of it, you're probably right on special resources for special ships.

Generating NPC's ships with special attributes could be more interesting and should make boarding (and marines) more valuable. They should be not only unique (maybe per type of ship?) but also significant to push players to board them.

However, given how the game manages the building of ships from real resources, I wonder how to generate those random attributes.

An answer to this question could be implementing ship modifications to NPCs. And another suggestion could be to give NPCs the ability to board other NPCs and player's ships.
I really hope that these two will make their way into the game sooner or later.

[longliveX]

Yes, boarding! I have been searching for words to try to find a word to describe this. at first it was "catch ship", "seize ship", "grab ship"... finally I know how to correctly describe this action.

Let's talk about the topic. when players can easily produce any ship, boarding obviously loses its meaning. we must find out ways to ensure their attraction. this game content is very important.

Why do I recommend that only ships above the destroyer should have attributes, because fighters or frigates are too easy to be destroyed in battle even if it has very rare attributes, I think these types of ships should exist as consumables, it is the difference between "general ship" and "battleship".

[Axeface]

I think this kind of thing should be restricted to resources (which the game already has). Asteroid/gas fields and solar power. The other ideas sound very gamey and I really dont like that kind of stuff at all - things need to be rooted in the universe, not there just for gameplay sake. I really despise gamey games ;p

[mr.WHO]

the OP ideas sounds good for some kind of strategy game for mobile, but not good for X4.

Why we would have to get a magical bonus from arbitrary selected sector?
Someone said to introduce rare resources, but this is basically the same - why having one special resource give you magical buff to some stats?

This doesn't fit X4 at all.

[Killjaeden]

Someone said to introduce rare resources, but this is basically the same - why having one special resource give you magical buff to some stats?

No magical buff. That resource increases (for example) the strength of hull plating - its an ingredient and produces a harder, more durable version of the standard one. Or some special crystal makes lasers a bit better than standard. But only if the items are produced with that resource. You shouldnt get a bonus to all your ships/equipment just by having aquired 1 item, obviously.

Having such boni by rare resources would give more incentive to go after them than just some crafting materials imo.

They could be gradually revealed by research - so that a new player wouldnt run into them early, where they could get confused by them. Once you got the ropes of the economy, it is easy to understand alteration/expansion to it.
There was so much potential in the secondary resources in X3, it was a real shame it wasnt utilized economicaly in some way. They where only utilized as "mission token" for transport missions at best.
Fertilizer, radiocative waste, etc etc