So I bought Elite: Dangerous

[Kadatherion]

real expansions, not fire and forget DLCs

Firstly, most developers do not develop and maintain their own game engine, which is a highly expensive thing to do but sometimes absolutely necessary in order to achieve design goals.

Secondly, we do not know the precise nature of the DLCs ES have planned for X4 but ES do not really have a "fire and forget DLC" reputation. The premium DLC planned does seem to be intended to be "real expansions".

In no point whatsoever I have said I was referring to Egosoft's DLCs when talking about "fire and forget DLCs". I actually expect them to be VERY beefy. I even specifically said that X4 expansions - also given that very track record and reputation you mention - look like are going to be valuable enough to justify the otherwise often uncalled for "premium/legendary/collector's editions" many AAA titles I was criticizing usually ship with. The only "pot shot" I've taken as a side note at Egosoft for their DLCs is that this time they are announced to have content that in previous titles was already in - and meant to be in - at launch in the base game. They might surprise us even more favourably, if so all the better, but as of now the first DLC is informally called "the Split DLC" for a reason.

So, yeah, man: I know I'm extremely verbose, it's no coincidence I'm a writer, but, you know... read what you are going to reply to, please? Gonna be quicker for everyone involved.

Finally, ALOT of games these days have purchasable cosmetics, pay-to-win, or pay-to-play type models to supplement their income and help keep paying for on-going support. Historically, ES have kept their model as either base game only or base game plus optional expansions (often free but the gravy train had to stop sometime). Given modding, I can not see them making a success of any model but the premium expansion approach.

Neither do I. But I wasn't the one who suggested the possibility to monetize on ventures with premium currencies to shorten their waiting times, or making their cosmetics/rewards purchasable via microtransactions, Egosoft did. I was even one of those moderates who replied "well, shucks, I don't agree and I can't see it being successful, but if you really have to, keep it absolutely cosmetic only, and do it so in no way this could harm or hinder the modding community by locking content out of their reach".
They suggested doing it, they tested the waters, and got quite the harsh reception for it: the average negative sentiment was "you ship a broken game, with fewer features and content than ever, and now you even consider the nickle and dime road? How about screw you guys, I'm going home?". Note the condition on which that negativity is based on, it's no coincidence.

Microtransactions are by now a very politically uncorrect word (in fact, now they are trying to call them "recurring user spending" in the industry, to distance them from what has become a tainted word), and that's because ALOT of games don't just come with that business model, but they also launch gutted BECAUSE of that business model. When a game launches in a good state and feature complete, usually you hardly hear anybody complaining about a few extra bucks you could (but don't have to) throw at it for extra cosmetics. I didn't see anybody ripping their hair out because Persona 5 also had a few silly (and even arguably overpriced) cosmetic micro dlcs, because the base game was so filled to the brim with content that it more than deserved it (and sure didn't need some dlcs to be thoroughly enjoyable for no less than 150 hrs: the sheer length of P5 was a meme of its own when it launched, to play P5R in 2020 we'll need to take a month off work ). I didn't see great complaints about the many silly purchasable cosmetics in Borderlands 2, because the base game was feature full, and they were offered next to real, full value DLCs, like Tiny Tina's (which is widely considered one of the best DLCs ever made), they've become an issue only now because of the usual Randy Pitchford dumbfuckery.

The list could go on a while, but the point is a very simple one: if and when large chunks of the playerbase complain about the state of a game and/or its business model, more often than not (not always, but often) there is a damn good reason for it. Complaints en masse very seldomly are just for the sake of it, because there's no evil mastermind guiding them all in a specific direction, as such they simply are the natural, collective response of the market. I can't think of any relevant case of it unless it's because of some political agenda that has nothing to do with the actual game quality itself (IE: incels and /pol/ trolls crying because a game has strong female leads, or feminists crying for the very opposite, two faces of the same BS).

[MakerLinux]

These two are both very bold statements. We are yet again digressing, but bear with me. Let's start from the latter, the amount of content in X4 supposedly being "consistent with most current products of the same level": and let's say that yes, it more or less might be, although some (good) games are out there with much more content, coming out in a much more stable state and so on.

Can you name a few? I'd love to know. Space games, not RPGs, please.

I would like to know as well, I'm always thirsty for space sims and I'm sure there are a few others I have missed.

Only ones I find worthwhile is the X series, Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini Warlords. Others are either yet more story-driven dogfighters or some online thing.

With upcoming sequels of both Rebel Galaxy and Starpoint Gemini having devolved into yet more story-driven dogfighters themselves, we are left with X4 only. Surely there must be others?

Spacebourne seems like it could be interesting but, it's still Early Access and I haven't researched it that much yet. Evochron with it's planetary landings is pretty neat as well but, it's also limited to fighter-sized craft. I spent enough years in the cockpit of a fighter, pilotable capital ships is where it's at these days.

Also there is Hellion, still in Early Access. And that one-developer game that is really really REALLY good, Void Destroyer 2, and it's already leaving early access (it's in beta now). I also have Rebel Galaxy and No Man's Sky, excellent games but they scratch a different itch.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

The only "pot shot" I've taken as a side note at Egosoft for their DLCs is that this time they are announced to have content that in previous titles was already in - and meant to be in - at launch in the base game.

The part I have issue with is the "meant to be in" part - that is a fallacy given all the facts in play. Preconceptions of what features/content a product should have do not mean that product should have said features/content - I do not believe ES have EVER stated X4 would have either Split, Boron, or Terran factions as part of the base product. What previous X-games may or may not have had as content does not count as a qualifier for what should be included as part of the base X4 product either.

Also I should add that I have never even really mentioned monetisation of ventures, except perhaps in response to another post - I am against the X-Online concept being part of X4 in the first place.

[Kadatherion]

The only "pot shot" I've taken as a side note at Egosoft for their DLCs is that this time they are announced to have content that in previous titles was already in - and meant to be in - at launch in the base game.

The part I have issue with is the "meant to be in" part - that is a fallacy given all the facts in play. Preconceptions of what features/content a product should have do not mean that product should have said features/content - I do not believe ES have EVER stated X4 would have either Split, Boron, or Terran factions as part of the base product. What previous X-games may or may not have had as content does not count as a qualifier for what should be included as part of the base X4 product either.

Again, mate, reading comprehension, PLEASE!
"Content that *in previous titles* was meant to be in at launch and indeed it was". As you see, I didn't say in any way that the Split and the Boron (and maybe the Terran, but the Terran are kind of a different thing) were meant to be in X4 at launch. The playerbase could have expected them, but Egosoft was very clear in announcing they wouldn't be (and pretty obvious well since before launch they'd be the main point of the future expansions that would have added "more races"... who could ever guess what races they might have been referring to, tra-la-laaaa? ).

This doesn't change the point: that such core content once was in X games at launch, now it's not anymore and will come via DLC. There's nothing to defend or accuse of, it's the simple statement of a fact. One third of the main races comprising the core X universe were not in the game at launch (I'm being good and not counting the Terrans, or minor factions like the Yaki; if we wanted to be anal about it, maybe even pointing out how little of the Kha'ak are left or how previously even pirates had some unique assets, the asset by asset ratio would probably be closer to 50%, but it doesn't make much of a difference).

Given this undeniable fact, anybody can then make his own judgement. Did the game suffer from it? Was the game still feature rich enough in other departments to compensate for it? That's open to discussion, and if I had to say my piece I'd say someone like you who thinks even highways are here for serious "lore reasons", should be the most baffled such core lore content that's arguably much more important than highways is missing, but again I'm not really discussing that. We were discussing why people complain about the state of the game. To many people no, the game was the opposite of feature rich enough to compensate, and from here come the complaints: people are complaining the game isn't good enough, isn't feature and assets rich enough, they aren't complaining about the Split and the Boron per se. Sure, when the game is found lacking content it's obvious to think about those races as the first thing that comes to mind, but the important point is: the game, in the opinion of a large chunk of its playerbase, is lacking. Proof of it, if it wasn't obvious enough already, quite some complaints come from completely new players to the franchise as well, not just us old farts, heh?

Also I should add that I have never even really mentioned monetisation of ventures, except perhaps in response to another post - I am against the X-Online concept being part of X4 in the first place.

Sure, again, Egosoft did first. You replied to my points stating, as if it was some sort of justification, that "ALOT of games these days have MTXs", while Egosoft instead had, until now, sticked to a much better value for your money DLC model. That's undeniably true. Good for ES, they'll only get praise from me about it as long as it lasts. It just happens that they too now are considering it, so even that "justification" (hope? Faith?) starts feeling a bit... volatile to say the least, and that potential issue ends chipping in a bit in the general reception. That their current, fair model is going to still last long was now put into doubt, with arguably the worst possible timing. I myself first mentioned that by now I doubt they'll really go for it, and that was my point, again in defense of the right (and usefuleness) of player complaints: without those complaints they might have gone that direction full speed ahead. Now... not so much, I think. Hopefully.

Seriously, you keep approaching this the wrong way, you look like you're on a crusade: I talk about why the industry is having issues and why players complaints are on the rise (a discussion born from your statement that videogame players who complain are often "arrogant and entitled" as a whole), and you still are going back and trying to defend X4 individually (from things I actually never said about X4 specifically, to top it off). I don't care that much anymore, honestly?

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Anticipated releases for this year.
Rebel Galaxy outlaws is on my watch list.
https://youtu.be/-8-BifxmbrY

[Buzz2005]

Anticipated releases for this year.
Rebel Galaxy outlaws is on my watch list.
https://youtu.be/-8-BifxmbrY

wow after seeing that just got the first one on Steam

[Ketraar]

wow after seeing that just got the first one on Steam

Played the first one and its fun for a while, but it gets rather grindy midgame where one has to do rather repetive stuff just to get more money to get bigger guns to kill bigger stuff. Since enemies and difficulty scales as player upgrades there is no real sense of getting anywhere. The story is OKish, dont ask me what it was since I forgot. Also there is no point to play after its over as there is hardly anything else to do. Its a fun game and has a bit of the Space Cowbow vibe, mostly due to its Score.

As for Elite I actually invested some hours into it a few months back and went for the Elite Explorer Rank, mostly so I could parlk my stuff at Jameson Memorial and be able to have access to all stuff and not have to spend HOURS just to get all the equipment I wanted, which ws tedious to say the least. Now the way I got Elite rank was mostly due to exploring and doing Sightseeing Missions. Exploring is the single most profitable activity you can do. 11k Ly mission for 25Mio means 22k route and a gazillion jumps (around 500 on my ~50ly DBX). If you take a scanner with you and scan at least the high value stuff (water, EL, and terraforming candidates) meant around 200Mio scan data for me which means 2/3 to Elite Rank. That journey though was the most atrocious experience I had in any game. Having to fire up youtube and watch/listen to podcasts just to not die of boredom is ridiculous, that some planets now have my name next to is not really a consolation since the chances of anyone else noting it are slim at best and if they do I doubt they'll care, so bragging rights are not really worth it.

As many said, yes its OK and has some interesting flight sim and OK atmo, but its shallow and if you want to do real exploration it feels as I'm on a job, which should never feel when I'm playing games, I get paid for a job...

Long story short, yes its fun, if you like combat its probably more fun than if you just like to explore.

MFG

Ketraar

[Buzz2005]

wow after seeing that just got the first one on Steam

Played the first one and its fun for a while, but it gets rather grindy midgame where one has to do rather repetive stuff just to get more money to get bigger guns to kill bigger stuff. Since enemies and difficulty scales as player upgrades there is no real sense of getting anywhere. The story is OKish, dont ask me what it was since I forgot. Also there is no point to play after its over as there is hardly anything else to do. Its a fun game and has a bit of the Space Cowbow vibe, mostly due to its Score.

As for Elite I actually invested some hours into it a few months back and went for the Elite Explorer Rank, mostly so I could parlk my stuff at Jameson Memorial and be able to have access to all stuff and not have to spend HOURS just to get all the equipment I wanted, which ws tedious to say the least. Now the way I got Elite rank was mostly due to exploring and doing Sightseeing Missions. Exploring is the single most profitable activity you can do. 11k Ly mission for 25Mio means 22k route and a gazillion jumps (around 500 on my ~50ly DBX). If you take a scanner with you and scan at least the high value stuff (water, EL, and terraforming candidates) meant around 200Mio scan data for me which means 2/3 to Elite Rank. That journey though was the most atrocious experience I had in any game. Having to fire up youtube and watch/listen to podcasts just to not die of boredom is ridiculous, that some planets now have my name next to is not really a consolation since the chances of anyone else noting it are slim at best and if they do I doubt they'll care, so bragging rights are not really worth it.

As many said, yes its OK and has some interesting flight sim and OK atmo, but its shallow and if you want to do real exploration it feels as I'm on a job, which should never feel when I'm playing games, I get paid for a job...

Long story short, yes its fun, if you like combat its probably more fun than if you just like to explore.

MFG

Ketraar

Well I need something since got fed up with X4, just played rebel seems nice but I guess its over when I finish it but no problem I installed good old freelancer with crossfire
Man that game did not age well as graphics go but god damn still super fun and the atmosphere is awesome
Elite seems just too much grind to get into it and if all else fails there is a new DLC for cities:skyline

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Well I read the first Rebel Galaxy has no up or down flight, I think the 2015 era your best games to go too are probably Freelancer with Crossfire, if you want arcade SP/MP Online (the MP side has bases you can own) experiences, and X3:AP if you want the fully simulated ecosystem. Tho there are other good games too, a few shows promise this year to as good as X or at least on par maybe time will tell, I am always on the lookout for that semi-perfect balance of X and arcade.

wow after seeing that just got the first one on Steam

Played the first one and its fun for a while, but it gets rather a grindy midgame where one has to do rather repetitive stuff just to get more money to get bigger guns to kill bigger stuff. Since enemies and difficulty scales as player upgrades, there is no real sense of getting anywhere. The story is OKish, don't ask me what it was since I forgot. Also, there is no point to play after it's over as there is hardly anything else to do. It's a fun game and has a bit of the Space Cowbow vibe, mostly due to its Score.

As for Elite I actually invested some hours into it a few months back and went for the Elite Explorer Rank, mostly so I could park my stuff at Jameson Memorial and be able to have access to all stuff and not have to spend HOURS just to get all the equipment I wanted, which was tedious, to say the least. Now the way I got Elite rank was mostly due to exploring and doing Sightseeing Missions. Exploring is the single most profitable activity you can do. 11k Ly mission for 25Mio means 22k route and a gazillion jumps (around 500 on my ~50ly DBX). If you take a scanner with you and scan at least the high-value stuff (water, EL, and terraforming candidates) meant around 200Mio scan data for me which means 2/3 to Elite Rank. That journey though was the most atrocious experience I had in any game. Having to fire up youtube and watch/listen to podcasts just to not die of boredom is ridiculous, that some planets now have my name next to is not really a consolation since the chances of anyone else noting it are slim at best and if they do I doubt they'll care, so bragging rights are not really worth it.

As many said, yes it's OK and has some interesting flight sim and OK atmo, but it's shallow and if you want to do real exploration it feels as I'm on a job, which should never feel when I'm playing games, I get paid for a job...

Long story short, yes it's fun if you like to combat its probably more fun than if you just like to explore.

MFG

Ketraar

Agreed, I personally never got into the exploration side of things, I mean sure it is alright to take a break from blowing stuff up to land on a surface and explore and things but for most part gimping my ship enough to get sufficient travel distance was totally not worth it, as if I ran into any interesting events what was I going to do, ask nicely to not tickle me?

Aside from that, I think even that can get tedious if playing solo, the most profitable way to do this and what I would say to my friends as going to work for an hour was entering high danger war zones and basically snipe everything until you **** up and something gets the jump on you or you to get the jeebs enough to run home before potentially get blown up and losing all your bounty tickets. To do this you need to already have a bounty scanner I would say at least a 4km range so a class B or something then you fire on anything that moves with a bounty which is actually pretty easy if you go in with a Conda or if you want to actually be able to run away, Cobra MK3 or Viper 3/4 spend most of your coin in wepon and shield upgrades first then work on tuning others. Then you rinse repeat bounty collecting for a few hours, find a system which has 1-3 of these lucrative areas within the system and park it at any station, key thing to be aware is if you die you lose all the bounty tickets you have not collected on at a station, but if you get away with killing the bigger ships like an imperial clippers and other vipers they can net up to 300k bounty a kill.

Visually Elite is pretty good for a sim/arcade style space game, however, like real life, nothing really happens in the universe unless you make it happen and most of the time is spent either in minor combat skirmishes or travel.
Still, I would say its a good game. Newer updates see that explore scanner is used for firing probes now instead and you have this utility every player gets as part of the ship hud now to switch out of combat and into an explore mode letting you scan things over the galaxy without actually going to it, and I have not tried it but I saw it on Youtube might give it an install again eventually.

I am still hoping X4 will turn out good, right now it is I guess hard to say, I mean the fan of Egosoft of in me wants to like it but I also see how far it has to go to get up to snuff with its older brother X3:Ap and how far the modding community has to evolve for this title yet, I have my gripes, its not a bag game but it does lack on areas even X3 was competent at being making the atmosphere in sectors feel different as in X4 most of it is all black with the odd planet or two. We step backwards from Rebirth in some ways, Ships designs mostly and even I think the interiors of Rebirth on ships were sort of better in some ways bridge wise, and due to tech limitations they ditched the ship hangers over landing pads which is probably a part I grew to dislike more than I really should have.

[MakerLinux]

...and due to tech limitations they ditched the ship hangers over landing pads which is probably a part I grew to dislike more than I really should have.

Yeah, pathing to interiors of ships must be pretty difficult considering the amount of likely dynamic objects and such, but you have to agree that the opening and closing hatches of "storage space" in ships is impressive.

Also, these "tech limitations" mimic real-time physical limitations. If you have energy shields technology, landing pads would be preferable, too. One of the most convoluted and risky stages of real-world ship flying is taking off and landing. Imagine you're in a battle, almost dead and need to land for repair and restocking, and amongst a zillion fighters you have to align with the (maybe moving) carrier to enter a relatively tight opening. Not good, not practical, and the path will likely be blocked. Going to a shielded landing pad where you can get from any direction and align the ship only when very close to land is much more feasible.

Now, what I don't like about the current design of X4 capitals is that they look small if taken by shape alone, usually because of the smooth walls with no bumps and lumps, and the very round curves of some ships which also have "big bellies" (which is from the paranid, to match their stations - but even their station modules have better details and are not completely round/smooth). And the mushroom shape of Teladi ships seems so uninspired that I can't even bother to buy or build them... The less worst designs of capital ships seems to be from the Argon, which in some sections resemble real-world carriers and battleships.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

For anyone reading not familiar with X3:AP and Lite Cube Universe let me freshen your mind on why X3 is superior to X4 right now and probably will be for a LOOONG time.
https://youtu.be/cN6wTRdVRPE
https://youtu.be/WkrrVwAwy-k
Complete list https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... LKcAYOVtbH
old Steam thread https://steamcommunity.com/app/201310/d ... 7/?l=czech

...and due to tech limitations they ditched the ship hangers over landing pads which is probably a part I grew to dislike more than I really should have.

Yeah, pathing to interiors of ships must be pretty difficult considering the amount of likely dynamic objects and such, but you have to agree that the opening and closing hatches of "storage space" in ships is impressive.

Also, these "tech limitations" mimic real-time physical limitations. If you have energy shields technology, landing pads would be preferable, too. One of the most convoluted and risky stages of real-world ship flying is taking off and landing. Imagine you're in a battle, almost dead and need to land for repair and restocking, and amongst a zillion fighters you have to align with the (maybe moving) carrier to enter a relatively tight opening. Not good, not practical, and the path will likely be blocked. Going to a shielded landing pad where you can get from any direction and align the ship only when very close to land is much more feasible.

Now, what I don't like about the current design of X4 capitals is that they look small if taken by shape alone, usually because of the smooth walls with no bumps and lumps, and the very round curves of some ships which also have "big bellies" (which is from the paranid, to match their stations - but even their station modules have better details and are not completely round/smooth). And the mushroom shape of Teladi ships seems so uninspired that I can't even bother to buy or build them... The less worst designs of capital ships seems to be from the Argon, which in some sections resemble real-world carriers and battleships.

They had internal bays in Rebirth that is why I question what is going on now, the hanger doors look neat but It should not be the option for larger cap ships the carriers should be able to fly inside, if we are going to talk concept of shields then just like in Star Trek (the new one) shields get lowered when a ship leaves the bay yes, creates vulnerabilities but shield has to be lowered around a ship for anything coming in or out so that would still apply even for ships landing on a docking bay and it must be true because player can wander the bay area on foot so it must have life support and gravity thus it is contained within the energy well of the ship and not simply just outer space.

If this is not the case someone corrects me but also then I am going to be asking why then does the HUD not change to a helmet view and I should be hearing boots magnetic clamping as I walk about. Tho I believe your statement about harder to lan would be wrong at least in this case, maybe in our universe (real life) it would be a nightmare situation but for X universe these ships can match speed almost immediately they are all flight assisted to counter drift at the speeds we are talking about for docking there would be no drift as you can practice this in space yourself and slowing below 100kh yields zero drift also when around the gravity well of a station it pulls you towards it and the kinds of ships being class S would be so much smaller than the carrier by a magnitude factor that the opening would be large enough the same as a station docking module in size and no issue landing there under attack right?

It would be plausible for topside landing bays if there were not just one or two bays a ship to dock on, let me give an example if you have six ships wanting to land for repair but only 2 at time can proceed they are left in space to out in the open while the door opens and drags the ship down to free the spot, if you have hanger module style landing in the belly which IMO looks cooler anyway, the size of the ships are small you could just hall ass 3 at at a time inside the bellow and slow down to land once inside.

[Kadatherion]

Yeah, pathing to interiors of ships must be pretty difficult considering the amount of likely dynamic objects and such, but you have to agree that the opening and closing hatches of "storage space" in ships is impressive.

Also, these "tech limitations" mimic real-time physical limitations. If you have energy shields technology, landing pads would be preferable, too. One of the most convoluted and risky stages of real-world ship flying is taking off and landing. Imagine you're in a battle, almost dead and need to land for repair and restocking, and amongst a zillion fighters you have to align with the (maybe moving) carrier to enter a relatively tight opening. Not good, not practical, and the path will likely be blocked. Going to a shielded landing pad where you can get from any direction and align the ship only when very close to land is much more feasible.

Now, what I don't like about the current design of X4 capitals is that they look small if taken by shape alone, usually because of the smooth walls with no bumps and lumps, and the very round curves of some ships which also have "big bellies" (which is from the paranid, to match their stations - but even their station modules have better details and are not completely round/smooth). And the mushroom shape of Teladi ships seems so uninspired that I can't even bother to buy or build them... The less worst designs of capital ships seems to be from the Argon, which in some sections resemble real-world carriers and battleships.

My biggest issue with the modular, external landing pads is that they are at least partly responsible for the loss in ship design quality we are experiencing. They sure could have been done better anyway, but the various modular pieces have further forced the designs to become blocky and overly simplified. Now, if actual AI pathing for ship -> ship landing did get a lot better than it once was, that'd be at least some consolation but.. it pretty much still is as painful as ever. So, yeah, we sacrificed a lot with very little return.

[dholmstr]

While Lite Cubs Universe was an awsome mod, prolly the best one, stop comparing that to X4. Everyone did not play with mods at all, or very little. View the games as they were vanilla not with a such extensive mod that pretty much made it into another game. Yes there were many things well done with that mod, many concepts that don't have to do with graphics or other hardware changes.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

While Lite Cubs Universe was an awsome mod, prolly the best one, stop comparing that to X4. Everyone did not play with mods at all, or very little. View the games as they were vanilla not with a such extensive mod that pretty much made it into another game. Yes there were many things well done with that mod, many concepts that don't have to do with graphics or other hardware changes.

Fair enough,
Ship Pathing
X4: Poor, at times horrendous with Ai controlled ship orders being defied by looping back to attack an enemy that is not within any reasonable threat range to that ship (otherwise following the global default actions for attacked) rather than do the order, asked of it
X3: Has no such issues ships do not loop around to attack something which is not within range nor does it actively defy a direct order to engage a target.

Fleet Control
X4: uhh just going to skip this one as X4 really does not have any as every order applies to the fleet leader unable to set individual wing orders,
X3: Limited but possible to set orders for wings separate from the commander of the fleet.

Performance:
X4: Mediocre, especially random dips around fully rendered stations and large job ques run in the background, with the most crucial part of the entire game being the Map menu running the worst of them all if you choose to use deployables a lot. Quad core CPU's will struggle with this game after several or more hours have past if you clutter the map, actually I take that back I had a quad-core i7 when I first tried this game and no matter which gfx settings besides lowering the draw distance I would not call it playable frame rate sitting in the mid 40s dropping into the 20s on stations usable yes playable under combat situations unlikely and knowing what I know now it would have only gotten worse as game time went on. (IMHO I don't think this game would even run above 30 without Vulkan API which may be why they even used Vulkan in the first place as that or DX12 would be the only two with enough control to tame it to run what it does already without a stop motion picture game experience. I might have to add even with Vulkan API used you'd never know if you did not check as it runs like a slower renderer. New CPU I have okay it runs alright with high 40s around stations and easily into the 80s while in space still gets bogged down if the Map is littered with Sats and other things or you have all the display stuff open.
X3: For the time at launch with non-quad core processing and no hyper-threads and DX9 of all things, super smooth until you encounter over 100 ships rendered in battle then it can drop a few frames, without mods today's hardware probably runs like butter no matter what you throw at it. The maps works without bringing the game to a halt even with an adv sat at every station and gate.

Looks
X4: Better than X3, Worse than X Rebirth, sectors are often dull black, a whole lot more subjective playroom with less to actually see than Rebirth in terms of the design aesthetic. Feels a bit rushed. Ships are blocky, or round, pick your poison, The same builder is used for all races, textures are worse than Rebirth overall ship design is lackluster compared to Rebirth.
X3: Older engine, blocky but unique ships per race, better sector skybox, worse textures, more random stuff to find in the sectors.

Interface
X4: Poor, less clunky than X3 has an RTS style map mediocre flexibility. Preferred by some players over X3
X3: Poor but with much more flexibility over the player property and information, including in-game script engine to make your own commands. (Arguably better than getting an RTS map in place of the flexibility) Preferred by fans who rather functionality over casual use.

Gameplay
X4: Not terrible but not great, mission content is a bit lacklustre and lacks any real sense of a campaign story arc. (No I am not counting the damn Boron HQ hunt), Can get up and walk around in a way that is better than Rebirth but still provides little to actually do but the option exists and it is needed for a few things overall not too shabby but not streamlined either.
X3: Not terrible but not great, better mission content, has an actual story arc actually many story arcs if you play X3:AP. Cannot get up and walk around and has no cockpit bridges (arguably worth the sacrifice for better overall gameplay content) has more content out of the box.


I could go on but there is a trend, both games do respectful things better than one another to a degree, either one can be argued to do one or another thing better than the other and it all comes down to personal taste, and you know where I stand, I like X4 but I feel its not as polished as X3:AP with or without mods there are some choices here which simply infuriate me performance being one, secondly stepping backwards from a game (cough Rebirth) which literally made the internet break with hatred from the fans of the series, go figure.. A few improvements here and there. I am not going to count flying every ship available as that to me is part of the X Universe core experience you take that aspect away and there are better options for space eco simulators.

[Ravenstar]

With regards to ED - I disagree that the ships look like they are designed by a child. For some of the ships FD wanted to keep the feel of the original ships design, back when they were using wire frame models. This is most notable in the Cobra Mk III although others like the Viper just feel plain wrong.

Some of the best ship designs were in X2 the threat IMHO, and I hated how the ship names were kept the same but the designs were changed in X3 reunion. I miss the Pirate Bayamon (four gun mounts) and I absolutely loved the lines of the Split Dragon in X2, and the ability to mount guns in the turrets that could bombard a station or laser tower from standoff range.

[Kadatherion]

X3: For the time at launch with non-quad core processing and no hyper-threads and DX9 of all things, super smooth until you encounter over 100 ships rendered in battle then it can drop a few frames, without mods today's hardware probably runs like butter no matter what you throw at it. The maps works without bringing the game to a halt even with an adv sat at every station and gate.

Look, I do agree with most of your points, and yes, how X4's map UI tanks performance is ridiculous and unacceptable (I had to buy a goddamn 9700k to have it actually PLAYABLE), but let's not spread blatant lies to corroborate a fair point that doesn't need such reinforcement. X3 was HORRIBLE perfomance wise, as it was a single threaded process and not a well optimized one at that. Over 100 ships? Bullets collision detection would tank your fps to the single digits anytime you had more than a couple capitals being in close combat, or just one capital being swarmed by fighter fire (and not many fighters... depending on their weapons, a dozen could be more than enough). This even on some of the beefiest CPUs at the time. Even certain AOE weapons being fired by a LONE ship - even your own piloted fighter - would halve your fps or worse (remember the PSG?). You love Litcube's, for good reasons: then know that the main reason why Litcube drastically lowered weapon RoF all across the board and rebalanced combat around that was to avoid just those very issues. You might be forgetting how unmodded X3 really was.

Also, X3 vanilla (Reunion especially, TC quite as much, AP definitely better) had a very high tendency of becoming dramatically more stutterish, sluggish and unstable, crash prone, late game, as the number of ships in the universe and scripts running would get higher.

Sure, years later with much more powerful rigs being common X3 plays way better - no thanks to the game itself, and still being a single threaded 32bit process it sure isn't "butter smooth" as it could - and TC and AP got progressively better in that department, but X3 per se was yet another nominal example of terribad CPU bottlenecks.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

X3: For the time at launch with non-quad core processing and no hyper-threads and DX9 of all things, super smooth until you encounter over 100 ships rendered in battle then it can drop a few frames, without mods today's hardware probably runs like butter no matter what you throw at it. The maps works without bringing the game to a halt even with an adv sat at every station and gate.

Look, I do agree with most of your points, and yes, how X4's map UI tanks performance is ridiculous and unacceptable (I had to buy a goddamn 9700k to have it actually PLAYABLE), but let's not spread blatant lies to corroborate a fair point that doesn't need such reinforcement. X3 was HORRIBLE perfomance wise, as it was a single threaded process and not a well optimized one at that. Over 100 ships? Bullets collision detection would tank your fps to the single digits anytime you had more than a couple capitals being in close combat, or just one capital being swarmed by fighter fire (and not many fighters... depending on their weapons, a dozen could be more than enough). This even on some of the beefiest CPUs at the time. Even certain AOE weapons being fired by a LONE ship - even your own piloted fighter - would halve your fps or worse (remember the PSG?). You love Litcube's, for good reasons: then know that the main reason why Litcube drastically lowered weapon RoF all across the board and rebalanced combat around that was to avoid just those very issues. You might be forgetting how unmodded X3 really was.

Also, X3 vanilla (Reunion especially, TC quite as much, AP definitely better) had a very high tendency of becoming dramatically more stutterish, sluggish and unstable, crash prone, late game, as the number of ships in the universe and scripts running would get higher.

Sure, years later with much more powerful rigs being common X3 plays way better - no thanks to the game itself, and still being a single threaded 32bit process it sure isn't "butter smooth" as it could - and TC and AP got progressively better in that department, but X3 per se was yet another nominal example of terribad CPU bottlenecks.

I think I just forgot how bad it was in general, tho I came into X3 Reunion quite late, I was running an AMD Athlon X2 3300 or something like that at the time back I gave a damn to invest in the latest chips.
Vanilla Reunion was all I knew before TC I skipped TC entirely I think, I guess they all run terribly then haha.

Seems that has not changed and you would think after all this time it would change and just because CAN have so much going does not mean SHOULD have so much going on if knowing it brings the engine down to not acceptable frame rates, I guess that just means what do they accept as playable 30FPS is not what I think is a playable frame-rate its usable but not enjoyable for anything other than slow games like point and clicks.

I still miss a lot of stuff, I miss the script editor, the galaxy editor, the way you could issue commands via scripts and run scripts on fleets most of that is what interested me in the first place it made things manageable. I never really cared about getting out of the seat to walk around, maybe I played differently than most people, I used to just cheat and build a small empire to send them around into battle and watch it go down but that was about all 15 years old me could muster out of it. Well, I deffo am not going to buy an Intel I9 and pay for the huge premium just for one game to run 20% better.

I can play the game alright just cannot load it up with mods which go crazy with ship jobs and factions else I get micro stuttering every few mins. This is easily avoidable, however, as we can both agree the map going to a crawl is everybody's problem. Does anyone know if they share the map in the main thread or is it offloaded to another thread/core. I think a solid way to fix the map issue is just delay the feedback.
instead of real-time update it every 2mins or something or 60s
30s
etc

as mainly it is the tracking of objects which breaks the performance and I really dont need to see ships move in real time, not when they are just going to spin around like they are on acid in any sector I am not in lol.

[Kadatherion]

I still miss a lot of stuff, I miss the script editor, the galaxy editor, the way you could issue commands via scripts and run scripts on fleets most of that is what interested me in the first place it made things manageable. I never really cared about getting out of the seat to walk around, maybe I played differently than most people, I used to just cheat and build a small empire to send them around into battle and watch it go down but that was about all 15 years old me could muster out of it. Well, I deffo am not going to buy an Intel I9 and pay for the huge premium just for one game to run 20% better.

Oh, believe me, I do as well. In a sense X3's UI and general accessibility was technically "worse" than X4, but it gave us many more tools to manage everything. X4 went down the road Rebirth itself already took, trying to be more accessible to "casuals", but to that end we lost quite a bit... and the UI still arguably is quite a clickfest mess that not many so called "casuals" would be happy to have to struggle with, so...

And, btw, didn't get an I9 *specifically* for X4, it was just time to upgrade for me for many other reasons too, but yeah, the fact a map UI with the wrong tab open or a few too many labels being shown would slow down everything to even less than 10fps on a 3.40ghz I5 (my previous CPU) is ludicrous. There really is no apparent justification or reason for it, it's just astoundingly bad optimization. Might be because the map is a 3d wireframe really that tries to render everything, but in that case it should actually affect the GPU more, and indeed just opening a map UI tab like the list of stations can be enough tank your fps to hell, when it's just... text, basically. X games are full of these inconsistencies, there's some components or mechanics that are very bold and smart, side by side with others that are at times mindbogglingly amateurish.

[Misunderstood Wookie]

Yea like it has come to my attention that even when asteroids are not being rendered they still consume physics calculations and biggest FPS improvements come from reducing the density of the asteroids fields along with slowing down how fast the fire rates are on weps and tone down the projectile counts lastly the jobs are the least of the issue but increasing them to an excessive amount tanks frame minimums.

The map is indeed 3D, I actually do not see a reason for why tho, maybe to be more modern but the reality is we only ever look at it from the top down anyway. I legit turn off every single label you can think off and only show docked ships, I mean some people care about manual trades I don't, I just want my traders to run off and find deals, not me micromanagement of where they go as I don't care they exist only to keep the fire on for the production lines and bring in some cash. I understand a large group of people WANT that trade hands on and I don't know what to tell them because there are much better games which focus on JUST THAT trade aspect that RUN SO MUCH BETTER and the menu is so much easier or complicated depending on how you much depth u invest into it.

So at the moment, I decided to work on fixing some blunders I mean I rather my frame rates be better than visually seeing a thick roid field esp if they are going to sap precious CPU time when you are not even in one.
Yea I feel ya when you say casual lol, TBH I don't see how ANY casual player is going to play an X game anyway Casuals don't care about simulated ecosystems they just want Arcade space action with faction wars and ship customisation.

Which is kinda what I want actually too, I mean Elite Dangerous combat with an active player empire system = perfect space game for me I just want a lot to see and do and to compete for control of areas and things, not worried so much about the economy too much. I actually re-downloaded Elite today, purchased some flare cosmetics and a couple of Voice Attack Profiles just because for me I do Bounty hunting type stuff anyway so Combat is only reason I play, besides the odd exploration adventure and there ARE things to see people who say there is nothing are just wrong, there are SO MANY systems in Elite I can understand why they think its same same, you do have to fly a few Light years to see new stuff, but to say its all same is wrong, every system is entirely unique in one way or another, it could just use more events and player interaction stuff.

[Buzz2005]

Yea like it has come to my attention that even when asteroids are not being rendered they still consume physics calculations and biggest FPS improvements come from reducing the density of the asteroids fields along with slowing down how fast the fire rates are on weps and tone down the projectile counts lastly the jobs are the least of the issue but increasing them to an excessive amount tanks frame minimums.

The map is indeed 3D, I actually do not see a reason for why tho, maybe to be more modern but the reality is we only ever look at it from the top down anyway. I legit turn off every single label you can think off and only show docked ships, I mean some people care about manual trades I don't, I just want my traders to run off and find deals, not me micromanagement of where they go as I don't care they exist only to keep the fire on for the production lines and bring in some cash. I understand a large group of people WANT that trade hands on and I don't know what to tell them because there are much better games which focus on JUST THAT trade aspect that RUN SO MUCH BETTER and the menu is so much easier or complicated depending on how you much depth u invest into it.

So at the moment, I decided to work on fixing some blunders I mean I rather my frame rates be better than visually seeing a thick roid field esp if they are going to sap precious CPU time when you are not even in one.
Yea I feel ya when you say casual lol, TBH I don't see how ANY casual player is going to play an X game anyway Casuals don't care about simulated ecosystems they just want Arcade space action with faction wars and ship customisation.

Which is kinda what I want actually too, I mean Elite Dangerous combat with an active player empire system = perfect space game for me I just want a lot to see and do and to compete for control of areas and things, not worried so much about the economy too much. I actually re-downloaded Elite today, purchased some flare cosmetics and a couple of Voice Attack Profiles just because for me I do Bounty hunting type stuff anyway so Combat is only reason I play, besides the odd exploration adventure and there ARE things to see people who say there is nothing are just wrong, there are SO MANY systems in Elite I can understand why they think its same same, you do have to fly a few Light years to see new stuff, but to say its all same is wrong, every system is entirely unique in one way or another, it could just use more events and player interaction stuff.

can you please upload that mod for reduced asteroids, please