How can egosoft make autotrade better?

[nickolaiproblem]

Just like title says how can egosoft make autotrade more user friendly and useful? What are your thoughts and suggestions for the devs. Also devs if wanna jump in tell the player base about your plans for autotrade feel free.

[uscgpeterson]

I would say at least put it in the game first lol

[nickolaiproblem]

I would say at least put it in the game first lol

It is though what version are you playing?

[Tomonor]

The reason why balancing autotrade is impossible is because the whole concept behind it is flawed - "autotrade" is fake.

For instance, let's say you run a company that specialises in hauling cargo cross country. You by default have a lot of crap on your shoulders from the start, including hiring and managing employees, buying and maintaining vehicles, calculating all the side expenses including fuel consumption, taxes, fines, etc-etc. The term (or phenomenon this game presents) called autotrade does not exist in real life, even if you are a CEO of a really successful you still need to make decisions.

Rebirth was sort of on the good route with its approach - there autotrade does not exist, making you the head manager of your freighters while your hired employees do what you tell them. However due to public outcry Egosoft tried to add it back with attempted balancing.


How I would fix it: I think the reason autotrade was cheaty thus far is because there are no in-universe limitations to it. By default, you should only be able to micromanage your traders (you can do that by the way, it's a feature ingame). Once you get your head around to automatize the process, you would need to create a station/company with a manager. This manager would micromanage the traderuns for you (and your employees).

The limitations would come on the following nature:
-Well the obvious, the whole company/operation would require a physical homebase where it can be ran
-It would cost money to run such enterprise (registration tax or something like that)
-There would be a set number of ships a manager can hold, and even that would depend on his/her/its skill (so a novice could only manage a single freighter)
-Employees (freighters) would need some time off after successful traderuns (sleeping/vehicle maintenance), so the process is not a continous money-flow on your end
-The morality could also play a huge role, for instance if its too low due to circumstances in the very extreme cases the employees would sabotage your profits (like, they would only fly with half speed, or would regularly visit spacepubs instead of doing their work).


The same can be applied to Autominers, and basically any future automated feature.

[nickolaiproblem]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

[SPiDER]

2.2 is pretty good at station subordinate and autotrading..pre 2.2 it needed work which they did..

Manual Trading could do with an X3 Repeat command...

maybe re-introducing with station traders the Player can choose which wares the traders can Buy or Sell or prioritise...but X4 is has a steep learning curve as it is..make it to complicated and only truly die hard fans will stick it out

These guys are here to make a game for everyone..IMHO they are doing a grand job juggling what everyone wants..and trying to smooth out the wrinkles.

Lets kill a few more bugs first then go for the tweeking..

IMO
not wanting to start a Fight

[Tomonor]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

[nickolaiproblem]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

Ah I got you so you invest in your bussiness by buying freighters and hiring sector managers who oversee production and distribution of goods. But if you want auto traders to work autonomously without managers you have to trading software that is incredibly expensive. Forcing you to actually think like businessman.

[nickolaiproblem]

2.2 is pretty good at station subordinate and autotrading..pre 2.2 it needed work which they did..

Manual Trading could do with an X3 Repeat command...

maybe re-introducing with station traders the Player can choose which wares the traders can Buy or Sell or prioritise...but X4 is has a steep learning curve as it is..make it to complicated and only truly die hard fans will stick it out

These guys are here to make a game for everyone..IMHO they are doing a grand job juggling what everyone wants..and trying to smooth out the wrinkles.

Lets kill a few more bugs first then go for the tweeking..

IMO
not wanting to start a Fight

There no fight here just a honest frank discussion on a feature of the game. Here's the thing x games are already niche I think they should add features that make sense and either allow the player to figure it out or provide relevant tutorials.

[Tomonor]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

Ah I got you so you invest in your bussiness by buying freighters and hiring sector managers who oversee production and distribution of goods. But if you want auto traders to work autonomously without managers you have to trading software that is incredibly expensive. Forcing you to actually think like businessman.

Well eh nope, I just mentioned the MK3 trader software as a comparison to present how it was "balanced" in the previous X games.

But now that I think about it, an oversimplified version would be that. An expensive software that would grant the NPC the ability to do efficient universe-wide traderuns.

[nickolaiproblem]

2.2 is pretty good at station subordinate and autotrading..pre 2.2 it needed work which they did..

Manual Trading could do with an X3 Repeat command...

maybe re-introducing with station traders the Player can choose which wares the traders can Buy or Sell or prioritise...but X4 is has a steep learning curve as it is..make it to complicated and only truly die hard fans will stick it out

These guys are here to make a game for everyone..IMHO they are doing a grand job juggling what everyone wants..and trying to smooth out the wrinkles.

Lets kill a few more bugs first then go for the tweeking..

IMO
not wanting to start a Fight

There no fight here just a honest frank discussion on a feature of the game. Here's the thing x games are already niche I think they should add features that make sense and either allow the player to figure it out or provide relevant tutorials.

[nickolaiproblem]

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

Ah I got you so you invest in your bussiness by buying freighters and hiring sector managers who oversee production and distribution of goods. But if you want auto traders to work autonomously without managers you have to trading software that is incredibly expensive. Forcing you to actually think like businessman.

Well eh nope, I just mentioned the MK3 trader software as a comparison to present how it was "balanced" in the previous X games.

But now that I think about it, an oversimplified version would be that. An expensive software that would grant the NPC the ability to do efficient universe-wide traderuns.

Hmm it could kinda like digital seminars where you purchase a ship with that software installed maybe it cost 25,000 credits or more per software then you can do universe wide trade runs. Seems kinda intresting but if I am frank I kinda prefer the managers overseeing operations rather than software route but ego could implement both.

[Imperial Good]

There should be different tiers of auto trade, similar to how there is sector mining.

Basic trade will import/export only 1 good with a 0 star requirement and 1-3 sector range, kid of like sector mining so good enough for basic trade operations. Advanced trade would be what we currently have and need 3 stars. Expert trade then uses a global trade planner to manage the ships more optimally but requires 4 star captain or better.

Expert trade would effectively be universal trade (infinite range). In the background a global think logic would resolve good trade deals and routes that are optimal to maximize utilization of the trade ship. For example it might pick up food for many factories before delivering to each in a more optimal order. Of course humans could likely find better more efficient routes, but the idea is that it is good enough for 0 micro management.

[nickolaiproblem]

There should be different tiers of auto trade, similar to how there is sector mining.

Basic trade will import/export only 1 good with a 0 star requirement and 1-3 sector range, kid of like sector mining so good enough for basic trade operations. Advanced trade would be what we currently have and need 3 stars. Expert trade then uses a global trade planner to manage the ships more optimally but requires 4 star captain or better.

Expert trade would effectively be universal trade (infinite range). In the background a global think logic would resolve good trade deals and routes that are optimal to maximize utilization of the trade ship. For example it might pick up food for many factories before delivering to each in a more optimal order. Of course humans could likely find better more efficient routes, but the idea is that it is good enough for 0 micro management.

Okay but how would make sure that its not "cheaty" or more so how do balance the game.

[uscgpeterson]

Well autotrade could be implemented this way. You build a station that makes a certain ware. You then select traders to attach to that station and you make them autotrade. They will sell the certain ware that you choose to the stations with the highest price and the least distance to travel (going off your satellite information of course). I honestly think that is the only way autotrade should be implemented. Now if you don't have a station that produces wares then yes I believe you should have to manually input every trade order like we have to do now. If you could autotrade everything that would just take the fun out of it.

[nickolaiproblem]

Well autotrade could be implemented this way. You build a station that makes a certain ware. You then select traders to attach to that station and you make them autotrade. They will sell the certain ware that you choose to the stations with the highest price and the least distance to travel (going off your satellite information of course). I honestly think that is the only way autotrade should be implemented. Now if you don't have a station that produces wares then yes I believe you should have to manually input every trade order like we have to do now. If you could autotrade everything that would just take the fun out of it.

So this system almost incentivize trade oriented players to add to economy not just deliver not bad. I think allowing autotrade only for stations that produce wares might be a good idea a few mods already do that. Right now I am using tatertrader and its good but the biggest problem is that I can just sit on my ass and count credits rather than being active with my game.

[Falcrack]

Regular wages for NPC crew would add to the challenge, so that it is not simply a matter of printing money. You would have to consider whether the particular autotrade assignment is worth it. For profitable items, the profots will easily exceed the wages. For unprofitable items, or worse, sitting around idly, you could be losing money.

Other ways to make it better, ability to assign a home base when choosing buy and sell distance. Make it so that pilot skill level is not a limit on how many sectors the trader can traverse, but rather how much time the trade ship needs to take to find a good trade. Low skilled pilots can travel just as far as higher skilled pilots, but they take longer to find those trade deals. Lower skilled pilots would cost less in wages.

Give the option to create global sector blacklists, or whitelists for a particular trader. Give the ability to add all wares to trade, restrict to just legal wares, illegal wares, blacklist or whitelist certain factions, etc.

Or just take the tatertrader mod and incorporate it entirely into the base game.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

I disagree - with X4 there is investment where ATs are concerned, the difference is it is more time than money related. Getting suitably trained pilots from a shipyard/wharf is anything but a guarantee thus you need to rely on training pilots to a suitable level at least half the time.

The only thing that is really missing is better ship cargo management and usage, this could be facilitated by allowing the player to essentially set up trading stations. No new modules nor station types are required, just add the ability to add non-produced/consumed wares and set/add sale/purchase prices for those wares. We can currently transfer wares manually and set sale prices for those wares but that is it. Further to this, being able to directly manipulate the target ware level balance for a given station would be good too - currently the ware level balance is seemingly fixed (or at least totally automated).

Maybe autotraders of a sufficient level could have subordinate traders that work for them either buying/selling for the auto-trader's ship OR trading independently and RTBing if they can not find any deals.

The auto-trader logic at V2.20 is ok though, sure it is not necessarily optimal and as a rule of thumb there are quicker ways to earn credits in-game. This runs counter to X2/X3 where UTs/STs could be a major source of income but that is a good thing IMO.

As for limiting AT logic to being station based (or adding crew wages), I disagree where Vanilla X4 is concerned (inc. future DLC for X4). Maybe a good choice for X5 (should there ever be such a game) or a community mod for X4 though.

[nickolaiproblem]

Regular wages for NPC crew would add to the challenge, so that it is not simply a matter of printing money. You would have to consider whether the particular autotrade assignment is worth it. For profitable items, the profots will easily exceed the wages. For unprofitable items, or worse, sitting around idly, you could be losing money.

Other ways to make it better, ability to assign a home base when choosing buy and sell distance. Make it so that pilot skill level is not a limit on how many sectors the trader can traverse, but rather how much time the trade ship needs to take to find a good trade. Low skilled pilots can travel just as far as higher skilled pilots, but they take longer to find those trade deals. Lower skilled pilots would cost less in wages.

Give the option to create global sector blacklists, or whitelists for a particular trader. Give the ability to add all wares to trade, restrict to just legal wares, illegal wares, blacklist or whitelist certain factions, etc.

Or just take the tatertrader mod and incorporate it entirely into the base game.

While I like tatertrader I feel the best way to make sure experience is both rewarding and challenging is combining autotrader with wages like you mentioned before perhaps ui upgrades that tatertrader can be kept but there also needs to be a stronger economic simulation as well.

[nickolaiproblem]

Okay If I get your drift you basically you want a managers to have larger role by being the in between so would managers basically setup the trades for like this https://staticdelivery.nexusmods.com/mo ... 206335.png

Yeah, but managers would be a small part of the whole thing. The thing that would matter more is the investment. Previous X games played this off pretty well because the only necessary MK3 Trading software was really hard to come across and it costed a relative fortune.

That's what is missing right now.

I disagree - with X4 there is investment where ATs are concerned, the difference is it is more time than money related. Getting suitably trained pilots from a shipyard/wharf is anything but a guarantee thus you need to rely on training pilots to a suitable level at least half the time.

The only thing that is really missing is better ship cargo management and usage, this could be facilitated by allowing the player to essentially set up trading stations. No new modules nor station types are required, just add the ability to add non-produced/consumed wares and set/add sale/purchase prices for those wares. We can currently transfer wares manually and set sale prices for those wares but that is it. Further to this, being able to directly manipulate the target ware level balance for a given station would be good too - currently the ware level balance is seemingly fixed (or at least totally automated).

Maybe autotraders of a sufficient level could have subordinate traders that work for them either buying/selling for the auto-trader's ship OR trading independently and RTBing if they can not find any deals.

The auto-trader logic at V2.20 is ok though, sure it is not necessarily optimal and as a rule of thumb there are quicker ways to earn credits in-game. This runs counter to X2/X3 where UTs/STs could be a major source of income but that is a good thing IMO.

As for limiting AT logic to being station based (or adding crew wages), I disagree where Vanilla X4 is concerned (inc. future DLC for X4). Maybe a good choice for X5 (should there ever be such a game) or a community mod for X4 though.

Do your autotraders actually follow your orders because mine don't seem to. Also as to your second point maybe its a good idea to try this each ware is in certain category for example food rations in food stuffs category. A player can select which category of wares they want to buy and sell they can also select more as they their crew skill advances. So keep auto trade at 3 stars as rank up you add more category to sell. You can then select what trade independently option as well in case they can't find any of selected categories to sell. I would also like to see the jump option back up to 30 as well.