Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

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adeine
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by adeine »

uscgpeterson wrote: Wed, 27. Mar 19, 20:01 Dang are you saying a threadripper or 9900k paired with a1080ti or 2080ti will still struggle with this game?
Probably. More cores only helps so much as the workload can be parallelised, with catastrophically diminishing returns (cf. Amdahl's Law) and per core performance may actually be worse on some of the very highest end CPUs.

GPU isn't incredibly relevant, of course you can push resolution and detail higher with a better GPU but you'll definitely still feel a similar impact.
Imperial Good
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Imperial Good »

X4 hardly uses that much CPU... I get playable performance on a 10 year old stock I7 920.

Most performance issues seem to be when there are a lot of physics objects nearby, such as asteroid field or M, L and XL ships. That almost certainly is a CPU bottleneck however I am pretty sure even powerful CPUs will still struggle.

If using a laptop make sure the CPU is not thermal throttling. This can easily cause a laptop CPU to perform much worse than one would expect.
WurminatorZA
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by WurminatorZA »

I haven't installed X4 again but now you guys got me wondering how it will run on my Ryzen 5 1600 @ 4.0Ghz.. I was waiting for most bugs to be fixed and so forth before playing. I might just install to benchmark it, anyone else with a 12 thread + CPU can chime in?
MurryChang
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by MurryChang »

That's the way the X games work. I remember getting an expansion sound card for X3 because taking the sound processing load off of my CPU got me +~10fps.
Buzz2005
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Buzz2005 »

would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.
MurryChang
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by MurryChang »

Buzz2005 wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 13:33 would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
This was back in Vanilla X3 days, a couple months after launch, and I was running I think an old single core Athelon I believe? I doubt you'd get nearly that much of a boost these days.
CBJ
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by CBJ »

Buzz2005 wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 13:33 would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
I very much doubt it. From my own experience with supporting games from X2 all the way to X4, on-board Realtek sound hardware has the best record for both performance (with the specific exception mentioned by the previous poster) and driver stability. Dedicated sound hardware these days is really only for audio enthusiasts looking for exceptional sound quality or specialist features.
MurryChang
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by MurryChang »

CBJ wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 14:05
Buzz2005 wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 13:33 would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
I very much doubt it. From my own experience with supporting games from X2 all the way to X4, on-board Realtek sound hardware has the best record for both performance (with the specific exception mentioned by the previous poster) and driver stability. Dedicated sound hardware these days is really only for audio enthusiasts looking for exceptional sound quality or specialist features.
I believe the support forum actually recommended getting a expansion soundcard for X3, no way I would have thought of it myself. Back then the CPU had to spend processes on the sound and having single core/thread meant that would be processes that couldn't be used for the game.
pref
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by pref »

uscgpeterson wrote: Wed, 27. Mar 19, 21:31 Those CPU's I listed still struggle? I mean it might be a stupid question since you obviously saw them and still said that its just hard to fathom for me.
The thread which has HW recommendations in it is pretty clear: above 4 cores single core speed matters more then core count.

It's not like an FPS game where it's possible to maintain a certain level of objects to render and ensure whatever framerates on any hardware.
If you fly around huge complexes, or play with an enormous fleet your FPS will drop even on highend machines. It's not the game's fault, and you cannot buy hardware which allows for unlimited asset count rendering at stable 60 fps.
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Imperial Good »

Dang are you saying a threadripper or 9900k paired with a1080ti or 2080ti will still struggle with this game?
Threadripper will struggle because it has poor single thread performance (it is more aimed towards productivity with core count scaling applications). 9900k will absolutely eat it as it is the king/queen of single threaded performance. Yes you will encounter situations where frame rate is low, but those will be few and far between and likely the result of computationally impossible situations (eg 500 laser towers vs 300 defence drones).
That's the way the X games work. I remember getting an expansion sound card for X3 because taking the sound processing load off of my CPU got me +~10fps.
This sounds unlikely... Maybe there was more to it such as bad drivers or too complex sound environments? If using Vista or Windows 7 this would not be possible anyway since all sound was software computed. Only later did they add back hardware accelerated sound in the form of automatic sound channel offload.
Buzz2005 wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 13:33 would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
Yes it will improve performance if running Windows 8 or 10 due to hardware acceleration. However only if the dedicated sound card offers actual hardware offload capabilities for modern Windows and is not just an audiophile high quality DAC. That said one is likely looking at a 1% performance increase at maximum because sound channel mixing involves very little data.

In the old days sound cards were critical for gaming performance since sound processing used a huge amount of CPU time. However CPUs are so fast now that similar sound processing (humans still hear the same...) takes very little if not insignificant processing time. Sound processing can even scale well with multiple cores unlike game logic.
Dedicated sound hardware these days is really only for audio enthusiasts looking for exceptional sound quality or specialist features.
And low power systems since dedicated hardware can deal with more channels or use less power per watt than a CPU. Similar reason as to why there is dedicated hardware to handle encryption, hashing, decompression, graphics, etc.
I believe the support forum actually recommended getting a expansion soundcard for X3, no way I would have thought of it myself. Back then the CPU had to spend processes on the sound and having single core/thread meant that would be processes that couldn't be used for the game.
For Windows Vista users it would make no difference as that did not support hardware acceleration of sound. For Windows XP users it would make a difference since the drivers for expensive cards might hardware accelerate the sound. This makes sense since Windows Vista users likely had multi core CPUs with higher instruction per cycle counts which trivialize sound processing than the XP users with older single core CPUs with low instructions per cycle counts.

In Windows Vista, sound is processed outside the calling thread by the kernel and mixers. It might not even block the calling thread while this happens. In newer OSes and if dedicated offload hardware is available then the kernel will push the channel data to that hardware (through driver code) to process and get the hardware to mix the results with any channels it could not offload and had to manually process.
uscgpeterson
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by uscgpeterson »

For the past week I have been researching everyday trying to find a glimmer of hope for overclocking my CPU. Anyone a OC Guru and can OC anything?
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Nafensoriel »

uscgpeterson wrote: Fri, 29. Mar 19, 01:22 For the past week I have been researching everyday trying to find a glimmer of hope for overclocking my CPU. Anyone a OC Guru and can OC anything?
Few questions for ya...

1] What CPU
2] Have you ever OC'ed before?
3] Do you understand the risks associated with OCing?(up to and including hardware death)

There are many different types of overclocking.. depending on what you've got in the box it could be easy or not recommended for a novice. Plenty of us around to help educate though :).
"A Tradition is only as good as it's ability to change." Nael
uscgpeterson
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by uscgpeterson »

Yes I have overclocked before I had a intel core 2 duo p7450 2.13Ghz. I still have a 2.9Ghz stable clock on it and I might even be able to go higher if I mess around with the voltage. I completely understand all the risk. So I have a dell inspiron 15 7577 and it has a i5-7300HQ. So I have seen some people OC their HQ not my chip though. I honestly think its impossible, but I also think that if someone that really knew what they were doing they could overclock it. Im not giving up just yet.

The 7300HQ has a base clock of 2.5ghz with a 3.5ghz boost on single core, 3.3ghz on dual core and 3.1ghz on four cores. All I want is all four cores to at least hit 3.3 to 3.5 I don't want anything crazy.

If you have a solution it probably has to be a original solution because I have tried everything I mean everything the only thing I think might work that I can't figure out. Is to get the PLL of my laptop and add it to SETFSB and I think that might do it but im still a OC noob and I have a lot more research to go to figure this out.
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Nafensoriel
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Nafensoriel »

Ouch on the 7300 :/ IIRC it is a locked multiplier version?
You might be able to break some things to make it draw more voltage but I doubt it would have much effect on performance.

With laptops, you also have the issue of very explicit heat solutions which don't generally like overclocking unless you live in an ice cream freezer.
Sorry :/ Not much you can do with that chip :(.
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WurminatorZA
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by WurminatorZA »

Imperial Good wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 19:16
Dang are you saying a threadripper or 9900k paired with a1080ti or 2080ti will still struggle with this game?
Threadripper will struggle because it has poor single thread performance (it is more aimed towards productivity with core count scaling applications). 9900k will absolutely eat it as it is the king/queen of single threaded performance. Yes you will encounter situations where frame rate is low, but those will be few and far between and likely the result of computationally impossible situations (eg 500 laser towers vs 300 defence drones).
That's the way the X games work. I remember getting an expansion sound card for X3 because taking the sound processing load off of my CPU got me +~10fps.
This sounds unlikely... Maybe there was more to it such as bad drivers or too complex sound environments? If using Vista or Windows 7 this would not be possible anyway since all sound was software computed. Only later did they add back hardware accelerated sound in the form of automatic sound channel offload.
Buzz2005 wrote: Thu, 28. Mar 19, 13:33 would a dedicated sound card give better fps in x4, anyone have insight in this
Yes it will improve performance if running Windows 8 or 10 due to hardware acceleration. However only if the dedicated sound card offers actual hardware offload capabilities for modern Windows and is not just an audiophile high quality DAC. That said one is likely looking at a 1% performance increase at maximum because sound channel mixing involves very little data.

In the old days sound cards were critical for gaming performance since sound processing used a huge amount of CPU time. However CPUs are so fast now that similar sound processing (humans still hear the same...) takes very little if not insignificant processing time. Sound processing can even scale well with multiple cores unlike game logic.
Dedicated sound hardware these days is really only for audio enthusiasts looking for exceptional sound quality or specialist features.
And low power systems since dedicated hardware can deal with more channels or use less power per watt than a CPU. Similar reason as to why there is dedicated hardware to handle encryption, hashing, decompression, graphics, etc.
I believe the support forum actually recommended getting a expansion soundcard for X3, no way I would have thought of it myself. Back then the CPU had to spend processes on the sound and having single core/thread meant that would be processes that couldn't be used for the game.
For Windows Vista users it would make no difference as that did not support hardware acceleration of sound. For Windows XP users it would make a difference since the drivers for expensive cards might hardware accelerate the sound. This makes sense since Windows Vista users likely had multi core CPUs with higher instruction per cycle counts which trivialize sound processing than the XP users with older single core CPUs with low instructions per cycle counts.

In Windows Vista, sound is processed outside the calling thread by the kernel and mixers. It might not even block the calling thread while this happens. In newer OSes and if dedicated offload hardware is available then the kernel will push the channel data to that hardware (through driver code) to process and get the hardware to mix the results with any channels it could not offload and had to manually process.
Threadripper poor single core performance? you are wrong its about 5-7% behind on coffee lake at same clockspeed. I can agree intel has better single core but not by much. Ryzen rips intel a new one in multithreaded even with same amount of cores/threads.
realShakran
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by realShakran »

Sooooo are there maybe any possible actions to be taken to get a bit more performance out of this game?

i have a i7 4790 and a gtx 970 paired with 16gb of ram

but now, after 3 days of playtime, (with sinza ofcourse) my game hovers around 10fps, almost unplayable. i have 3 stations, around 200 ships of my own, and i cant play it anymore because of this.
yes, i have mods isntalled, but this is also happening under vanilla from day 1 onwards (ok, the performance on stations got better till then but besides that its still....well crap)

i hover always around 15-20% cpu usage and at max 30% gpu. i know its running in vulcan and so on, but is it really THIS BAD?
i would so love to play the game you know, its alot of fun, but holy heck i cant deal with 10fps and more stuttering then if i would play over the remote connection on my server....
pref
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by pref »

realShakran wrote: Fri, 29. Mar 19, 11:07 but now, after 3 days of playtime, (with sinza ofcourse) my game hovers around 10fps
On SETA fps can drop significantly.
If you have 10 fps all the time that is not normal, either some of your mods mess up the game, your HW has issues or you have hit a bug which no one else has so far.
On 2.0 i had a couple huge factories (serious hundreds of modules), numerous ships, and fps was pretty nice unless i was close to a huge station.
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by Imperial Good »

Threadripper poor single core performance? you are wrong its about 5-7% behind on coffee lake at same clockspeed. I can agree intel has better single core but not by much. Ryzen rips intel a new one in multithreaded even with same amount of cores/threads.
Problem with thread ripper is that it has a low clock speed as well as worse instructions per cycle than the 9900k. A well designed 9900k system will be able to run single threaded work loads at 5GHz for extended periods (boost duration override). Thread ripper cannot get near that single thread speed. The result is a ~£500 9900k will perform at least ~30% faster than a ~£1,200 Thread Ripper for such single thread work loads. This extends past single thread work loads as well, with similar performance lead all the way up to 16 threaded work loads.

It only starts to lose out once more than 16 threaded work loads are in play since then Thread Ripper can win simply due to its vastly superior core count.

X4 is mostly a single threaded work load. Hence an I9 9900k will run it at least 30% better than a Thread Ripper CPU. Other Intel CPUs from previous generations and which are considerably cheaper will also have superior performance to Thread Ripper, although by less margin. There is a reason Intel still takes all the high places in gaming CPU benchmark charts. 30% is a huge margin given how much more it costs and hence why I said "struggles" in that context although I do agree that the term is a bit of an exaggeration as far as actual performance goes.
realShakran
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by realShakran »

pref wrote: Fri, 29. Mar 19, 11:18
realShakran wrote: Fri, 29. Mar 19, 11:07 but now, after 3 days of playtime, (with sinza ofcourse) my game hovers around 10fps
On SETA fps can drop significantly.
If you have 10 fps all the time that is not normal, either some of your mods mess up the game, your HW has issues or you have hit a bug which no one else has so far.
On 2.0 i had a couple huge factories (serious hundreds of modules), numerous ships, and fps was pretty nice unless i was close to a huge station.
well yeah during sinza it drops always, thats not the problem, but i mean outside of it, its just horrible

and i also just tested it on my server,wich has 2 xeon E5640 with a radeon r7 280, and i had via steam-inhome-streaming the same fps on the same resolution, atleast as far as my feeling goes.

with mods i dunno, better explore comand, early seta, 10 times less module build time, crystal finder, tater trader (wich may cause it, but i dont trust the auto trader since that still has the problem of not selling wares it bought after a restart), and "ashipmod". thats it what i use in mods :T

i will try it without any mods and will see how far that goes, even tho its super annoying putting hundreds of trading ships again out there where you need to give every ship the order to trade all wares seperately
pref
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Re: Questionable CPU and GPU Performance?

Post by pref »

realShakran wrote: Fri, 29. Mar 19, 13:08 and i also just tested it on my server,wich has 2 xeon E5640 with a radeon r7 280, and i had via steam-inhome-streaming the same fps on the same resolution, atleast as far as my feeling goes.
That sounds really weird, guess you should have at least 2x the FPS on your i7 regardless of software issues..?
Are you sure you gaming PC is healthy?

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