Steam refusing refunds on this game if 1 min over 2 hours exactly

[jacozilla]

First - let me say I'm not necessarily bashing the game nor the devs by far. They've been prompt and stars above other studios in patches, etc.

I also think it is entirely rational to concede there are many players having a great time, while many players have bug issues that impact them more than others. However, there are enough issues that for me the game isn't a go, with ~4 hours on record played.

In my case, I could barely get past the tutorials. Specifically, #2 ship mode was a horror story. Spent nearly 2 hours stuck just on that one. Anyway, this isn't complaint about game thread - just PSA that I've tried ~6 times now with Steam and despite pointing out the only reason I played 4 hours was due to the sheer time it took to try out and get past the tutorials, they're sticking to their guns and say in this case, no exception to the 2 hour cut off will be made.

To repeat again, if you're having a great time with the game, kudos to you and I take nothing away from that. But it is definitely not for me as I don't play games where some basic mechanics don't work for me - unfortunately Steam is not standing behind the general intent of their refund policy - which is for legit returns when a player hasn't abused the privilege of playing it then try to 'return' it.

Like any consumer though, only way is vote with wallet, so while I'll certainly give ES another attempt down the line given their sincerity and efforts, I'm pretty much done ever buying another title on steam. I'll just suck it up and not play anything that is steam exclusive.

[Thurgret]

Possibly a matter for the Steam forums? I've found their refund policy pretty reasonable myself, but I guess I've only rarely availed of it. Anyway, for what it's worth, X4 isn't a Steam exclusive. It also released on GOG. Maybe you didn't mean that this specifically is Steam-exclusive.

[hexx_eddi]

Maybe give it a try later again. It is a strange game and you have to get used to, it also will probably much easier in some month. For me I have a lot of fun to discover mechanics and hidden stuff, there is a lot just heard there are pirates on stations you have to scan to actually find out there are on false flag. But there are already a lot of tutorials on youtube for many mechanics. I spent over 50h in the game and still have to learn things

I had to buy it also on steam, gog came to late for me and the esosoft shop didn't look like it was touched in the last 10 years

[Erqco]

First - let me say I'm not necessarily bashing the game nor the devs by far. They've been prompt and stars above other studios in patches, etc.

I also think it is entirely rational to concede there are many players having a great time, while many players have bug issues that impact them more than others. However, there are enough issues that for me the game isn't a go, with ~4 hours on record played.

In my case, I could barely get past the tutorials. Specifically, #2 ship mode was a horror story. Spent nearly 2 hours stuck just on that one. Anyway, this isn't complaint about game thread - just PSA that I've tried ~6 times now with Steam and despite pointing out the only reason I played 4 hours was due to the sheer time it took to try out and get past the tutorials, they're sticking to their guns and say in this case, no exception to the 2 hour cut off will be made.

To repeat again, if you're having a great time with the game, kudos to you and I take nothing away from that. But it is definitely not for me as I don't play games where some basic mechanics don't work for me - unfortunately Steam is not standing behind the general intent of their refund policy - which is for legit returns when a player hasn't abused the privilege of playing it then try to 'return' it.

Like any consumer though, only way is vote with wallet, so while I'll certainly give ES another attempt down the line given their sincerity and efforts, I'm pretty much done ever buying another title on steam. I'll just suck it up and not play anything that is steam exclusive.

That happen to me long time ago with my first time with an X game.. give it time, the learning curve is a wall, but after that it is amazing, I tried for 2 years to play to an old Xgame and I wasn't able to understand why the people like it until one day I started to enjoy the games... that happened like 10 years ago, the only one that I wasn't able to enjoy is Rebirth, but I think that I will try again in the future. If you are new to the series I will start with X3 TC or AP, this last one is my favorite. Also these games aren't for everyone.

[jacozilla]

Possibly a matter for the Steam forums? I've found their refund policy pretty reasonable myself, but I guess I've only rarely availed of it. Anyway, for what it's worth, X4 isn't a Steam exclusive. It also released on GOG. Maybe you didn't mean that this specifically is Steam-exclusive.

I have posted on steam, and generally think the refund policy as written is reasonable - but like anything else, context matters. And some games just don't allow a legitimate try in that 2 hour window. Even if the tutorials worked perfectly, I would think most reasonable X4 players would agree just getting the controls down, basics, and speeding through all dozen+ tutorials would take more than 2 hours.

So while avoiding spamming - hence 1 thread and that's all you'll ever see from me on this topic - thought it useful to post here for 2 principal reasons:

a) nothing ever gets done unless you publicly raise your opinion outside the owned media of the company you are protesting. Companies like steam don't readdress policies because ppl talk about in on their forum - history shows it is inevitably only due to outside pressure and negative attention via facebook, other forums, etc.

b) it is entirely probable there are new users currently under 2 hour cutoff (like I was when still stuck on first couple tutorials). Without encouraging nor even suggesting what they ought to do as a purely personal decision, this is just a PSA that if they're on fence re: exercising the steam refund policy, better do it before the hard cutoff.

It's quite well known Steam exercises discretion, that the hours cutoff isn't the same for all games, all cases or users. Since 2010 I've bought games on steam and never returned one. The refund policy is more recent, but I've read enough examples to know general intent is common sense application - if the user clearly played a good chunk of the game, doesn't matter if within 14 days or not, refund is and should be denied.

If the curve to a game is steep enough, as in this one, just getting familiar enough in order to give it that legit try takes more than 2 hours. I don't intend to beat a dead, I've raised the PSA, politely, made no suggestion anyone else ought to do anything, just publicly sharing what I feel is a customer service fail on the part of Steam (while being honest about what seems good intents and actions on ES part - I don't think it's unreasonable to say I find their efforts admirable while at same time saying the outstanding issues make it for me a refundable issue)

[Masterdude420]

ass pain? just wait cheez.. you even take your time to come here.. lol

[StoneLegionYT]

This makes no sense. I thought you were several hours a day ago. Not only that you gave the game a review of 8/10 the tutorial that we all can agree sucks 1/10.

You sure you were 1 minute over?

Even this makes it 1000000% more fishy:

[jacozilla]

This makes no sense. I thought you were several hours a day ago. Not only that you gave the game a review of 8/10 the tutorial that we all can agree sucks 1/10.

You sure you were 1 minute over?

Even this makes it 1000000% more fishy:

Steam profile is public - https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198032083941/
Easily verify I have exactly 4.6 hours.

Can also easily check the few posts I have on this forum. Don't know what kind of job you have, but I don't have time to play hours on end mid-week. I was several hours into game days ago, yes. It's take me then till now to rack up my impressive 4.6 hours.

I was giving the game a fair shot - that's what is reasonable is it not, especially if the conclusion is negative? I first posted thought I was ~4 hours in, turns out less as the hassle made time seem longer. Last post I thought was ~6 hours but as shown by steam it is exactly 4.6 hours.

And if you read my review post then it's strange you missed the point made in the very subject line - overall I gave the game as intended an 8, and the separate score of 1/10 for tutorial. Because being honest, I didnt want to say ALL of the game was crap because one part of it is (to me, personal opinion). So being honest I rated it separately, and also posted I'd need to now think about whether to get refund or not.

I also never said -I- was only 1 minute over, just that from the responses I got from Steam customer service, they specifically told me they were holding to the 2 hour cutoff and therefore while acknowledging they've heard the game has issues, was denying the refund request.

What you find 'fishy' is a lack of reading the details of willful ignorance of the plain statements made. e.g. you twisting my stated play hours vs 1 min over - which again I never stated was my case - simply passing on what steam told me via written response - they will not refund due to be any time played over 2.0 hours.

[StoneLegionYT]

So the question is you want steam to issue a refund past 2.0 hours for this game or all games?

[Nafensoriel]

Couldn't possibly be because valve is tired of people abusing their refund service for demo testing, could it?
(That's the exact reason they are getting harsher on refunds btw)

[jacozilla]

So the question is you want steam to issue a refund past 2.0 hours for this game or all games?

The former, within reason - and definitely not the latter. I'm certainly not advocating -any number- hours played on this game deserves refund. That would be too extreme. Nor do I take the extremist position that steam should extend hours played for all games.

It comes down to common sense - what is reasonable number of hours that suggest you merely only tried out this game, not really -played- it nor derived any significant entertainment portion of the purchase price paid.

My position is pretty much what intent of steam's refund policy is for - let customers try out a game long enough for informed decision and if unsatisfied for any reason (their policy, not my expectations), return it. Key point is common sense - don't be that guy that eats almost the whole sandwich then demands return to kitchen.

For a lot of games, you can legitimately try it out and know enough to return or keep in 2 hours. That's a very fair amount of time for lots of games.

However, for game like X4 - when steam starts hour clock soon as executable launches and stays loaded - it takes quite awhile just to explore the game settings, controller and keyboard controls, much less fumble about with the first few tutorials. Is that not an unreasonable statement or untrue in any way? How long did you take to just sit in the starter ship at dock, or right outside, getting just the basic controls of the game down?

For me, just to get the graphics settings, read-learn and remap some of the controls took quite awhile. For sure more than an hour and possibly as long as 2 just for that first step. Add the stuck in tutorials, pausing game (but clock still running) to read on possible solutions, etc - 4.6 hours went by before I determined that if I can't even get through tutorials, then I'd better return this.

Perhaps common sense and being honest is lost nowadays, but I don't slam devs who seem to be trying in earnest, nor do I abuse a system just because the letter of the law says it is possible. I can admire the attempts ES devs are making while at same time conclude the game isn't worth my wallet at this time. I also can hold steam to a standard they've self imposed.

So the TLDR is I don't think you can reasonably assign an exact X.X hours played for every single game other than as a general rule of thumb and then make case by case exception - how deep the intro curve to a game is determines that in my opinion. I'm not an X series vet at all but lots of posts here are from players that are. Can they seriously say 4-5 hours just to get handle on this game is unreasonable?

[jacozilla]

Couldn't possibly be because valve is tired of people abusing their refund service for demo testing, could it?
(That's the exact reason they are getting harsher on refunds btw)

Oh I certainly see that, and acknowledge it. The difference between adequate vs great customer service though is in the grey areas. In actually applying specific context to each request and not blanket rule.

e.g. by all means, catch the abusers - just try not to catch the good customers in the same net.

User history counts - how many refund requests has this guy made? Vs purchases? What is the nature of this game vs. another? The problem isn't whether Valve is getting harsher re: ppl abusing their refund policy - they darn well ought to. It's what -filters- they use to catch the perceived abusers vs regular joes.

I've got exactly 1 refund request since starting with steam and refund policy went into effect. I've bought at least 4-5 games a year from them. I'm not the guy they are looking for re: refund abuse. And regardless of all that, if you are a gamer like me, then you ought to agree the customer service dept at a gaming company ought to -in ideal world that never seems happens but we can still wish right?- be staffed with knowledgeable enough workers that understand the learning curve for game like X4 is lot different than others.

I'm not confused in any way why some support worker who may never have heard of X series blindly cancels my refund request. I do wish however it were different, hence the speaking out.

[CaptainX4]

So the question is you want steam to issue a refund past 2.0 hours for this game or all games?

they should give for all games that are broken. and this IS broken.

OP, go on, write a nice friendly email to egosoft support about how you feel, like the game being half-done full of gamebreaking bugs like the dead economy and war and that you understand that they might fix it later but its not worth your money and that you would like to get refund... be nice, dont forget you are ASKING not demanding. then if they answer saying that steam SHOULD give you refund, go back to them with ego's answer. you might have luck this way...

[StoneLegionYT]

So the question is you want steam to issue a refund past 2.0 hours for this game or all games?

they should give for all games that are broken. and this IS broken.

OP, go on, write a nice friendly email to egosoft support about how you feel, like the game being half-done full of gamebreaking bugs like the dead economy and war and that you understand that they might fix it later but its not worth your money and that you would like to get refund... be nice, dont forget you are ASKING not demanding. then if they answer saying that steam SHOULD give you refund, go back to them with ego's answer. you might have luck this way...

Game working fine here. You sure you got the right game?

[CaptainX4]

So the question is you want steam to issue a refund past 2.0 hours for this game or all games?

they should give for all games that are broken. and this IS broken.

OP, go on, write a nice friendly email to egosoft support about how you feel, like the game being half-done full of gamebreaking bugs like the dead economy and war and that you understand that they might fix it later but its not worth your money and that you would like to get refund... be nice, dont forget you are ASKING not demanding. then if they answer saying that steam SHOULD give you refund, go back to them with ego's answer. you might have luck this way...

Game working fine here. You sure you got the right game?

ignoring the flaws doesnt mean they are not there. if it would run so great there would be no stream of patches

[jasonbarron]

Like any consumer though, only way is vote with wallet, so while I'll certainly give ES another attempt down the line given their sincerity and efforts, I'm pretty much done ever buying another title on steam. I'll just suck it up and not play anything that is steam exclusive.

Yes, I'm sure that Steam will miss you.

[CaptainX4]

Like any consumer though, only way is vote with wallet, so while I'll certainly give ES another attempt down the line given their sincerity and efforts, I'm pretty much done ever buying another title on steam. I'll just suck it up and not play anything that is steam exclusive.

Yes, I'm sure that Steam will miss you.

Yes, Im sure being rude is the way to go...

[StoneLegionYT]

they should give for all games that are broken. and this IS broken.

OP, go on, write a nice friendly email to egosoft support about how you feel, like the game being half-done full of gamebreaking bugs like the dead economy and war and that you understand that they might fix it later but its not worth your money and that you would like to get refund... be nice, dont forget you are ASKING not demanding. then if they answer saying that steam SHOULD give you refund, go back to them with ego's answer. you might have luck this way...

Game working fine here. You sure you got the right game?

ignoring the flaws doesnt mean they are not there. if it would run so great there would be no stream of patches

That is a lie. These devs would be adding content and suggestions as well. That is the kind of awesome devs we have. Sure it's not flawless but you paid for knowing what this company was. If you did not then you impulsed buy without research. You going to cry over this little money imagine when you get out the basement and buy a home.

[CaptainX4]

Game working fine here. You sure you got the right game?

ignoring the flaws doesnt mean they are not there. if it would run so great there would be no stream of patches

That is a lie. These devs would be adding content and suggestions as well. That is the kind of awesome devs we have. Sure it's not flawless but you paid for knowing what this company was. If you did not then you impulsed buy without research. You going to cry over this little money imagine when you get out the basement and buy a home.

so now im a liar too and live in the basement, do you have some more personal attacks please... wonder when admins will finally stand up against your kind of "fan"-s as I see you do this like if this was our job here, attacking everybody who dares to tell the truth

[jasonbarron]

Like any consumer though, only way is vote with wallet, so while I'll certainly give ES another attempt down the line given their sincerity and efforts, I'm pretty much done ever buying another title on steam. I'll just suck it up and not play anything that is steam exclusive.

Yes, I'm sure that Steam will miss you.

Yes, Im sure being rude is the way to go...

I'm not being rude, I'm pointing out the obvious; for every person who unreasonably thinks that they can play a game for 4-6 hours (the average length of many new triple A releases nowadays it seems) before holding out their palm for a refund, there are several thousand who think they deliver a fantastic service and will continue to utilize it.