Map size increase in the future?

[zanzibarwinds]

Hi

So far I am very happy with the game, major improvement since X3. Obviously I can only assume with patches, updates and future expansions more will be added to the game.

Having said that the only thing I was disappointed with was the small size of the X4 universe. I assume the map size will be increased at some stage and to a much larger degree ?

Either way, many thanks Egosoft.

[Alareth]

I've seen several inactive gates scattered about. Based on past X experience these will activate as the dlc is added to make the galaxy bigger.

[EmperorDragon]

Yeah, and we will probably have to dole out more cash for that DLC.

To be brutally honest, larger universe, player shipyards and player claimable sectors are three things that would be shameless to ask more money for, it should have been in the game from the start. The universe is waaay too small and needs a lot of additions before Ego can start pushing out paid DLC. As for player shipyards and claimable sectors, I refused to believe it at first but, it became quite apparent that these functions was indeed left out of the game.

Get the game up to standard first, then they can start thinking about DLC.

[Perahoky]

LOL
Look to other games.
Every big title nowaday comes with DLC's at release!

So it's just fair to give egosoft money for a new DLC with more content and functions to get them proceed to work.

Look at Bioshock DLCs, Just Cause 4 Day 1 DLCs, SimCity DLCs (the baloon was in simcity 4 natively without dlcs) and so on.
(to be fair, the bioshock dlcs are ok but splitted into 2)

I dont understand why so many people fire against egosoft despite it supports its games a lifetime.

And till now, you have no clue whats in a dlc's.

Till today, every egosoft dlc was worth it.

[JamesTheClarke]

Till today, every egosoft dlc was worth it.

So far every past DLC was worth it because the base games were always bigger than the last and the DLCs expanded them even further. That's the definition of a good DLC and most people won't take issue with that.

I think a lot of people, me included, are currently worried about the prospect of paid DLCs because this is the first X game that is significantly smaller than the previous base instalment (without DLC). Half the major factions missing, fewer minor-factions that are less defined and a smaller ship catalogue at launch. If Borons, Terrans and Split will be paid DLC the customers with have basically paid just to get the game to the same scope of what the X3 base game was. That's not an expansion of content, it would be an overall reduction per Dollar spent.

Right now we don't know anything about the DLC plans of Egosoft, so I'm still waiting on a clear roadmap/announcement before making up my mind fully. But the worries and associated frustrations of X vets are not unfounded, as this is the very first X game that ever cut away major factions on release.

[Kadatherion]

It is indeed very small, only 50ish systems, some of wich with multiple sectors. It's only the absence of a jumpdrive that makes the universe feel a tiny bit bigger than what it really is. But I'm not surprised: they have two expansions planned, and since half the major races aren't in the game right now, it would seem natural to expect those expansions will bring them back with the new map sectors needed to house them.

[Kadatherion]

I think a lot of people, me included, are currently worried about the prospect of paid DLCs because this is the first X game that is significantly smaller than the previous base instalment (without DLC). Half the major factions missing, fewer minor-factions that are less defined and a smaller ship catalogue at launch. If Borons, Terrans and Split will be paid DLC the customers with have basically paid just to get the game to the same scope of what the X3 base game was. That's not an expansion of content, it would be an overall reduction per Dollar spent.

It's a case of The Sims (and many, many other popular game series out there: Total War? Civilizations?). Not that I like it either, but it's becoming more and more the norm in the industry.

[Ravenousw]

Yeah, and we will probably have to dole out more cash for that DLC.

To be brutally honest, larger universe, player shipyards and player claimable sectors are three things that would be shameless to ask more money for, it should have been in the game from the start. The universe is waaay too small and needs a lot of additions before Ego can start pushing out paid DLC. As for player shipyards and claimable sectors, I refused to believe it at first but, it became quite apparent that these functions was indeed left out of the game.

Get the game up to standard first, then they can start thinking about DLC.

According to this : https://roguey.co.uk/x4/factions/argon/
We already do have the capability to produce ships ourselves tho’, so if that’s something you want to do, then have at it and grind your faction-of-choice’s rank

«Federation Ancillary Ship Building Module Licence
100,000,000 cr, Member (27), Ceremonyally»

«Federation Capital Ship Building Module Licence
500,000,000 cr, Ally (30), Ceremonyally»

Claimable sectors shouldn’t require a DLC to get done, and I believe Egosoft has done bigger things than that in free patches in earlier games, haven’t they?

[Kadatherion]

Claiming sectors always was a bit of a gimmick, very easy to implement, very hard to give actual meaning to. Only mods - and only a couple of them - ever made that function meaningful. Now that we have (or, well, should have) a dynamic war mechanic in the game from the get go and not have to rely to modders for that, we could expect something like that from Ego, but it's going to take a long time.

The actual universe map/travel system/interface doesn't really work well for sector claiming though, as it did with the much simplier X3 layout, and Egosoft was never much into making the player be able to really ever do everything alone and self sufficiently as a npc race can, so I also believe we shouldn't expect *too much* in that department. But it's the kind of feature that deeply ties into the core game war and expansion mechanic, a mechanic that's quite evidently borked and/or unfinished right now, so once they patch and balance it in the coming months I'd expect the rather "collateral" addition of the player being able to do the same to be something that's going to naturally come for free from one of those patches, as it was in the past.

Really, paid DLC are going to be for the flashy things that are easier to sell: "hey guys, here you have the Terrans back! They come with a full implement of 20 new amazing ships and a new galaxy area, get them while they are hot!" sells a lot more than "oh, we made a script that allows you to claim a sector, which means its borders are going to become green, have fun!". That's the kind of thing that often comes in parallel with a paid expansion as the content of the less enticing free patch that's released at the same time as the DLC.

[Ravenousw]

I think a lot of people, me included, are currently worried about the prospect of paid DLCs because this is the first X game that is significantly smaller than the previous base instalment (without DLC). Half the major factions missing, fewer minor-factions that are less defined and a smaller ship catalogue at launch. If Borons, Terrans and Split will be paid DLC the customers with have basically paid just to get the game to the same scope of what the X3 base game was. That's not an expansion of content, it would be an overall reduction per Dollar spent.

Keep in mind that this entry in the series is doing a whole lot of different things than X3 did too, cockpits for all ships where X3 had none for any, walking around and actual NPC models, Station interiors, ship interiors and all the other stuff like gas-mining, and actual economy-simulation along with probably a bunch of stuff behind the scenes that required a lot of work that X3 didn’t need because of the way that game was built compared to this one.

I will be the first to agreee that the X4 we currently have seems pretty barebones at the moment, but for some reason I’m feeling pretty confident that we will be getting alot of stuff thrown into free patches and added alongside the paid content (aka added to the base game regardless of wether or not you buy any DLC) in the DLC’s when they show up.

I just hope that my hopes will be realized sooner rather than later, as I really feel that the impact capital-class ships are negible at best when they can’t have more weapons than an M6 used to have back in the day, and they currently can’t seem to hit anything smaller than the size an M2 used to be back in the day...in other words, stations in X4

[JamesTheClarke]

It's a case of The Sims (and many, many other popular game series out there: Total War? Civilizations?). Not that I like it either, but it's becoming more and more the norm in the industry.

I don't deny that at all, but I do not think it's a smart or good business practice. Sure it leads to higher profitsss for a few games but if overdone it can and will lead to the demise of the game series or even the studio itself when eventually competitors realize the available market share.


The Sims has completely collapsed due to their last installment is now replaced by Cities Skyline.

Total War gotten a massive backlash over Rome 2 and Attila DLC practices and especially in Warhammer 2 their DLC and free content updates actually offer a decent value proposition once again.

Civilisation 6 sales are way down compared to 5 due to the bland and buggy "Space Civ" entry and the fact that once again all the DLC content introduced by Civ 4 has to be rebought in individual DLCs just like in Civ 5. I don't believe a Civ 7 is going to be very successful anymore if they don't change course a bit.


The game industry has created some pretty bad practices over the last decade, but slowly and surely there is a greater realization by consumers of what they deem acceptable and through feedback and sales impact companies are noticing said increased awareness as well. But we're getting a bit off-topic here. My two cents in short: just because anti-consumer practices are rampant in other games doesn't make it ok or acceptable in game XYZ.

Keep in mind that this entry in the series is doing a whole lot of different things than X3 did too, cockpits for all ships where X3 had none for any, walking around and actual NPC models, Station interiors, ship interiors and all the other stuff like gas-mining, and actual economy-simulation along with probably a bunch of stuff behind the scenes that required a lot of work that X3 didn’t need because of the way that game was built compared to this one.

I get that and honestly I wouldn't be as concerned if the three races would have started with a larger ship catalogue - less "wide" content but more "deep". To me, that would have been a clear reassurance that big things are coming soon. Right now I see not only a reduction of factions but also ships plus underdeveloped sub-factions. I'd also really appreciate a communicated roadmap, because it is unprecedented that major story factions are not part of the initial release.

Again, not saying "aaaaaaah everything is bad, abandon ship!" Just quite worried about the DLC cut content potential. As I said, overall I freaking love X4 at its core. Been playing it every day since launch and aside from the bugs having a blast.

[Knightdark]

Okay, and here I was thinking that the galaxy is actually pretty big. Is the current galaxy, such as it is, smaller, bigger or about the same in size when compared to previous entries? (without dlc) and then after dlc? Also, is it possible to add in new sectors through mods or is that impossible?

[StoneLegionYT]

I just want to state that I find the map quite large and in depth compared to X3 with all the expansions. It's crazy too when you go further out in the sector the map scales down it's quite fancy as hell.

I think the biggest issue is there so many great travel options that people are finding the map smaller in that scale. I love it now I don't want to spend 99% of my time afking in seta just to go from sector to sector.

[GrahamSimmons]

Till today, every egosoft dlc was worth it.

So far every past DLC was worth it because the base games were always bigger than the last and the DLCs expanded them even further. That's the definition of a good DLC and most people won't take issue with that.

I think a lot of people, me included, are currently worried about the prospect of paid DLCs because this is the first X game that is significantly smaller than the previous base instalment (without DLC). Half the major factions missing, fewer minor-factions that are less defined and a smaller ship catalogue at launch. If Borons, Terrans and Split will be paid DLC the customers with have basically paid just to get the game to the same scope of what the X3 base game was. That's not an expansion of content, it would be an overall reduction per Dollar spent.

Right now we don't know anything about the DLC plans of Egosoft, so I'm still waiting on a clear roadmap/announcement before making up my mind fully. But the worries and associated frustrations of X vets are not unfounded, as this is the very first X game that ever cut away major factions on release.

We have more ships and space than X3:R did at launch. TC and AP went on to almost triple the game's content and you can be sure the same will happen here.

[Arze]

For now I would love to have the map stay in place and not grow infinitely. I also would LOVE if my scout ships could actually scout.- I want the achievement for finding all the sectors but there is no unused travel gate or anything so now I have to comb every sector by myself to find the last sector(s).

As for expanding the universe.... Unless they drastically optimize the game that will be impossible it already has too large requirements and gets out of super quickly especially after you get SETA.

[EmperorDragon]

LOL
Look to other games.
Every big title nowaday comes with DLC's at release!

So it's just fair to give egosoft money for a new DLC with more content and functions to get them proceed to work.

Look at Bioshock DLCs, Just Cause 4 Day 1 DLCs, SimCity DLCs (the baloon was in simcity 4 natively without dlcs) and so on.
(to be fair, the bioshock dlcs are ok but splitted into 2)

I dont understand why so many people fire against egosoft despite it supports its games a lifetime.

And till now, you have no clue whats in a dlc's.

Till today, every egosoft dlc was worth it.

Lord almighty! Are you actually defending such fraudulent consumerism?! Proper expansions is always cool, but day one DLC and withholding content for later paid release, you actually agree with that? And your reason is because everyone else do it so Egosoft should too? Talk about herding the flock...

May Egosoft never become such a corporatist greysuit developer as the ones you mentioned.

Okay, and here I was thinking that the galaxy is actually pretty big. Is the current galaxy, such as it is, smaller, bigger or about the same in size when compared to previous entries? (without dlc) and then after dlc? Also, is it possible to add in new sectors through mods or is that impossible?

It is roughly the same size as Rebirth, far smaller than vanilla Reunion. I spent days exploring Reunion's universe (albeit with a slow Colossus) and still missed some hidden "off the beaten path" sectors. In X4, I expected this: "A MASSIVE UNIVERSE awaits - sheer endless opportunities for exploration" - quoting Egosoft.

As for creating custom sectors, it should be possible in X4 as well, will check it out eventually. Adding sectors in X3 was easy, Rebirth was a bit more complicated because you had to position everything correctly for highways to line up properly. If you use only jumpgates to link your sectors and no highways, then it was pretty straightforward as well. Adding AI jobs to your sectors and zones took a bit more work though.

[MutantDwarf]

Yeah, and we will probably have to dole out more cash for that DLC.

To be brutally honest, larger universe, player shipyards and player claimable sectors are three things that would be shameless to ask more money for, it should have been in the game from the start. The universe is waaay too small and needs a lot of additions before Ego can start pushing out paid DLC. As for player shipyards and claimable sectors, I refused to believe it at first but, it became quite apparent that these functions was indeed left out of the game.

Get the game up to standard first, then they can start thinking about DLC.

Player-claimable sectors are in the game (you just need more admin centers on your stations in the sector than anyone else), and everything indicates that player shipyards will be added in in a post-release patch in the next few months along with the asynchronous multiplayer stuff (not as a DLC, but as a free patch).

The universe size really isn't that small. It's about 55 sectors, each of which is something like five times larger in linear dimensions than any of the X3 sectors. Yeah, I'd like it to be bigger - but that's probably coming with paid DLC, along with content to fill those sectors.

Without content added to those sectors there's no real driving need for the universe size to triple.

I think a lot of people, me included, are currently worried about the prospect of paid DLCs because this is the first X game that is significantly smaller than the previous base instalment (without DLC). Half the major factions missing, fewer minor-factions that are less defined and a smaller ship catalogue at launch. If Borons, Terrans and Split will be paid DLC the customers with have basically paid just to get the game to the same scope of what the X3 base game was. That's not an expansion of content, it would be an overall reduction per Dollar spent.

That's, uh, not true. X Rebirth was the last 'base game' to be released, and Rebirth was not larger than X3 Reunion was at launch.

[Hardie]

dlc would increase the amount of sectors in the game. the sectors themselves can apparently grow if you just fly out. so they are bigger than they initially appear. but without the ability to build highways you need a good travel drive to access these far away stations. Some sectors even have Stations 600-800 km out. First i though it was a buggy way-point until i flew there.

[JamesTheClarke]

We have more ships and space than X3:R did at launch. TC and AP went on to almost triple the game's content and you can be sure the same will happen here.

The list of ships of X3 Reunion shows that the total amount of ships is smaller at launch in X4. You can maybe make an argument by discounting certain variants, but the fact that three of six major factions are missing compounds the issue further to a significantly smaller value proposition of this product when compared to its predecessor. That's a problem created by the unprecedented decision to not release half of the story cast at launch while leaving the possibility of those factions becoming paid DLC up in the air.

As you said the expansions of the past significantly expanded the base game with new and interesting sub-factions and a ton of new ships. However, right now we are facing the possibility of having to pay for the first expansions just to get the number of factions back to the last base game. That reminds me of the first year of Civ 5 where I spent an additional 100 bucks on DLC just to get to the point where Civ 4 ended - don't get me wrong, Civ 5 ended up being a great game but the DLC practice still rubbed me the wrong way. Whether or not those prospects are worrying or bothering you is of course very subjective and personal. I for once believe that the main factions should be part of free content updates while the new sub-factions, story packs, new sector biomes, a space fauna implementation (X3TC Xtended style) and maybe even a new main faction (haven't had one of those in ages) are fair-game DLC content. The same applies to whether or not people feel this should have been early access priced at 30 bucks - assessing value in a product is highly subjective and I don't believe either view on it is wrong per se. If you feel X4 was worth 50-60 dollars the more power to you. I'm not discounting that view at all - just stating that to me X4 lost in value compared to X3.

That's, uh, not true. X Rebirth was the last 'base game' to be released, and Rebirth was not larger than X3 Reunion was at launch.

The game is called X4, not X:R2, thus clearly establishing which game it is succeeding in the series.

Rebirth was in scope and design a spin-off title aiming for a different experience than X2 or X3.

That would be like calling Wario a sequel to Super Mario, yeah they are both part of the same franchise, but not the same game series.

[MutantDwarf]

That's, uh, not true. X Rebirth was the last 'base game' to be released, and Rebirth was not larger than X3 Reunion was at launch.

The game is called X4, not X:R2, thus clearly establishing which game it is succeeding in the series.

Rebirth was in scope and design a spin-off title aiming for a different experience than X2 or X3.

That would be like calling Mario Party a sequel to Super Mario, yeah they are both part of the same franchise, but not the same game series.

If you want to think of it that way, then sure. X4 is smaller in content than X3: Reunion was at launch.

But X4 is much closer to being a sequel to X:R in terms of 'amount of effort required to create the game' than it is a sequel to X3. The only feature truly different between X3 and X:R was that in Rebirth you could only fly one ship; everything else was iterative, in a fashion (differences, sure, but nothing absolutely monstrous). In that sense, X:R is much closer to being the same game series as X3 than Super Mario is to Mario Party; Mario Party and Super Mario only have the characters as similar, everything else is different, while X:R is almost the same exact gameplay as earlier games in the X series.

Rebirth really wasn't different in scope or design or aiming for a different experience from X2 or X3. The lack of being able to fly different ships was a pretty big change, but it wasn't out of some desire to create a different experience - it was because they didn't have the budget to make it so you could fly anything.