So, theres somebody on Steam that dug through the game files and came up with the conclusion that X4s economy simulation is faked. Somewho cut out and replaced with a fake simulation to look real. Maybe because the game was once again not ready at all for release.
If hes right it would mean that all the stuff about the simulated, dynamic universe was a PR gag?!?
Whats going on here? Did anybody else actually decompiled and dug the exe's and scripts? Could this be true?
Original text and link:
I went through some of the game files...
The economy seems a little more static than perhaps people thought.
It seems perhaps certain actions imply a change should occur to certain things in the game. rather than a breathing economy which is based on the world around it, its actually based directly on certain player related actions, which make slight changes to the existing world for example, auto trading basically has near no effect on the economy, however if you were to trade yourself. You may see bigger price flucutaions. Similarly, building a station yourself can affect the economy however, stations built by AI effectively does not.
Principally, player direct action seems to affect the world...in a sort of static way, but AI actions are far less relevant and do very little in the way of a dynamic world. This might be why some worlds seem static whilst other do not. A player building a fleeting and manually attacking a station would change something in the game vs you sending a fleeting of AI to do the same thing which would offer relatively no change to the economy.
VariousArtist wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:08
So, theres somebody on Steam that dug through the game files and came up with the conclusion that X4s economy simulation is faked. Somewho cut out and replaced with a fake simulation to look real. Maybe because the game was once again not ready at all for release.
If hes right it would mean that all the stuff about the simulated, dynamic universe was a PR gag?!?
Whats going on here? Did anybody else actually decompiled and dug the exe's and scripts? Could this be true?
Original text and link:
I went through some of the game files...
The economy seems a little more static than perhaps people thought.
It seems perhaps certain actions imply a change should occur to certain things in the game. rather than a breathing economy which is based on the world around it, its actually based directly on certain player related actions, which make slight changes to the existing world for example, auto trading basically has near no effect on the economy, however if you were to trade yourself. You may see bigger price flucutaions. Similarly, building a station yourself can affect the economy however, stations built by AI effectively does not.
Principally, player direct action seems to affect the world...in a sort of static way, but AI actions are far less relevant and do very little in the way of a dynamic world. This might be why some worlds seem static whilst other do not. A player building a fleeting and manually attacking a station would change something in the game vs you sending a fleeting of AI to do the same thing which would offer relatively no change to the economy.
Why are you even posting this here? There is not a single piece of evidence or anything in that person's comments. It is just vague statements. Because he said he looked in the code it must be true? Not to mention I went to the steam post and saw nothing at all there. The guy didn't even repost about why he made these assumptions.
Not saying I don't believe him, but every time someone has asked him to cite his source, or explain how he came to that conclusion with what code he has looked at, he has either dodged the question or not responded.
I am a very strong advocate for a real dynamic economy and I voiced my criticism in another thread, but this guy is pulling stuff out of his ass. I am a Software Developer (although not for games) and believe me when I tell you that decompiling EXE files (at best) produces a lot of barely human readable gibberish. If this guy looked at anything, it was probably the script files. And if he found something there, he still owes us that sources.
Last edited by Nexuscrawler on Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:41, edited 2 times in total.
"Populanten von transparenten Domizilen mit fragiler Außenstruktur sollten mit fester Materie keine transzendenten Bewegungen durchführen."
BlackRain, this is how research into a topic starts. Theres a claim and it needs verification or falsification.
So far hes not complaining about the game but was trying to look into the issue that some players have a very active universe while others complain that nothing is going on with their enemies. More as a side effect he stumbled over this potential issue.
Why here? Well, if theres something true about this topic then Egosoft did not implement the dynamic economy they claimed they have. I hope this forum is not about hissing at people that actually dig into the works or Egosoft and look for answers? Transparency shouldnt be a problem?!
Nexuscrawler wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:38and believe me when I tell you that decompiling EXE files (at best) produces a lot of barely human readable gibberish. If this guy looked at anything, it was probably the script files. And if he found something there, he still owes us that sources.
Yes, he confirmed that the source is obfuscated. And Im sure you know that, while its not easy readable, you can make sense of obfuscated code.
And you should also know that youre legally not allowed to post such code in public.
Nexuscrawler wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:38
I am a very strong advocate for a real dynamic economy and I voiced my criticism in another thread, but this guy is pulling stuff out of his ass. I am a Software Developer (although not for games) and believe me when I tell you that decompiling EXE files (at best) produces a lot of barely human readable gibberish. If this guy looked at anything, it was probably the script files. And if he found something there, he still owes us that sources.
Well, economy runs from the scripts but posting proof wold mean posting probably hundreds of script lines that is just as much unreadable for the general public than the reverse engineered code so I wouldnt jump into conclusions on this. An other thing though that Im just watching the life running around me it seems that traders dont do much (there arent even really many traders to run an economy like this).
VariousArtist wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:47
BlackRain, this is how research into a topic starts. Theres a claim and it needs verification or falsification.
So far hes not complaining about the game but was trying to look into the issue that some players have a very active universe while others complain that nothing is going on with their enemies. More as a side effect he stumbled over this potential issue.
Why here? Well, if theres something true about this topic then Egosoft did not implement the dynamic economy they claimed they have. I hope this forum is not about hissing at people that actually dig into the works or Egosoft and look for answers? Transparency shouldnt be a problem?!
Making claims without evidence is utter nonsense. I can make any claim I want, doesn't mean anything without something to back it up. You are just posting slander otherwise. The point is, you just reposted what someone else said without a single shred of evidence. It would be one thing if you posted a claim with subsequent evidence or at least some form of objective reasoning, but just making a claim and then your evidence is "because I looked in the code" is not convincing. He hasn't even mentioned which scripts do what he says they do. I am not even denying whether or not the claim is right, but how it is presented is ludicrous. Okay, you are making these claims, then show me where I can see the evidence please. Otherwise I could say that i think under hood there are space dinosaurs eating up the xenon ships, you just can't see them because they disappear whenever you get close. This is why Xenon aren't attacking you in Argon prime!
Nexuscrawler wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:38
I am a very strong advocate for a real dynamic economy and I voiced my criticism in another thread, but this guy is pulling stuff out of his ass. I am a Software Developer (although not for games) and believe me when I tell you that decompiling EXE files (at best) produces a lot of barely human readable gibberish. If this guy looked at anything, it was probably the script files. And if he found something there, he still owes us that sources.
Well, economy runs from the scripts but posting proof wold mean posting probably hundreds of script lines that is just as much unreadable for the general public than the reverse engineered code so I wouldnt jump into conclusions on this. An other thing though that Im just watching the life running around me it seems that traders dont do much (there arent even really many traders to run an economy like this).
You don't need to post lines of code, just simply the files to look into. For example, I know for a fact that most ships are built at shipyards because I saw the code. There is also a quota for the ships and the quota can not be exceeded. When ships are destroyed, the factions will build more as long as they dont reach the quota. This will of course affect everything else. So how is this not dynamic? It affects trading, buying/selling of goods, mining, etc. Also, in my game, the AI has built many stations and the economy is pretty solid. I have noticed lots of fluctuations in prices and I only have 3 autotraders, 1 miner and the PHQ station. I haven't done anything else. The only thing that annoys me is the lack of enemies but this is because of other reasons.
BlackRain wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:04I haven't done anything else. The only thing that annoys me is the lack of enemies but this is because of other reasons.
VariousArtist wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 18:47
BlackRain, this is how research into a topic starts. Theres a claim and it needs verification or falsification.
You can't just make a claim out of a claim?! He is making unproven statements (verifications) about a problem other people have and that's stupid. Either you have prove to begin with or not. There is nothing to falsify or verificate here.
How about me claiming that he wrote me that he was wrong. Please open a new topic to start a discussion about verificating or falsificating this now.
BlackRain wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:04I haven't done anything else. The only thing that annoys me is the lack of enemies but this is because of other reasons.
What are those reasons, if i may ask?
What I mean is, the quotas defined in jobs are too small. Most likely because they have to cater to a range of pc's from low to high. I already am playing around with the jobs.xml file to increase ships. I am just playing around with it now and will experiment more but I actually saw a fleet of paranid ships go into faulty logic which is a xenon sector and I saw a paranid builder ship in there, must be doing something (which is not related to me).
BlackRain wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:04So how is this not dynamic?
Theres an answer to a question to detail the possible findings:
The game is effectively a static seed, on start. AI actions are not taken into account unless they directly do something in relation to the player.
Auto trading, does not change prices, or change supply and demand, the same station will be fullfilled for the time the ship is docked and then it will need the same supplies again.
Auto mining does not affect the amount of resource available in the same way as manual mining might. Ore deliveries dont translate into goods. The game makes assumptions these things are happening and keeps simulated changes to an absolute bare minimum. Basically it spawns things on the basis other things are happening but to such a small degree. It makes the universe feel static.
All larger changes and true simulated stuff is actually just static changes which occur ONLY when the player himself is actively doing said activity.
For example, after 3-5 trades manually prices of wares will change in most cases quite significantly along with supply and demand. An auto trader next to no effect. All auto traders do is determine whether a demand is fullfilled i.e. i need 300 , i now have 300. I now need 0. That is as far as the simulation goes in terms of automated activities.
similarly if you are mining, you can deplete resources hugely faster than thousands of AI doing the same thing.
Basically, if you do stuff manually, you will see more stuff happen but it is not true simulation.
If you do stuff auto matically your universe will barely change and feel significantly more static.
This appears to by why there are so many contradicting views of the game and the universe simulation.
There is very little actual simulation.
BlackRain wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:04So how is this not dynamic?
Theres an answer to a question to detail the possible findings:
The game is effectively a static seed, on start. AI actions are not taken into account unless they directly do something in relation to the player.
Auto trading, does not change prices, or change supply and demand, the same station will be fullfilled for the time the ship is docked and then it will need the same supplies again.
Auto mining does not affect the amount of resource available in the same way as manual mining might. Ore deliveries dont translate into goods. The game makes assumptions these things are happening and keeps simulated changes to an absolute bare minimum. Basically it spawns things on the basis other things are happening but to such a small degree. It makes the universe feel static.
All larger changes and true simulated stuff is actually just static changes which occur ONLY when the player himself is actively doing said activity.
For example, after 3-5 trades manually prices of wares will change in most cases quite significantly along with supply and demand. An auto trader next to no effect. All auto traders do is determine whether a demand is fullfilled i.e. i need 300 , i now have 300. I now need 0. That is as far as the simulation goes in terms of automated activities.
similarly if you are mining, you can deplete resources hugely faster than thousands of AI doing the same thing.
Basically, if you do stuff manually, you will see more stuff happen but it is not true simulation.
If you do stuff auto matically your universe will barely change and feel significantly more static.
This appears to by why there are so many contradicting views of the game and the universe simulation.
There is very little actual simulation.
I already read through everything the guy said, and everything he said is pure conjecture. Also, it is not true in my experience. I am seeing A TON of economic activity and I am not doing anything special. All my traders are automated, I don't do a single manual trade. I also only have 3 auto traders, one auto miner. The universe is definitely moving all around me without my help. My problem, as I said, is the lack of enemy ships due to what is defined in jobs.xml. I am looking forward to testing increasing this by a lot. There are now over 300 stations in the areas I have explored too, which is more than before. I have even seen a station being constructed and expanded before my eyes.
Except if the game was coded using a framework like .net, you need to decompile EXE and DLLs and read them in assembly language to figure out how the game is coded, and figuring out game mechanic that way isn't the easiest thing to do.
1. Make all stations visible.
2. Select a primary resource(Production output). Go in and delete/destroy all of one type of station and any production of the that resource.
3. Watch to see if the factions scramble to build more to fill the demand and that none of those resources are being magically created in any serious numbers.
4. If that proves you have a dynamic faction then test it with a secondary resource (Intermediate output) this time.
5. Then if that works truly screw the pooch by trashing a base resource (Energy Cells or a Food one).
6. You will know if you have a fully dynamic universe or not.
Last edited by Lyth on Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.
BlackRain is absolutely right. Without supporting evidence, the claim is worthless. If I claim the moon's made out of marshmallows with nothing to back it up, it's not your responsibility to fly up there and prove me wrong. Even if you do go up there and bring back some moon rocks, I can just say that the marshmallow got transmuted into rock dust by magic space narwhals, then what are you going to do?
BlackRain wrote: ↑Tue, 4. Dec 18, 19:04
You don't need to post lines of code, just simply the files to look into. For example, I know for a fact that most ships are built at shipyards because I saw the code. There is also a quota for the ships and the quota can not be exceeded. When ships are destroyed, the factions will build more as long as they dont reach the quota. This will of course affect everything else. So how is this not dynamic? It affects trading, buying/selling of goods, mining, etc. Also, in my game, the AI has built many stations and the economy is pretty solid. I have noticed lots of fluctuations in prices and I only have 3 autotraders, 1 miner and the PHQ station. I haven't done anything else. The only thing that annoys me is the lack of enemies but this is because of other reasons.
Well, they build, but where the used wares are coming from? i've bought so many ships all from the same station and it never ever run out of resources even though there are barely any traders running around but what the worst is, ive just been watching 2 construction vessels building up stations without ANY trading ships coming to them. not a single one. just came, built up the stations in no time and left. unless they have bought all the wares before launch, it was very obviously fake...
