How important is Education?

[Mightysword]

Quote#1

We have pushed a message to our young generation that they have an intrinsic value to society and that they fully deserve this. This is very true - All human beings should be valued for who they are, not what they are.

Quote#2

Then, when left to their own devices to be "free" and set on the road and told to pick a direction, when they make a bad choice because nobody has acted to help them form a credible and desirable one, we tell them "thanks for playing, you have gained nothing, please deposit $250 this month to make your payment on your student loan for a non-viable degree."

Quote #3

However, even so, I doubt that any time in the near future will there be a period in which we no longer need skilled vocational labor or even semi-skilled workers to fill vital roles.

Quote #4
It may be a buzzphrase, but it is fully justifiable given modern political and social thought. We have a "duty" to provide such an environment for every person.

Quote #5

Equal access fixes nothing. You need to find out how to help people understand the value of education to them personally.

If the education you're offering isn't of value, how can they find the education that is?

I hate it when I see students who I can plainly see have been badly advised and aren't suited to university life at all.

All of these quotes relate to the point I'm trying to make, so I'll refer to them with their # without any particular order.

@Quote #4. First, that's exactly what I mean by modern education is driven by political correctness and social engineering, and while you may argue it's morally justifiable it also sometime detach from reality. An ideal is simply an ideal no matter how good you think it is on paper, it is only as good as it can yield result. Remember communism is the best system there is on paper, but the reason it's that good on paper because it ignore reality, and thus it can't become reality.

Second: I have no problem with agreeing with that buzzphase "providing an environment where everyone can live up to their potential", and yes I think that's what we should do. However what I'm asking is what gonna happen to those who fail that "realizing potential process"? What is plan B? Right now, Plan B seem to be what you describe in Quote #2. Again, that buzz phase is spoken at every educational conference, but if you're at one next time after that line is uttered, raise your hand and ask the same question that I asked and see how ackward and silent the room will become. Because no one has answer to it, it's an elephant that people don't even want to acknowledge.


@Quote #5: it will fixes something, many thing or nothing at all depending on how one define "equal access". So help me some here, can someone define to me clearly what "equal access"?

- Does this mean everyone who want to can sign up for it?
- Does this mean everyone who want to and "able to" can sign up for it?

If it's the latter, great, if it's the former then it will fix nothing. Going back to #4, one can certainly argue that we're morally provide access to everyone and it's right. One can certainly argue that we're morally obliged to support anyone in pursuing their dream, and that "sounds" correct. BUT, are we morally obliged of stopping people going down the path that will ruin their life? Are we morally obliged of stopping people from making bad decision? It seems that idea here is that we don't want to put people down by our own sword because "feelbadman", but it seems we have no problem seeing and letting people die on their own sword while telling ourselves that it's ok, that was their choice and our hand is clean. Who gonna do the dirty job? Let's me ask you this: is it ethical to guide student down to a non-viable pass base on passion and freedom alone? In fact with the epedimic US students are facing, some circle is starting to ask that very same question.

An example for this is the advising system in some Asian country, take mine for example:

- Every students required to have a vocational certificate prior to graduating from highschools regardless of what you want to do. This is the system preparing you for your plan B. If necessary, you have a basic foundation to start an apprenticeship or join a tradeschool.
- The career counseling at the last year of high-school take into account of your aptitude, your family situation, your financial and all that. For example, if a student consistently have low mark on math and science tell the councilor it's his dream to become an engineer, he will be actively discouraged of doing so. The councilor will have no problem suggesting to join a vocational school over college if it's deemed more suitable to the student. Of course this is simply advising, we're not stopping anyone from doing what they want. It may sound bad, but IMO it's a lot better than sugarcoating it with thing like "oh that's your dream, that's great! You just have to do your best! No money, you can take out this loan and pay it back once you have that 6 digits salary job!" Advising is about giving advise, even if it's not a popular one, advisors are not supposed to be simple cheerleaders.


This tie back to quote #1 #3 and #5:

You go to any highschools graduation ceremony and you will often find the principals thumping their chest speaking proudly about the number of graduates got admitted into college and university. What they never mention though, is usually less than HALF of those number will finish a degree, and among those even a smaller amount received a meaningful degree.

As someone who hold several degree, I would like to think myself as above average intellectual wise. But the more I study, the more I'm aware the saying that not everyone will have the same aptitude in every subject is very much true. There are things that I'm just inept at studying, subjects that I have studied under both oriental and western method, as well as trying my own method and never achieve reasonable result. Some are not even subject I hate, in fact I love a few of them with a passion, doesn't make me better at them though. That's why mrbadger's point about not everyone are built for the same subject, and it's not because they're smart or stupid. But it's an unpopular idea because the political correct driven idea should be "everyone are equal", right?

My job have me dealing with people in vocational schools. And we get a lot of "type" of students: second chance highschool, drop out, ex-criminal, people who fail college, immigrants, people who have a non-viable degree ...etc... In short, the type who "chased the dream" and didn't get it. That makes me sad is that there is one group that is distinctly absence from vocational schools: fresh high-school graduate. Not a surprise really, like I said above the override directive is funnel as much of those students toward higher education regardless of their chance of success. Like I said, we're driving people base on prestige and glamour, not reality. Vocational school for one reason or another, seem to be the secondary choice.

And it's all the more frustrated when you realize a lot of these people are perfectly capable and smart individual. There were simply goat toward an environment unsuited to them. Had these people were guided toward this direction from the beginning they would not have:

- Wasted a few years of their life.
- Have a $20000+ student loan.
- take a bruise on their self-esteem.

But, they had to go to college/university so some other people and the society feel good about ourselves. Talk to them and it's not rare to see someone who used to chase a more loftier dream of being an architect or engineer, the common sentiment that they now realize it's just a dream, and they wish either someone or themselves have realize that sooner. About #3 like I mentioned in another thread, the US have a severe shortage of skill-labours. With just a couple of years of hard study, a wielder will more than likely find a job that pay higher that most job offered to a 4 years degree holder, so why Vocational School keep being treat and an undesirable destination.

And I want to close this post with another example, granted this one come from a game but I think it does have a point.

- The game has this very competent engineer that you can recruit to work on your ship. After a few chapters, when you're at a port he come to you and tell you that someone just make him a very offer to work for them. And he wants to ask you that as the captain, what do you think he should do, and the game gives you two options:

+ Tell him that it's complete up to him whether he decides to stay or leave the ship, he's free to choose.
+ Tell him that he's an important part of the crew and you would love him to stay.

If you pick the first option, he leave your ship. I forgot exactly what was said but in general he told you that's you're just being pretentious and lack the decisiveness of a captain. I know most people picked the first option, I know I did. Why? It feels correct, and it make me feel good. If you choose the 2nd option, than he will stay with you, again forget most of the text but I remember one sentence: he said "it's felt good that you are needed".


Remember, it's easy to do something that you agree with, but most of the time the harder decision is to make one that you don't agree with, but objectively good for the recipient (not necessary yourself). And that freedom of choice is precious, then think about this:

- When you give people all the freedom they ask for then yes, they can have the freedom of making the correct choice and the wrong choice as well.
- Look at yourself as an example. How many time in your life you didn't know what was the best option for you without hindsight. How many time that even when fully aware what is the best option for you to take, by nothing but your own freewill, you decided to take less optimal choice? How many time you made a decision knowing full well there are more chance it's going bad than success? I'll give you my answer: guilty on all counts too many damn times.

[Jericho]

Gender Studies for all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrbadger]

Spend just a day 'of piste' in India, then tell me that everyone has rights, cos everyone must just mean everyone within the 'nice' countries.

It sure isn't really everyone. It's a lovely dream, but I can't see it happening any time in the next few decades, probably not in this century.

I love India, but the poverty and sheer misery and horror of the lives so many people are forced to live isn't nice when you come face to face with it.

Then there's the smell, oh the smell....

I'm not surprised that so many people from that part of the world fail to understand what plagiarism is. They buy themselves out that misery the second they can.

Trying to get them to understand that buying essays and dissertations isn't allowed in the west is an uphill struggle, because some of them just can't grasp what we mean.

[Morkonan]

...Trying to get them to understand that buying essays and dissertations isn't allowed in the west is an uphill struggle, because some of them just can't grasp what we mean.

(Just a quick comment, 'cause I'm tryin' to be good and let other ppl speak. )

I'm reading "The Rise and Fall of Nations" by Ruchir Sharma. Excellent f'in book, a "must read" about the 2008-era economic collapse, how it effected nations, what we have learned from it regarding the economic mechanics, etc. (I highly recommend it, since it's a very insightful look at such things in recent history.)

Anway, he's from India and, wow, does he illuminate India's public sector, problems and black economy! Things like a 48% "teacher absentee" rate in public education, since teachers will get those jobs, but then go teach at a private school, instead, because they will get paid more there... Yet, they're still getting salaried from their public school teaching positions and nobody friggin' cares - It's "normalized."

The "Tea Room", where bribery is the order of business and where government officials sit at tables and simply collect money to expedite government services. (From other perspectives, not in the book, some people consider the "Bribery Economy" in India a good thing, since it allows people to bypass bad or corrupt laws... WTF?)

There's a host of other issues, of course, but the overall gist is that what you've encountered IS what happens, there. It's not unusual, this isn't something they're doing just to get a good grade or anything - This is their environment and that's what they do.

...because some of them just can't grasp what we mean.

You are exactly right in everything you posted. We can not solve "the World's" problems by looking at them through our own clouded glasses. We can't expect people to rush off for a college education when they don't have any clean drinking water. We can't expect them to "change so they're more like us" if they have never had any possible concept of what life in our societies is like.

Economic, technological advancement and even what we might consider to be "social advancement" is being made, across the board, throughout the World. It is happening, positively, at various rates. However, the same is true for economic/social/technological... "disparity." While advancement is happening, the rate of increase in disparity is also advancing. In other words, the gaps are also increasing between the Haves and Havenots or the "fed" and the "fednots." Success is there, on average, but those on the very bottom rungs are experiencing it at an ever-decreasing rate.

People are being left behind.

Some of this we can help, 'tis true. But, I think that's a sort of different conversation than the one you originally started. Still, it's worthy of consideration in a broad sense and, in our own societies, we have to also make considerations for those who may be left behind any implementations we might consider.

Note: "The West" is still the general "Education Capital" of the World. It is where many people come to receive a quality education that can not be found in their country of origin. In some places, that is changing as these student-immigrants return home. But, it still holds true, for now.

[mrbadger]

I do have to say that while I was there I was teaching, but teaching the upper echelons of the society (for my university, for myself I would much rather have been out in those villages).

In the richer classes you do find well educated, well motivated people who either have no, or much reduced reason to take part in the corrupt economy, so don't, and therefore get a proper work ethic and decent education.

Those were great to teach. I just hated teaching them knowing that there were kids who'd never get the chance a few miles away that I was far more interested in reaching out to, in spite of all the problems.

Still, that was then, can't do that now anyway, that was pre disability, now I can't manage that.

[Stars_InTheirEyes]

I do think education needs a focus shift.
For example, I think its nice that kids learn about our national history and what not, but I don't think its at all practical. I would rather have been taught about something that would be more useful, such as the basics of employment rights.

[mrbadger]

It is possible to teach both things simultaneously.

Plus employments rights, just as math, have little use without context, and context requires history.

The best thing to teach, or instill, is a love of learning, then the rest of it takes care of itself.

Humans are smart, we can teach ourselves.

[Jericho]

This is UK based, don't know how it is in other countries.
13 years ago I was speaking to a few driving instructors who had been in the business for a long long time (a long story, that I won't go into).

They said that every year it got harder, and the current crop of people they were teaching were the worst yet. They needed AT LEAST double the amount of training as they did in previous years.

(They accepted that there was more to learn than there used to be, but even so they were saying that they just had no attention span, and seemed to get upset if they weren't congratulated for not crashing every 5 minutes).

And that was 13 years ago, I can't imagine things have improved.

[mrbadger]

I'm in the UK too, and it varies year on year, but I sometimes get students who feel they need to be rewarded just for figuring out how to operate a computer keyboard.

These are people to whom the arcane mysteries of the grep command are beyond the ken of mortals. Even plumbing the mysterious depths of 'ls' can take weeks.

Sadly I am talking from very real recent and painful experience.

I don't think it's a UK thing, I think it's a coddled youth thing, they spend so much time being told they are wonderful precious clever little darlings they don't ever get to stretch their brain boxes.

[pjknibbs]

Well, to be fair, grep and ls are things they're not likely to have come across before unless they've used Linux or Unix systems elsewhere, and how likely is that? Besides, if you really want to mess with their heads you should be getting them to rename files with the assistance of the "sed" command.

[mrbadger]

a little confusion with grep I can accept. five sessions of bafflement, and still being baffled after two lecturers trying to explain it (one of those twice) I can't.

After a certain point you just have to start wondering how it is they can work Facebook.

Yes, Facebook has ze pretty buttons, but how hard is a little typing? They do that too, all day long.

[brucewarren]

Could this be an example of human evolution in action mrbadger?

We seem to live in a world where knowledge and skill are heavily deprecated. The guy (or girl) who can actually do stuff would seem to have no place in this "post truth" society.

Someone with an education is pretty much cast in the role of Cassandra whereas the idiot who thinks the world is flat gets to be President.

[Morkonan]

Could this be an example of human evolution in action mrbadger?

We seem to live in a world where knowledge and skill are heavily deprecated. The guy (or girl) who can actually do stuff would seem to have no place in this "post truth" society.

Someone with an education is pretty much cast in the role of Cassandra whereas the idiot who thinks the world is flat gets to be President.

Relevant: SD: Uncertainty perception drives public's trust, mistrust of science

And then, people's natural risk-avoidance kicks and and, from two bajillion lines of uses, recommendations, interactions and some side-effect notes, they determine, with some catastrophic reasoning associated with drugs and poison:

Reye's syndrome / Delayed / 0-1.0

"ZOMGZ ASPRIN CAUSES REYE'S SYNDROME DON'T TAKE IT, IT'LL KILL ME!"

/sigh

However: Our current views on the ethical governance of humanity within a scheme that allows for representative self-governance, which is our best assurance for adequate personal liberty, the uninformed and ignorant must have equal representation. Even if they're bound to shoot themselves in the foot with it...