get we ever more ships to fly again

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

...you want to command capital ships not fly them at least not in the context of a space sim unless you intend to assume the role of navigator/helmsman/pilot in which case you'll be getting told where to fly not given a free reign to go where you like.

You're free to make up role paly rules for yourself as you go along if you like (such as being unable to take control despite being in charge of captains) but there are no such NPCs on capital ships yet or even a bridge implemented yet (unless you believe Egosoft truly imagine that capital NPCs should aways do their job on a landing plaform that only 1 ship in all of Rebirth actually uses) so everything is a blank canvass in future Rebirth.

[BigBANGtheory]

I believe Egosoft has by and large listened to players and will do the right thing in the long run. The more I look at XR the more it looks like harsh compromises rather than mistakes.

[Slashman]

I believe Egosoft has by and large listened to players and will do the right thing in the long run. The more I look at XR the more it looks like harsh compromises rather than mistakes.

That long run being a whole other game perhaps?

[BigBANGtheory]

I believe Egosoft has by and large listened to players and will do the right thing in the long run. The more I look at XR the more it looks like harsh compromises rather than mistakes.

That long run being a whole other game perhaps?

Perhaps, who knows... Probably more a X Rebrand and expansion just as Terran Conflict was to Reunion. I'm not opposed to paying for good quality though some of the necessary changes are not trivial by any means.

[Graaf]

Yes, we would all probably like to see more flyable ship options but that is about all we can really say.

We have a consensus then. From what I have seen almost everyone (moderators/staff/nay-sayers) would like to have more pilotable ships.

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[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Another member of the cast agrees. You can tell because he "looks like a bloody skunk!"

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[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

The consensus on the point though is moot because of the expected level of effort involved which some seem to be ignoring. Egosoft are not a charity and the multiple flyable ships was never a planned "free" feature of X-Rebirth, where the next game (or perhaps paid for DLC/Expansion) is concerned I believe it would be a different story.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

The consensus on the point though is moot because of the expected level of effort involved which some seem to be ignoring.

I've lost track of the number of times you have alluded to this Iin the past few days. Short of braking forum rules, it's unclear what kind of response you are hoping for.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I don't know how many threads we have discussed this matter in yet people seem to either forget or ignore Egosoft's earlier answer to it. Just because time has moved on does not change the simple fact that the work involved has been estimated as being too great to be expected for free.

Personally, I don't expect anything but it seems at least some people need to be reminded of the simple realities.

There are plenty of other things that people have asked for and Egosoft have indicated was feasible for a free update but the multiple player ship topic was not one of them.

[Nanook]

I don't know how many threads we have discussed this matter in yet people seem to either forget or ignore Egosoft's earlier answer to it. Just because time has moved on does not change the simple fact that the work involved has been estimated as being too great to be expected for free....

Which is totally irrelevant to the customers. You don't seem to get that. You also don't seem to get that if we keep asking and pressing for more ships, it's more likely that we'll get them because Egosoft sees a demand. Paying extra for it would likely be fine with most people, so any argument you make about time or money is itself irrelevant. And we really don't "need to be reminded of the simple realities" by you. They aren't 'simple realities' anyway. It's just your perception and opinion. Stop trying to make out like you have some sort of insider knowledge and let people discuss the topic. Good grief!

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Nanook: I believe you are wrong based on my own experience in the software industry. If a job is too costly to do for free it does not get done for free, nothing can change that. To put things in explicit terms, to do any given task takes a given group of people a certain amount of time and they are required to be paid for that time, if other tasks also need to be done in the available time then they will be done instead and the other task will never get done. Typically where planning is concerned, a task that on paper is expected to take more than a certain level of effort (say upwards of 3 calendar months - the exact period and measure will vary from company to company and possibly project to project) then it is automatically deferred to a paid for update and will never get done for free.

This is not about having nor requiring insider knowledge, we have been told once by Egosoft personnel that there is a lot more to doing it "properly" than some seem to think.

This is not about my personal preferences either, it is about being realistic and accepting things that are not changeable.

[Slashman]

I seem to recall several situations where developers have said the same about a particular aspect of a game and then somehow it gets implemented.

Sometimes we don't get the whole picture of exactly what is happening in the background and what we get told doesn't always mean it stays statically fixed that way forever.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Agreed that there are exceptions to the rule but that comes from changing circumstances with-in not pressure from outside a particular team/project. In this instance, unless Egosoft state otherwise we can only assume the status quo has not changed - i.e. to implement multiple player "flyable" ships involves too much work/risk to be promised as part of the free update process. At least that is what I have taken from Egosoft's comments on the topic to date.

[BigBANGtheory]

Sometimes we don't get the whole picture of exactly what is happening in the background and what we get told doesn't always mean it stays statically fixed that way forever.

There was a good article in Kotaku earlier this week which gives you some insight. Worth a read imho:

http://kotaku.com/five-things-i-didn-t- ... 1687510871

I think also what might be a good decision for a developer at any given time might impact the player(s) in a negative way. Other than constructing a mod what other way does the player have to influence such decisions if not expressing their PoV and gathering or gauging support?

Consider this for a second... All the people that bought XR hurled abuse and ranted about the game and of course those that didn't and just shelved it... where are they now? You need to talk to these people if they aren't expressing their PoV otherwise where is your market? Back to the X3 niche fanbase? Try to create something different? Sooner or later some commercial realities are going to bite.

Egosoft aren't going to please everyone they have some tough decisions to see though possibly already made. The risk of course is that they please no one or <not enough> this is why I suggested sometime ago a means to gather opinions from their customers on certain key issues. More flyable ships is probably one of those key issues.

[Nanook]

@Nanook: I believe you are wrong based on my own experience in the software industry. If a job is too costly to do for free it does not get done for free, nothing can change that....

And just where in my post did I say 'free'? I explicitly said I'd be willing to pay for it, and probably most others would, too. Please read my posts for content rather than just skimming them in the future.

This is not about my personal preferences either, it is about being realistic and accepting things that are not changeable.

And how is it not your personal opinion that things "are not changeable"? Please provide a direct quote from one of the devs that explicitly said that and I will concede the point. Otherwise, I do not accept that premise. And Egosoft's past history with making player-requested changes to their games also indicates otherwise.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we would still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course.

There have been hints at this perhaps being in the works with Bernd's cagey references a while back to experiments regarding an X4 class game but there are no hard facts to support what those experiments entailed nor an expected time to market for the result (assuming success). All supposition at this point.

I suspect Egosoft still have their hands full completing X-Rebirth and addressing the current feature/change/fix request list they have not completely ruled out from the free update list. Normally, once they have released their next game, support for the preceding title stops thus I doubt the product including multiple player ships is going to be announced for a while yet.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we could still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course.

There have been hints at this perhaps being in the works with Bernd's cagey ref erences a while back to experiments regarding an X4 class game but there are no hard facts to support what those experiments entailed nor an expected time to market for the result (assuming success). All supposition at this point.

I suspect Egosoft still have their hands full completing X-Rebirth and addressing the current feature/change/fix request list they have not completely ruled out from the free update list. Normally, once they have released their next game, support for the preceding title stops thus I doubt the product including multiple player ships is going to be announced for a while yet.

"BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships"

What does the general sense mean in this quote and who does it apply to?

Expressing a desire for multiple playable ships is not the same as arguing they should be free. I don't remember seeing any posts arguing for the latter recently.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Really? For example, the talk by some in this thread about making the change easier/cheaper seems to point at there still being some arguing the case (c/f skunk per capital comment).

In addition, the fact some seemingly objecting to my references to it only being done as a major paid for expansion or as part of the next instalment is another fair and reasonable indicator that there are still some die-hards trying to argue the case for it being delivered for free.

If we are going to get the multiple player pilotable ships feature, I am pretty sure it is not going to be delivered any time in the next 6 months (could be wrong but I suspect we will get at least 3 months official notice of it prior to release in any case) but when it is I have no doubt it will be delivered in a suitably comprehensive form (most likely without capital ship piloting though if I were to make any guesses).

[Nanook]

@Nanook: It is not a matter of multi-player ships not being possible it is a case of it being ruled out as being deliverable for free - that is the bit I was referring to as being "unchangeable".

BTW it is not all about you and what your viewpoint. The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for a "free" update for multiple player ships, whether the feature is delivered as a paid for expansion or as part of the next X-Rebirth game is a bit moot we would still have to wait for Egosoft to productise it and "formally" announce said product, I have no doubts it will come in due course....

When you quote or refer to my posts, it IS about my viewpoint.

"The general sense is that there are still some that are trying to argue for .... "

What general sense? Yours? And who are the "some"? I can't say as I've read that anywhere in this whole thread. Rather than made-up stuff, how about some cold, hard facts? This is one of the most masterful obfuscations I've seen in quite some time.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Really? For example, the talk by some in this thread about making the change easier/cheaper seems to point at there still being some arguing the case (c/f skunk per capital comment).

As I have said, I don't remember seeing any posts arguing for a free update for multiple playable ships. Which posts do you mean?

What does "the general sense" mean in the above quote and who does it apply to?

In addition, the fact some seemingly objecting to my references to it only being done as a major paid for expansion or as part of the next instalment is another fair and reasonable indicator that there are still some die-hards trying to argue the case for it being delivered for free.

Without quotes/evidence to the contrary, a simpler explanation would be since many posters have been here for a long time, they may simply be objecting to you repeatedly bringing it up.