get we ever more ships to fly again

[Slashman]

@ Slashman: Unless you have insider knowledge (I certainly don't), you can't say that. We do not know the exact details of the technical or manpower issues they had that led them to make the single player ship restriction necessary, but based on what was delivered and the progress to date it seems obvious to me that they made the right choice (from a technical observer viewpoint).

Well I don't know. It seems to me to be awfully convenient for some people to point out that they are amazed that Egosoft can deliver this kind of game at all with the size of their team and everyone should be grateful that things aren't more broken than they are and that further gratitude is warranted that they spend years finishing their broken and buggy releases.

Unless it is their intention to keep going through this mess every release, logic would dictate that they do something differently. Logic should have dictated that long ago.

Being the 'little guy' shouldn't exempt you from harsh criticism any more than being a 'big guy' should earn you a harsher penalty from making mistakes in the first place. Especially when the same mistakes are repeated over and over.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Cry 'water under the bridge' all you want wrt to ridiculous launch, but that gives customers a huge penalty in time and satisfaction when they have to wait for a game to get fixed to launch status so that then, more than a year later, they can start to get the kind of things they wanted to out of the game.

It all ties together and creates a poor user experience. A huge swath of time wasted waiting for a game to reach 'playable state' so that it can then begin to MAYBE receive those critical quality of life updates that people wanted along with maybe them starting to look at adding extra features and expansions.

You're absolutely right in that I don't know what the situation in the studio is wrt to their lack of manpower or project management. As a customer/potential customer, it shouldn't be my concern. The fact that they keep repeating this unacceptable pattern is. The fact that someone would keep praising them for doing so is mind-boggling.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@ Slashman: No-one is praising them for doing what they have done per se, but they do deserve credit where credit is due. There is difference between complementing them for the things they have done right and saying they have done everything right - I do not believe anyone thinks the latter.

I could go on all year about what I personally think about the general status quo of the state (and apparent trends) of software quality from the industry in general. Please don't get me on that particular soap box as it changes nothing in my experience and would take us very off topic. Suffice to say the overall industry is guilty IMO

But this is not really directly related to the matter at hand...

[Slashman]

@ Slashman: No-one is praising them for doing what they have done per se, but they do deserve credit where credit is due. There is difference between complementing them for the things they have done right and saying they have done everything right - I do not believe anyone thinks the latter.

I agree that there is a difference, but there is way too much of a tendency for the de facto defense for every wrong to be:

They support their games longer than anyone else.

They do amazing things with such a small team.

It's only been x time since the game launched, give them time to get a, b and c in the game. (Most of the time without even knowing what, exactly, is coming.)

None of those statements are simple or straightforward facts, and none of them is any excuse for the other bad/wrong things in their games. This is all compounded by their exceptionally poor community communication skills and interaction. Showing us how art assets get made is all fine and good, but answers none of the hard questions that need to be nailed down about where things are headed. Al that talk of engaging the community to determine where to go and what to focus on was apparently just hot air.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that they made several innovations in terms of how some things are done in Rebirth. The engine is graphically impressive and the size and scale of things like stations is great. But there is still a ton of things that need attention and it has been well over a year since launch.

I could go on all year about what I personally think about the general status quo of the state (and apparent trends) of software quality from the industry in general. Please don't get me on that particular soap box as it changes nothing in my experience and would take us very off topic. Suffice to say the overall industry is guilty IMO

But this is not really directly related to the matter at hand...

I'd probably agree with a lot of it, but fine, we won't go into that right now.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I agree that there is a difference, but there is way too much of a tendency for the de facto defense for every wrong to be:

They support their games longer than anyone else.

They do amazing things with such a small team.

It's only been x time since the game launched, give them time to get a, b and c in the game. (Most of the time without even knowing what, exactly, is coming.)

All of which need to be considered in the context of the relevant discussion.

None of which are excusing them, but the first two point out that they at least stand out from the crowd by making more of an effort to resolve issues than a lot of developers.

The last one is a matter of recognising and acknowledging that (a) the game was released in a particular state and (b) it takes more time to change said state than some seem to think and believe me when I say that in a small team typically the more frequently you make substantial reports on something the longer it takes to do that something.

None of those statements are simple or straightforward facts, and none of them is any excuse for the other bad/wrong things in their games. This is all compounded by their exceptionally poor community communication skills and interaction. Showing us how art assets get made is all fine and good, but answers none of the hard questions that need to be nailed down about where things are headed. Al that talk of engaging the community to determine where to go and what to focus on was apparently just hot air.

Personally I would not blame them for never engaging the community ever again based on some things I have read in these forums, but thankfully a lot of that venom seems to have gone.

Yes, Egosoft are not good communicators but they are making an effort to change. A bad communicating organisation does not become a good one over night and they have to be careful what they report on for their benefit and ours. No point in providing misleading information.

As for actually engaging the community, they have been however little it may be. The problem is there is no consensus in the community on what is and what is not important and you only need to read half the discussion threads to get that perception.

I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge that they made several innovations in terms of how some things are done in Rebirth. The engine is graphically impressive and the size and scale of things like stations is great. But there is still a ton of things that need attention and it has been well over a year since launch.

This is generally irrelevant to this specific topic though, Egosoft have never promised to implement multiple flyable ships for X-Rebirth only to investigate the possibility if there was enough desire for it post release. This they have done and reported back that it would be too much work for a free patch/update basically.

[pref]

Personally I would not blame them for never engaging the community ever again based on some things I have read in these forums, but thankfully a lot of that venom seems to have gone.

The easiest way to handle that is to face the anger, and give some hint at least about how they are going to solve the issues.

On the other hand it just makes their lives worse, conversing only with the select few who is fine with the game as it is (or already was a couple of versions ago). They only get prefiltered feedback now, and that makes it harder to win back the rest of the players.

The only thing they were clear about was probably this very issue (not having multible flyables). Settles OP's question imo.

[BigBANGtheory]

The only thing they were clear about was probably this very issue (not having multible flyables). Settles OP's question imo.

They were clear about what was in the game, I think what took everyone by surprise was what was not in the game. The repetition of internal station designs was nothing short of a disaster for what otherwise was perceived as a cool addition.

I remember going back to 2013 when it emerged about the single player ship prior to release... I warned Egosoft that they were on risky ground and that such a restriction would only ever work if the upgrade options were significant. Maybe they couldn't do it and were committed to other tasks, but they were warned the community had quite a heated discussion about it.

More flyable ships is 1 of the top 3 main pain points that hasn't really been addressed even in dialog or intention. Personally its not a major thing for me (we should all know what that is by now ) but I do recognise its importance and popularity from other players old and new.

What we would all like imho is some direction on "the top 3 major issues" not the "well we'd like to support other platforms" or "here is some expansion to the current system". Opening the UI to modding is probably the 1st major change since release, community asked for it, community has got it. Yes things are improving, we still need to talk about other big topics though, the awkward tricky ones that can't be glossed over.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Let's not forget that ability to fly any ship was not worked on, because it would require too much time to make it properly (instead of the X3-like flying cameras without cockpits or anything).

[Nanook]

All right, let's get back to the topic, shall we? Those that want to discuss the general state of the game and Egosoft, please take it to another thread. Otherwise, you'll be forcing me to do a lot of splitting and locking, something I really don't like to do. So please, have a little compassion for an overworked and nonpaid moderator. This is directed at a couple of posters, and you know who you are.

[Nanook]

Let's not forget that ability to fly any ship was not worked on, because it would require too much time to make it properly (instead of the X3-like flying cameras without cockpits or anything).

So you're saying that the time was better spent on making NPC models and station interiors than it would've been on making a dozen or two different cockpits for the various ship types in the game? They delayed the game for a year just to add walking around in stations, time that could've gone into making more flyable ships. Personally, I would've rather had them work on space things for their space game, rather than a bunch of ugly humans and bland station interiors.

[Graaf]

Let's not forget that ability to fly any ship was not worked on, because it would require too much time to make it properly (instead of the X3-like flying cameras without cockpits or anything).

So you're saying that the time was better spent on making NPC models and station interiors than it would've been on making a dozen or two different cockpits for the various ship types in the game? They delayed the game for a year just to add walking around in stations, time that could've gone into making more flyable ships. Personally, I would've rather had them work on space things for their space game, rather than a bunch of ugly humans and bland station interiors.

Just to be clear: I did not make Nanook say this. And the delay was 2 years.

[Nanook]

I was assuming that they were working on other things, too, during those two years.

[Slashman]

All of which need to be considered in the context of the relevant discussion.

None of which are excusing them, but the first two point out that they at least stand out from the crowd by making more of an effort to resolve issues than a lot of developers.

The last one is a matter of recognising and acknowledging that (a) the game was released in a particular state and (b) it takes more time to change said state than some seem to think and believe me when I say that in a small team typically the more frequently you make substantial reports on something the longer it takes to do that something.

And yet there are many small companies who are proving all this false right now.

In the first place, if you make and release a solid game, you should not HAVE to support it for 5 or more years down the road. If your game is stable, has solid mechanics and gameplay when you launch, you do not need to spend years fixing it or having to change core parts of it. Anything you do from there on out would lie in the realm of add-ons and expansions.

In the second place, if you know your limitations within common sense for the size team that you have, you will not attempt something that is almost impossible to pull off for your team, or you ensure that you have the necessary manpower to do the project right.

I've already explained why launching a game in the state that Rebirth launched in, does a huge disservice to all customers and affects the growth of the game going forward.

Personally I would not blame them for never engaging the community ever again based on some things I have read in these forums, but thankfully a lot of that venom seems to have gone.

That is exactly the kind of thinking that pushes their own community away and leads them to make uninformed and sometimes downright ludicrous design decisions. They are a development studio, not a bunch of petulant children. If they receive unduly harsh criticism, then it is up to them to answer it by presenting the facts of the situation in a such a way that it clears up the issue and limits any more venom because the person spitting the venom now has to argue against actual facts. I've seen som many examples f companies consisting of 3, 5 10 and 15 person teams doing this and doing it consistently well, that I am not going to accept the "poor communicator" excuse. There is no excuse for poor communication when you are making something that you say you want to be supported by the community

Yes, Egosoft are not good communicators but they are making an effort to change. A bad communicating organisation does not become a good one over night and they have to be careful what they report on for their benefit and ours. No point in providing misleading information.

I'm still waiting for evidence of this effort to change you keep talking about. I still haven't seen jack squat to indicate that it is anything but a vague notion. At this point in time, they should have their house in order. What misleading information would be presented by giving a list of things they are actively pursuing? Again, small indie companies are doing this all over the Steam boards. I'm not seeing any wealth of misleading information coming out of it.

As for actually engaging the community, they have been however little it may be. The problem is there is no consensus in the community on what is and what is not important and you only need to read half the discussion threads to get that perception.

This is an extremely poor excuse. You use surveys, you select people who demonstrate in-depth knowledge of the game(like modders). You start discussions with very focused topics and ensure that the guidelines are adhered to. If a 5-man company can engage the community, why in the hell can't a company of 20 - 25 employees make a solid effort?

This is generally irrelevant to this specific topic though, Egosoft have never promised to implement multiple flyable ships for X-Rebirth only to investigate the possibility if there was enough desire for it post release. This they have done and reported back that it would be too much work for a free patch/update basically.

And yet the ship and system that they have chosen in its place, is unable to fulfill the desires of many players because of the shallow and limited upgrade system. So we have a double strike out. The only people winning, being those that don't really care about the single ship experience at all. They have no reason to complain.

[Nanook]

Slashman, what did I just say about staying on topic and taking general rants to another thread? That goes for both you and Roger, and anyone else who chimes in. This thread is about playerships, so let's keep it that way. Last warning.

[Night Nord]

Nanook, do you understand that the answer to the question at hand taking the forum's branch name is going to be "No" or "Most probably not"? And then there is no more discussion.

Answering the question "Why?' is clearly beyond the topic and lies somewhere in a holy wars land.

95% that there will be no more playerships in X:R or any future addon, as it seems that this particular feature is kinda low-priority for EgoSoft for whatever reasons. With any luck you'll probably get more playable ships in a future game. Just deal with it.

[Slashman]

Slashman, what did I just say about staying on topic and taking general rants to another thread? That goes for both you and Roger, and anyone else who chimes in. This thread is about playerships, so let's keep it that way. Last warning.

Apologies Nanook. I actually didn't see your post until after I had posted.

[Graaf]

Egosoft have never promised to implement multiple flyable ships for X-Rebirth only to investigate the possibility if there was enough desire for it post release. This they have done and reported back that it would be too much work for a free patch/update basically.

I didn't know there was a questionnaire about it. Must have missed that.
The only think I saw was

unlikely

and

depend on balancing up the costs of doing so (both in terms of producing things like cockpits, and also the opportunity costs of other features that might have to be put aside in order to achieve that) against its relative importance to the player base as a whole

Taking the "cost of cockpit production", I remember an artist say that they have a lot of free time they spend mostly on designing additional ships. Which in my point of view is a useless exercise if I can't fly said ships.
On a side note, while there is someone very keen on getting the Canterran Miner, he also is trying to kill the multiple player ship discussions by saying he doesn't want to have a abundant choice in barely different ships, making him want an additional miner odd.

The problem is there is no consensus in the community on what is and what is not important

The single ship limitation was the most debated issue before launch, and, as this thread proves, it is still an issue. Yet there are always the same few debating it isn't needed/necessary/promised.
Yet every time there is a thread about commanding your assets, those same few are all over the place to demand better controls for something that is working, but maybe not optimal. You don't see me disturb that thread because I don't agree with them. It just isn't high on my priority list.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Let's not forget that ability to fly any ship was not worked on, because it would require too much time to make it properly (instead of the X3-like flying cameras without cockpits or anything).

So you're saying that the time was better spent on making NPC models and station interiors than it would've been on making a dozen or two different cockpits for the various ship types in the game? They delayed the game for a year just to add walking around in stations, time that could've gone into making more flyable ships. Personally, I would've rather had them work on space things for their space game, rather than a bunch of ugly humans and bland station interiors.

I don't know, that's what I heard. It was shortly before launch. And I heard it from someone from the moderators, if I remember right.

I also really disliked that they were adding interiors and walking, but now that the game is released, I really like it.
Just, the interiors could be a bit less laggy. Remove meaningless rooms (why is there a bar in almost every type of interior? remove it, save some performance. Only keep neccessary rooms and corridors between them).

[Assailer]

I would imagine flying a cap. trading ship and docking would be very difficult, not to mention boring to wait for those cargo drones.

Destroyers would need positioning, and a whole new (different) way to mark targets for the many guns/missiles. This could be OK though for some (not me).

They all would need new cockpits...

What would be an improvement is having a Skunk-like ship available for each capital ship (could be made available through an upgrade process) which you could fly as capital ship's captain (or another hired pilot). It would be an instance of Skunk, having it's own upgrades etc. Then, player could fly this ship through a single map click and be there for some immediate action to sort out invaders. When this Skunk dies, it will need to be replaced and new captain/pilot for that cap ship. When finished with current action, the player enters his/her own Skunk and pilot automatically docks back to capital ship

This would be doable without rewriting everything.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Graaf: I read the comment about the work involved in doing it from Egosoft as a definite ruling out of it happening for free regardless of the popularity of the idea.

As for the consensus, even on the multiple player flyable ship question I think there is no real consensus on the level of priority. Yes, we would all probably like to see more flyable ship options but that is about all we can really say. Either way, it is probably a moot discussion point wrt this iteration.

@Assailer: That would feel more like a hack to me, besides which the multiple flyable ships question is not just about flying different configurations of the Skunk nor is it about flying capital craft per se. Might be ok for a mod, but would not want to see it in vanilla.

The latter has been generally whole sale ruled out by Egosoft AFAIK.

[BigBANGtheory]

I don't think you'll be able to fly a capital class ship ever again in X Universe, it was deliberately removed and designed out in much the same way SETA was. Good riddance to it I say you want to command capital ships not fly them at least not in the context of a space sim unless you intend to assume the role of navigator/helmsman/pilot in which case you'll be getting told where to fly not given a free reign to go where you like.

Smaller ships though like scouts, fighters, bombers, corvettes and a like could work though possibly all the way to frigate class.

imho Egosoft should work on the mechanics of allowing the player to switch ships with perhaps one other ship, bundle it up as DLC then allow the mod community to churn out other ships over time. Otherwise you risk tying up the art and 3d modelling teams for the next 2yrs for relatively small gains in gameplay.