Finally Someone with balls...

[rwwright]

There is also the possibility that if a lawsuit goes forward in the EU there will cease to be a company called Egosoft, or at least one which is capable of producing new products or fixing existing bugs. This would not make other companies do better product verification, if like Egosoft, they do not have the resources to do extensive verification. Given the types of bugs I have seen here it appears that not even those who were coding the plot game actually played it. I would like for the bugs to be fixed. A lot of work went into the wireframe and texturing design as well as the new interface. It would be a shame to see that effort wasted. The potential is there, patience is not.

[tuareg]

Software companies pull shit like this because there's no legal comeback at the moment.

Actually there is, at least in UK law - "Fit for purpose", but the problem is with software is it is a special case that can be fixed/amended after delivery which is permitted under current law but you have to allow them reasonable time to resolve the issues.

Performance and crashes of the nature we are getting though probably do not count under the "fit for purpose" clause.

actually u are wrong about the uk: article

Actually, it just verifies what I said - the satisfactory part is subjective - and it could be argued that as of the latest patches many of the issues have been (or are in the process of being) addressed - also by accepting the patches and trying them out it can be reasonably argued that you are effectively agreeing to being supplied with a fix/replacement.

I don't know where did you read that, for me this means completely the opposite: "If the consumer wishes, they can also request a repair or replacement, but they don't have to accept this if they do not want to."

I am also led to believe that there is a time limit to claims on the basis of being sold not-fit-for-purpose.

only in the case of personal issue. but as X:R has global issues (i think 94% stopped playing due to bugs and crashes is global enough). as you can see from the article that was the same situation... in this case hardly there is any time limit.

The point being if you want a refund you need to start the process ASAP and cease to use the product immediately at the point the process starts. If this has not been done, then technically you are on sketchy legal grounds. In addition, there is the point "or a problem with the consumer's computer" which becomes subjective if you do not meet the exact published system requirements.

yes, but again, it's just in case of one person's problem. If the software crashes on near every higher spec system (like XR) the game is absolutely unfit for purpose. i dont think you could win this alone against any publisher, you are right with that, but if its proven wrong for everybody then everybody is entitled to get refund for that actual SW...

[Pharoah]

Software companies pull shit like this because there's no legal comeback at the moment.

Actually there is, at least in UK law - "Fit for purpose", but the problem is with software is it is a special case that can be fixed/amended after delivery which is permitted under current law but you have to allow them reasonable time to resolve the issues.

Performance and crashes of the nature we are getting though probably do not count under the "fit for purpose" clause.

actually u are wrong about the uk: article

Actually, it just verifies what I said - the satisfactory part is subjective - and it could be argued that as of the latest patches many of the issues have been (or are in the process of being) addressed - also by accepting the patches and trying them out it can be reasonably argued that you are effectively agreeing to being supplied with a fix/replacement.

I am also led to believe that there is a time limit to claims on the basis of being sold not-fit-for-purpose.

The point being if you want a refund you need to start the process ASAP and cease to use the product immediately at the point the process starts. If this has not been done, then technically you are on sketchy legal grounds.

In addition, there is the point "or a problem with the consumer's computer" which becomes subjective if you do not meet the exact published system requirements.

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

[Nosscar]

I read this in STEAM Forums since i use steam for most of my games(also bought X-rebirth there)...Someone is trying to get a refund via court for X-Rebirth...Here is the actuall link

http://steamcommunity.com/app/2870/disc ... 199883251/

I wish him the best of luck!

Souvenir 1977
Soubenir

Seems so similar to me.

Yeh, probably is the same, lol. I personally can't see anyone wasting there time, I have bought lousy games before, you just forget it and move on. Like if rebirth doesn't improve, Elite D is out in a few months hopefully, I am already looking at that.

[deu58]

There is also the possibility that if a lawsuit goes forward in the EU there will cease to be a company called Egosoft, or at least one which is capable of producing new products or fixing existing bugs. This would not make other companies do better product verification, if like Egosoft, they do not have the resources to do extensive verification. Given the types of bugs I have seen here it appears that not even those who were coding the plot game actually played it. I would like for the bugs to be fixed. A lot of work went into the wireframe and texturing design as well as the new interface. It would be a shame to see that effort wasted. The potential is there, patience is not.

Agreed. I think the back lash Ego has received from this release is enough to give them pause on trying anything like that again. The company reputation has suffered grievously and any more beating on them is really counter productive.
Give them the chance to correct their mistake which they have been aggressively trying to do and lets move on and make more games.

[werewolves?]

It's probably just some kid talking out his ass on the forums.

[tuareg]

It's probably just some kid talking out his ass on the forums.

maybe, maybe not, i was thinking of turning to the trading standards, however i didnt exactly just to save egosoft from a legal problem, however i think they would deserve it. sadly it would hit the players really hard not them... (egosoft is an Ltd. :/ and the laws are very forgiving with those)

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

...

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

Both actually, the fact of the matter is that the law is a tad fluid and open to interpretation. Personally, I have found the Consumer Protection Laws to be a toothless tiger in the main except where severe breaches of consumer rights are concerned. Buggy software unfortunately does not fall under that umbrella - especially with PC software. Console based software is a bit more cut and dry since the hardware and operating environment is pretty much well defined and fixed.

[Defektiv]

Wouldn't it makes sense to post something like this on the Star Citizen forums? Unless intentionally trying to stir a pot in their own head, its like walking into a bar and announcing to everyone how someone is suing a beer company for them getting a DUI. Some people get ideas in their heads that really should just stay in their heads. A little thinking before speaking goes a long way in avoiding saying something stupid or irrelevant.

[Santi]

...

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

Both actually, the fact of the matter is that the law is a tad fluid and open to interpretation. Personally, I have found the Consumer Protection Laws to be a toothless tiger in the main except where severe breaches of consumer rights are concerned. Buggy software unfortunately does not fall under that umbrella - especially with PC software. Console based software is a bit more cut and dry since the hardware and operating environment is pretty much well defined and fixed.

If you guys want to go down this route fair enough:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... oducts.pdf

[tuareg]

...

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

Both actually, the fact of the matter is that the law is a tad fluid and open to interpretation. Personally, I have found the Consumer Protection Laws to be a toothless tiger in the main except where severe breaches of consumer rights are concerned. Buggy software unfortunately does not fall under that umbrella - especially with PC software. Console based software is a bit more cut and dry since the hardware and operating environment is pretty much well defined and fixed.

If you guys want to go down this route fair enough:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... oducts.pdf

"A research report prepared for the UK Department
for Business, Innovation and Skills"

this is not a living version just a plan. what trading standards say is pretty much the law. at least in the uk (however the final decision is for the court, i think going against TS is quite suicide)

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

The point being if you want a refund you need to start the process ASAP and cease to use the product immediately at the point the process starts. If this has not been done, then technically you are on sketchy legal grounds. In addition, there is the point "or a problem with the consumer's computer" which becomes subjective if you do not meet the exact published system requirements.

yes, but again, it's just in case of one person's problem. If the software crashes on near every higher spec system (like XR) the game is absolutely unfit for purpose. i dont think you could win this alone against any publisher, you are right with that, but if its proven wrong for everybody then everybody is entitled to get refund for that actual SW...

As of the latest patch (and probably earlier), the crashes are not as common nor repeatable. Different people have encountered different issues during Beta testing of v1.22 for instance.

The only apparently common issue is poor frame rates but assessment of such things is subjective. In the interactive training and simulation arena (where frame rates can often be considered king), 15fps is the nominal minimum where as 30fps is typically the target (sometimes considered the minimum) and anything above 60fps is generally considered a stretch goal. On this basis, X-Rebirth could be legitimately argued as being with-in tolerances for 3D performance on most systems.

The main concern is that some lower spec systems have actually been known to exhibit better performance but the issues are under investigation by Egosoft.

The variable nature of the performance aspects depending on the hardware it is run on essentially places it in "the user's computer's fault" category. The PS3 case put forward as an equivalent case can not claim such latitude - it either performs well on a PS3 or it does not.

[Santi]

...

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

Both actually, the fact of the matter is that the law is a tad fluid and open to interpretation. Personally, I have found the Consumer Protection Laws to be a toothless tiger in the main except where severe breaches of consumer rights are concerned. Buggy software unfortunately does not fall under that umbrella - especially with PC software. Console based software is a bit more cut and dry since the hardware and operating environment is pretty much well defined and fixed.

If you guys want to go down this route fair enough:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... oducts.pdf

"A research report prepared for the UK Department
for Business, Innovation and Skills"

"It is an independent, academic study, and the views, opinions and policy preferences expressed herein do not necessarily represent the views of the Department and should not be taken as indicative of government policy."

" This report is concerned with consumer rights in "digital products", by which is meant data or information products supplied in digital format as a stream of zeros and ones so as to be readable by a computer and give instructions to the computer, such as computer software, video DVDs music on CD and so on. We live in a digital age. The computer is ubiquitous. Entertainment comes in digital packages, in the form of CDs, DVDs, computer games and, increasingly, downloads from the Internet. According to industry figures, the UK games industry was worth £2 billion in 2006 and 32 % of the UK population now consider themselves "gamers". Digital downloads now make up 12.5% of UK album sales and 95% of singles sales. And yet, notwithstanding the growing importance of the digital economy, and digital products within it, the law's response remains uncertain. In particular, it is unclear how digital products should be categorized and, in consequence, it is unclear whether consumers who buy digital products enjoy the same legal protection as when they purchase physical, analogue products. In 2009 the UK government committed itself to a high level of consumer protection in relation to digital products, undertaking to ensure that "the core principles of consumer law" apply to sales of digital products.

HOW THE CURRENT LEGAL POSITION MEASURES UP AGAINST
THE IDEAL FOR CONSUMER PROTECTION LAWS

[ external image ]

[dzhedzho]

This stuff again...
Let me tell you how this usually works.
You go to small claims in your country. After a conversation from the type "have you done everything possible" you file some papers. At some point an unknown clerk will look at the sum, and spend around 5 minutes to decide the case. For sums like 50 euro, most likely they simply stamp the pile...
After which, usually a company has the choice to pay, or appeal.

If they do, the biggest thing which can happen is for things to go to arbitration. If that happens steam will actually cover your costs up to 10k (imagine that). Now what do you think the chances are that steam will decide to make fuss about this.

No need for drama, this is nowhere near the first claim against Steam. If anyone thinks they have valid claim, they should go and lodge it, most claims are decided without ever seeing a courtroom, and that is by design...

[tuareg]

This stuff again...
Let me tell you how this usually works.
You go to small claims in your country. After a conversation from the type "have you done everything possible" you file some papers. At some point an unknown clerk will look at the sum, and spend around 5 minutes to decide the case. For sums like 50 euro, most likely they simply stamp the pile...
After which, usually a company has the choice to pay, or appeal.

If they do, the biggest thing which can happen is for things to go to arbitration. If that happens steam will actually cover your costs up to 10k (imagine that). Now what do you think the chances are that steam will decide to make fuss about this.

No need for drama, this is nowhere near the first claim against Steam. If anyone thinks they have valid claim, they should go and lodge it, most claims are decided without ever seeing a courtroom, and that is by design...

yes thats true in case if you just walk on the lonely ppl's way but it isn't if TS pick the case. just check their side... they seized companies in the UK for less

[dzhedzho]

Yes I know. You can make a "small claim", and the CP can easily give pretty big fines to companies, if they don't comply. Though except for the 7 day (2 week or whatever is in your country) "consumer remorse" for unused product, or complete "it doesn't work on my machine" you don't really have a claim with entertainment software. (except for subscriptions, which have to refund you the remaining time, in case they stop the service)

[AdamPHole]

Don't the Greek have more important things to worry about right now than the 50 bucks some guy spent on a video game? I thought they were having serious economic troubles. Actually, now that I think about it, it makes sense...

I think they can worry about the economy and about these sort of things as well.

[BigBANGtheory]

...

So... Which is it? Time limit to claims? or we have to allow a certain amount of time for them to patch it to functional state...

what you're saying contradicts itself timeline wise, how are we supposed to claim as early as possible if we have to allow an amount of time for patching?

STUPID LOGIC AT BEST HERE FOLKS.

Both actually, the fact of the matter is that the law is a tad fluid and open to interpretation. Personally, I have found the Consumer Protection Laws to be a toothless tiger in the main except where severe breaches of consumer rights are concerned. Buggy software unfortunately does not fall under that umbrella - especially with PC software. Console based software is a bit more cut and dry since the hardware and operating environment is pretty much well defined and fixed.

There is no time limit for UK law in this regard, and consumer law does apply to software if it fails to perform as advertised is you purchased a retail box.

As a consumer only you can decide what to do.

Personally I'll give Egosoft a chance to put it right, I honestly think they ran out of time.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Well in the case of X-Rebirth, I believe it performs as per the explicit description in the Steam shop (depends on how you read it but I do not believe it falls foul of the TDA). Can't speak for the boxed versions.

Egosoft do not make any declarations about expected frame rates so complaining on performance grounds is quite tenuous.

As for time limits, there has to be a case wrt time of use of the software in order to avoid fraudulent claims. For instance, someone buys a game and completes the plot then complains to TS that the game is not fit for purpose and/or does not meet the description - in that case I think the individual should have their head examined. There is a definite case for exhibiting common sense in such claims which is not covered by the letter of the law. It would be a bit like someone buying a book, reading it from cover to cover and then demanding a refund from the book store because they did not like it.

[huex]

well i think it is a troll thread. ( in the steam forum )