For whole "target audience" and mr. L Bernd

xleto2 · Post by **xleto2** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 18:39

Surely nobody here cares about reviews. The only thing even more foolish than buying a game with such reviews, when you care about them, is pre-ordering games...

rpek32 · Post by **rpek32** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 18:56

xleto2 wrote:Surely nobody here cares about reviews. The only thing even more foolish than buying a game with such reviews, when you care about them, is pre-ordering games...

I agreed (so i care) with reviews

about pre-ordering, you are right, but who knows that egosoft release alpha-version instead of full version.

steelgrey75 · Post by **steelgrey75** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:00

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote: Unlike with other retail environments a recall order on software is practically unheard of (I am sure there are a few cases of it happening but it is extremely rare in the main) since post-release patches/updates is considered the norm for addressing problems.

Google Ashes Cricket 2013. It was withdrawn from sale and customers all refunded plus a public apology made by the publisher, there was no word from the devs who must have crawled under a rock.

This is a quote from of the news articles about it ;

"The game had already been delayed by several months, and will now be abandoned entirely.

One games journalist said it was "clearly unfinished" and "didn't even have an animation for catching"."

dzhedzho · Post by **dzhedzho** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:10

rpek32 wrote:
xleto2 wrote:Surely nobody here cares about reviews. The only thing even more foolish than buying a game with such reviews, when you care about them, is pre-ordering games...
I agreed (so i care) with reviews
about pre-ordering, you are right, but who knows that egosoft release alpha-version instead of full version.

Live and learn

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:14

steelgrey75 wrote:...

I did not say it never happened, I said it was extremely rare. I am actually not surprised about that particular game getting canned for various reasons, but although it sounds like a similar case to X-Rebirth (the obvious reason you brought it up) - the cases are somewhat different if you ask me.

It was a blatant console targeted game (despite the past accusations Egosoft have long said X-Rebirth is a genuine PC game) with the associated consequences and having played a bit with Unity myself, I would not be surprised if they had some major challenges with that type of game. Trickstar also probably had a lot less vested in it than Egosoft appear to with X-Rebirth either emotionally or financially.

jerryt87 · Post by **jerryt87** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:27

Sadly, this pretty much sums it up.

"Instead, we have a game that will devastate the fan-base, repel anyone new to the series and enrage anybody who pre-ordered it. I didn’t think anything would be able to top SimCity and Total War: Rome II’s abysmal launches, but somehow, someway, Egosoft has managed it with X Rebirth."

Arraamis · Post by **Arraamis** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:32

xleto2 wrote:Surely nobody here cares about reviews. The only thing even more foolish than buying a game with such reviews, when you care about them, is pre-ordering games...

Absolutely right ... X:R was the first game I've ever pre-ordered, ever!!!

Little did I know that Egosoft had in its mind to royally screw its fan-base for a quick bucket of cash and then politely ask them to beta-test fixes for a game they already paid for ....

It would seem that Egosoft has such little regard for its fans, that they repeatedly mock, use and mentally abuse them. And to make matter worst, it would seem that some gamers like being used and abused and being taken advantgage of -- Since many will fight tooth and nail to defend Egosoft's totally shameful behavior....

The days of quality game oriented developers\publishers seem to have passed with time. Microprose, Interplay, Infogrames and a few others. have moved on and what we have remaining are scam-artists with a bag full of videos, posters and unfinished, content-less code that couldn't have passed as legitimate in the presence of those that have gone before.

Totally shameful and some so-called fans actually like it

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:33

jerryt87 wrote:Sadly, this pretty much sums it up.

"Instead, we have a game that will devastate the fan-base, repel anyone new to the series and enrage anybody who pre-ordered it."

Overly generalised, as I think there are many that do not feel that way... myself among them... although I do feel a little let down by Egosoft's apparently poor QA plan for the release.

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:34

Arraamis wrote:Totally shameful and some so-called fans actually like it

If everyone was the same life would be boring.

rpek32 · Post by **rpek32** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 19:44

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote: But I suspect I am wasting my time in this thread.

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:If everyone was the same life would be boring.

you so weird person

and you dont know how to use "Edit button"

Arraamis wrote: y ask them to beta-test fixes for a game they already paid for ....

So... just do not participate in beta testing (like me, as example). Internet filled with persons who want work for free, let them do their (free) job

Arraamis · Post by **Arraamis** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 20:24

rpek32 wrote:
Arraamis wrote: y ask them to beta-test fixes for a game they already paid for ....
So... just do not participate in beta testing (like me, as example). Internet filled with persons who want work for free, let them do their (free) job

I don't and won't participate in beta testing for software that was paid for. I would have to be a person of questionable mental status to pay full price for software that I'm also being asked to beta-test for free.

That's not how its supposed to work!!!!!!

Either I get paid to beta-test for Egosoft or receive a discount on the software purchase. Better yet, why don't egosoft just release software to the general public that isn't half-azzed complete and hasn't been tested at all -- That would be a great place to start.

And this also, goes to the root of the problem with some people, they are sooooo desperate to have a certain game that they're willing to ignore all logic in order to get it. (In this case, get it working)

Next time you buy a computer from dell -- why don't you just fly\drive to the factory and put the damn thing together and box\ship it as well.

kurush · Post by **kurush** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 20:32

Arraamis wrote: And this also, goes to the root of the problem with some people, they are sooooo desperate to have a certain game that they're willing to ignore all logic in order to get it. (In this case, get it working)

I have to admit I was fairly desperate to get an Elite sequel, so I went to kickstarter and have no regret so far. The difference here is that in my case nobody tried to cheat me into beta-testing the game that doesn't even have the features I would be looking for.

dcarver · Post by **dcarver** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 20:38

I paid for a kick-starter project without realizing it.

A pre-order beta is what they should have done

deu58 · Post by **deu58** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 20:40

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:True, but the public announcement was plain as day. Ok, perhaps the shops should have considered taking it off their shelves but IME retailers will typically try and sell anything they can to make money (especially where software is concerned). Unlike with other retail environments a recall order on software is practically unheard of (I am sure there are a few cases of it happening but it is extremely rare in the main) since post-release patches/updates is considered the norm for addressing problems.

I realize you are addressing another persons response in a " just for sake of argument" vein here but after the retailer has the merchandise on his shelf isn't he pretty much stuck with it? Again Roger I am not speaking "at" you but rather in a more basic generality. If Ego gives Steam the green light and Steam sells the game why is Steam responsible for the product if it is bad? I do understand the retailer part of the responsibility but it is not actually a Steam product. They did not manufacture it. They simply distribute it at a % of the sale. Considering they only receive a % of the sale why should anyone think the distributer owes them a full refund?

And if any game is bad but the actual software provider is making honest efforts to fix and repair the software via upgrades successfully downloaded via Steam which is actually a Steam service provided to the registered user for free regardless if they own 1 or 1000 games then again why should the distributer be held responsible for the refunds of faulty game software? If I owned any kind of store and had a few people a day coming in for refunds from products they did not like well ok no big deal but if I had hundreds of people clamoring at the gates I am going to lock the doors. I can see holding the actual company responsible for full refunds but the distributer not so much. To me if it is a clean purchase with a clean down load then a company like Steam has fulfilled its obligation to their customers. It is not up to the retailer to insure the product is actually good. Any problems beyond that should be between the customer and the actual manufacturer of the product.

Now sure if a product continues to be bad the retailer should notify the source company we will no longer carry your product etc and we could go much farther in discussing broader responsibilities but I am just talking about the most basic core responsibilities between customer retailer and actual manufacturer.

@ Roger, I have seen by your posts that you are involved in software yourself so how do you handle a problem if a bad software is released via a distributer and all the customers are demanding the distributer refund the money? I would imagine the distributer would be on the phone immediately demanding some type of reimbursement and to buy back any inventory or legal issues will arise.

rpek32 · Post by **rpek32** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:05

dcarver wrote:I paid for a kick-starter project without realizing it.

A pre-order beta is what they should have done

actually...

Spoiler

Show

yes

but some persons from "target audience" have a different opinion

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:08

Arraamis wrote:That's not how its supposed to work!!!!!!

Yet that is what most people end up doing with any modern computer whether explicit or not. Microsoft Windows? Hardware Drivers? and to a certain degree Linux?

Post by **Santi** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:09

Rpek32 wrote:but some persons from "target audience" have a different opinion

Yes, it is called Freedom of speech, any problems with that?

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:20

deu58 wrote:@ Roger, I have seen by your posts that you are involved in software yourself so how do you handle a problem if a bad software is released via a distributer and all the customers are demanding the distributer refund the money? I would imagine the distributer would be on the phone immediately demanding some type of reimbursement and to buy back any inventory or legal issues will arise.

Most of the software I am involved with authoring is either bespoke or sold direct as COTS. On some occasions my employers (past and present) are either the sub or the prime on any given contract. The software in question is sold with support and we are committed to provide that support with-in the bounds of the contract (even in the COTS cases).

In general, in the rare occasions when there have been serious issues the customer in question has typically accepted a staged or delayed delivery sometimes with additional creative material, data, or functionality done for free as a form of compensation.

Such contracts I have been involved with cost the customer in question ALOT more than the paltry sum we pay for Egosoft games and we get a rather active support commitment from them without additional charge where as my employers' customers would have to pay for similar privileges.

Very few games companies support their products long after release as well as Egosoft has done and I suspect will continue to do (God willing).

As customers we get a very good deal from Egosoft on balance.

rpek32 · Post by **rpek32** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:23

santi wrote:
Rpek32 wrote:but some persons from "target audience" have a different opinion
Yes, it is called Freedom of speech, any problems with that?

yes.
when 70 people say that the product is bad (and thus lead the facts), and 30 people say that the product is good (expressing his opinion). this becomes a problem in society.

facts beat opinion. science beat religion.

tuareg · Post by **tuareg** » Wed, 18. Dec 13, 21:55

rpek32 wrote:
santi wrote:
Rpek32 wrote:but some persons from "target audience" have a different opinion
Yes, it is called Freedom of speech, any problems with that?
yes.
when 70 people say that the product is bad (and thus lead the facts), and 30 people say that the product is good (expressing his opinion). this becomes a problem in society.

facts beat opinion. science beat religion.

you are too nice. stick to 95-5 pls

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

For whole "target audience" and mr. L Bernd