For whole "target audience" and mr. L Bernd

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

quality of the actual software doesnt really affect how a review talk about a game. sure it would get SOME better score but not because they could enjoy the /nonexisting/ features, but because it would be in a better state as a software... but not as a game.

That is where we will have to agree to disagree ... yet again ... some of the perceived deficiencies may not actually be design flaws but rather bugs (or a consequence there of). It is a subtle point perhaps, but it is there.

Ok Can you give an example of a perceived flaw that is just a bug?

EU4 basically pointed at one obvious one in another thread - the clipping of ships with stations during docking and flight.

Others include the state of the in-game economy, the behaviour of AI ships, etc.

[vargata]

quality of the actual software doesnt really affect how a review talk about a game. sure it would get SOME better score but not because they could enjoy the /nonexisting/ features, but because it would be in a better state as a software... but not as a game.

That is where we will have to agree to disagree ... yet again ... some of the perceived deficiencies may not actually be design flaws but rather bugs (or a consequence there of). It is a subtle point perhaps, but it is there.

Ok Can you give an example of a perceived flaw that is just a bug?

EU4 basically pointed at one obvious one in another thread - the clipping of ships with stations during docking and flight.

Others include the state of the in-game economy, the behaviour of AI ships, etc.

those are clear bugs. lets talk about the ui, talk about the fleethandling, talk about the interactions, the minigames, the dumbed down trading... those are the flawed features and those are not bugs or caused misunderstanding by bugs...

Strange how there is no large UK media review listed there - are they avoiding the game review, or have they simply been missed?

PC Gamer, PC Format, CVG, Eurogamer (UK), EDGE, Gamesradar..etc etc etc?

Although I dread to actually read EDGE's review of the game..

"De mortuis nil nisi bonum" English ppl are too polite

[steelgrey75]

But in any case, werewolves? is right - it is all rather subjective in the main where any review is concerned since it is based on opinions and perceptions on the most part.

Rather a lot of these opinions seem to agree with one another though don't they. So whether they are opinions or not, the overall opinion of everybodys opinions is that the game is bad.
You can defend it all you like and harp on about the reviews being biased, which must of course mean that they are all biased.

I think you missed my point - which was that I do not believe the game is in a fit state for a reviewer to make an objective assessment of the game.

What do you mean? Its not ready for a review? Its been released hasn't it? Money was taken from my bank account to pay for it. Its a product that anybody can buy for money. If its at the stage then its fit for a review. They don't write reviews and score them on future potential, they review what has been given to them.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@steelgrey75: bad reviews are not an excuse for poor behaviour which is what some people seem to be using it as. As stated before, I care not a wit about the reviews personally - their views are not in-line with mine, but that is ok - it would be boring if everyone was the same.

@vargata: There is a difference between bad design and a design people disagree with. The later is often couched with personal expectations often based on past experience.

I personally approached this game as a clean slate, but I doubt many did despite the pre-release warning signs about the different nature of the game. Even given this, I would never claim the game is perfect by a long shot but it does not deserve the level of non-constructive criticism levelled at it from certain quarters.

[vargata]

@steelgrey75: bad reviews are not an excuse for poor behaviour which is what some people seem to be using it as. As stated before, I care not a wit about the reviews personally - their views are not in-line with mine, but that is ok - it would be boring if everyone was the same.

@vargata: There is a difference between bad design and a design people disagree with. The later is often couched with personal expectations often based on past experience.

I personally approached this game as a clean slate, but I doubt many did despite the pre-release warning signs about the different nature of the game. Even given this, I would never claim the game is perfect by a long shot but it does not deserve the level of non-constructive criticism levelled at it from certain quarters.

well, i think the difference between bad design and design MOST people disagree with is quite thin. isn't it? i mean, a developer like myself can say it's design is successful if most of the users will like it and find it easy and functional. in case of X:R this is not the case.
a week before release i've posted on facebook that im not going to buy this game 'cos i saw the grannys and the stationbouncing fighters in the videos, but there were so nice promises that i've said, well, even if it's not X4, even if some things were simplified (then i didnt think it was dumbed down, just simplified) it still can't be so bad after X3.
Sad i've trusted ego so much at the last day before release i've just pre-ordered. biggest mistake of my gamer life. i've tried to get it as a total new game but its so ugly, it so much lack of every content and all the aspects are done so poorly... man, i'm 35 and playing since 15 but never ever bought such a bad game... and its not about bugs
and i think most of those are still here complaining have the same issue as myself. some might be mad cos they wanted pure X4 but trust me, most of us didnt. we were aware that this is NOT X4. Now we want it even more. and thats why we dont leave and thats why we say again and again that this is a rubbish and will more and more "non-contructive criticism" cos we wanna persuade ego to stop messing with this stillborn game and start working on a real X ASAP.
why so desperate? its not bread to depend on it, but X meant the relieve from the everydays for long years for many of us and this game is not what can do the same. believe me, when i've started to play, after 3 hours i already knew it's not for me and it's beyond fixes (we could also debate on what fixes could improve it, well for me and most of us nothing so again, if it doesnt work for the most then it doesnt work. its as simple). after 50 hours i say the same or even worse... and at that point i just stopped trying at all.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

If wishes were fishes we would never be hungry... or we would be bored of fish

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it. Many of those players do see some flaws (not necessarily the same as the ones you see) but also recognise that there are plans by Egosoft to address said flaws.

It is likely that there will never be an X4 of the kind you are asking for based on the general vibe I have picked up on so you may as well be screaming into a vacuum for all the use it would do you. By all means keep asking for it if that is what you want but I would request that the non-constructive criticism of X-Rebirth in pursuit of that cause stop.

[steelgrey75]

@steelgrey75: bad reviews are not an excuse for poor behaviour which is what some people seem to be using it as. As stated before, I care not a wit about the reviews personally - their views are not in-line with mine, but that is ok - it would be boring if everyone was the same

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but what on earth are you talking about? WHat has this to do with my comment, or the one I quoted of yours? I wasn't asking about peoples behaviour, I was asking you to clarify why the game should not be reviewed even though its been out on sale for a month and people are buying it. Yet you seem to want them to review it in the future and not now. Why shouldn't they review it now? People who are thinking of the buying the game right now want to read reviews of it right now.

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it.

Do you think this select few that enjoy the game, just under 2000 play at peak according to steam, is enough to support Egosoft? Where have all the players of the other X games disappeared to? There may be a portion who are holding off playing until the bugs have all been ironed out, but I very much doubt the amount of people playing will rise significantly. There are not enough of you people that enjoy the game to keep Egosoft afloat, their future must be very uncertain at the moment. All this to please a handful and piss off the majority. Silly decision made buy them, perhaps fatal for the company, time till tell.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@steelgrey75: bad reviews are not an excuse for poor behaviour which is what some people seem to be using it as. As stated before, I care not a wit about the reviews personally - their views are not in-line with mine, but that is ok - it would be boring if everyone was the same

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but what on earth are you talking about? WHat has this to do with my comment, or the one I quoted of yours? I wasn't asking about peoples behaviour, I was asking you to clarify why the game should not be reviewed even though its been out on sale for a month and people are buying it. Yet you seem to want them to review it in the future and not now. Why shouldn't they review it now? People who are thinking of the buying the game right now want to read reviews of it right now.

You probably missed my earlier point, the reviews are as they are... done, water under the bridge and all that... but even by Bernd's own admittance it would have been released as an Early Access game had the option been available to them (which apparently it was not due to contractual commitments). Given this, X-Rebirth would more probably be fairly due a second review chance at some point in the future. Whether it will get it or not is probably rather moot at the end of the day as the damage has already been done in many people's eyes.

This leads on to the point I made in response to the First part of your response to my post. Bad reviews is not a good reason for people to start pushing their own agenda in a non-constructive fashion on the forums for the reviewed item - especially when there are a quorum of people who do support the reviewed item.

[vargata]

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it.

Because we've been ripped off. from how many like the game ego would probably starve to death... also, because as I've said already we are desperate to get a real X game, doesnt matter if it comes from ego or ED or SC, but we liked the way ego had and simply just can't give up on them (and i fear that the other 2 will also not even be close to what X used to be)

[dzhedzho]

If wishes were fishes we would never be hungry... or we would be bored of fish

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it. Many of those players do see some flaws (not necessarily the same as the ones you see) but also recognise that there are plans by Egosoft to address said flaws.

It is likely that there will never be an X4 of the kind you are asking for based on the general vibe I have picked up on so you may as well be screaming into a vacuum for all the use it would do you. By all means keep asking for it if that is what you want but I would request that the non-constructive criticism of X-Rebirth in pursuit of that cause stop.

So you will basically turn any future improvements.

The UI is definitely not a bug, it's a cocked up design.
The property menu is one of the worst offenders.
So I have 10 Rahanas (container)
Now I open the property menu - and they are all called the same, you can't rename them, and to make things worse, they change their order from time to time.
You have to click a button on each one to get to their details, and dig in to find their captain name, freight or anything to distinguish them.

Or I give the trade order to the wrong ship (because they are all named the same, remember).
Then I have to quit the trade menu, navigate through the "great" property menu, spend bunch of time to find the correct ship (because they are all named the same, did I mention that?), and cancel the order.

You really don't see the design flaw in this?

And the reason I am talking about it, is because I want to see this addressed.

But as long as there at least some people happy.

I'll repeat myself, but...
It's like saying, I am not poor, therefore there are no poor people, and poverty is no longer a problem...

You needn't care about our problem, but honestly I couldn't care less about yours.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it.

Because we've been ripped off. from how many like the game ego would probably starve to death... also, because as I've said already we are desperate to get a real X game, doesnt matter if it comes from ego or ED or SC, but we liked the way ego had and simply just can't give up on them (and i fear that the other 2 will also not even be close to what X used to be)

So go back to playing modded X3?

You may not like the new formula, but that does not mean you have been ripped off and if you want a real X game then you need to be more constructive in how you approach it otherwise you will just end up disappointing yourself and annoying others.

[steelgrey75]

@steelgrey75: bad reviews are not an excuse for poor behaviour which is what some people seem to be using it as. As stated before, I care not a wit about the reviews personally - their views are not in-line with mine, but that is ok - it would be boring if everyone was the same

I don't want to sound rude or anything, but what on earth are you talking about? WHat has this to do with my comment, or the one I quoted of yours? I wasn't asking about peoples behaviour, I was asking you to clarify why the game should not be reviewed even though its been out on sale for a month and people are buying it. Yet you seem to want them to review it in the future and not now. Why shouldn't they review it now? People who are thinking of the buying the game right now want to read reviews of it right now.

You probably missed my earlier point, the reviews are as they are... done, water under the bridge and all that... but even by Bernd's own admittance it would have been released as an Early Access game had the option been available to them (which apparently it was not due to contractual commitments). Given this, X-Rebirth would more probably be fairly due a second review chance at some point in the future. Whether it will get it or not is probably rather moot at the end of the day as the damage has already been done in many people's eyes.

This leads on to the point I made in response to the First part of your response to my post. Bad reviews is not a good reason for people to start pushing their own agenda in a non-constructive fashion on the forums for the reviewed item - especially when there are a quorum of people who do support the reviewed item.

You still skirt around it. I asked you why the game should not be reviewed at the moment, considering its actually on sale right now and has been for over a month. It sounds to me as though you think its actually unfair to review the game right now because you personally believe its being underscored, and that the game will be better in months to come so review it then and not now. Well I don't agree with that. It should be reviewed right now, and all its vices should be made public so that people who are thinking of buying can be informed a little better.
I said previously, the small percentage of people who are actually regularly playing the game is incredibly small, I cant imagine for a moment that they are going to be enough to keep this company going. It reminds me of going down with a sinking ship. I really do think that the future is looking very bleak for Egosoft, they have lost a hell of a lot of fans and the internet is filled with distasteful posts aimed directly at them. For a small company that must be worrying.

[Cronos988]

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it. Many of those players do see some flaws (not necessarily the same as the ones you see) but also recognise that there are plans by Egosoft to address said flaws.

It's not about accepting there are people who like the game. I can "accept" a fact for what it is. What I don't accept, and what drives me to these forums, is developing the X-Series in the wrong direction. The things Egosoft implemented by release (i.e. the things they considered important) show me that they are going in a direction that I don't like and support.

Therefore, I make my voice heard to that effect and hope that, if enough people have similar views, Egosoft will reconsider. Or maybe another dev will see that there is demand for that kind of game and make it. Because I want a different kind of game, and I hat hoped, based on the previous X-Titles, that Egosoft could make it.

Making our voices heard and saying "no, we are not okay with this", is all we as customers can do. We cannot demand Egosoft to do what we want, but we can at least show them that there are people who want that other kind of game.

[veelad]

Cronos988 wrote

and what drives me to these forums, is developing the X-Series in the wrong direction

He does have a good point here, there is the old saying " If it's not broken, don't try and fix it "

I think this is part of the problem, in that Egosoft set a very high benchmark with TC and Albion, and they were, and probably still are, the best of the best in space sim, sandbox, build and trade.

Rebirth, was supposed to give us the same depth and experience of gameplay with a new engine behind the game, and has fallen way short in virtually all areas of the "expected" game play.

I am still playing rebirth, but using the experience as a learning exercise and not trying to plan, or build any empires as I would have done in previous games, mainly because the trade and UI is very complex and in many areas, broken.

I still expect rebirth to achieve its potential, and if the devs nursemaid the game in the right direction as well as fix the bugs, it could still yet prove to be a winner.

Well lets hope so, anyways

[vargata]

Ok, I certainly appreciate that many find the new X Series formula displeasing for various reasons - but why can't the individuals in question simply accept that there are still a quorum of people who actually like the game and support it.

Because we've been ripped off. from how many like the game ego would probably starve to death... also, because as I've said already we are desperate to get a real X game, doesnt matter if it comes from ego or ED or SC, but we liked the way ego had and simply just can't give up on them (and i fear that the other 2 will also not even be close to what X used to be)

So go back to playing modded X3?

You may not like the new formula, but that does not mean you have been ripped off and if you want a real X game then you need to be more constructive in how you approach it otherwise you will just end up disappointing yourself and annoying others.

i still play x3 but without mods. I dont play modded games, if i dont like a feature can be modded i do it mostly for myself but even that is rare. if i pay for a promise and i get something else for it, it means i've been ripped off, its not a question.
well to be constructive, i've tried, we had a couple of things (filled a whole page) what should be changed to make it better (not X4 just a playable X:R, changes for an X4 would probably fill 3-4 pages ^^) but bernd clearly said they will not change the concept. well we dont have anything else now in hand but to express our disappointment. and after you and the rest of the gamedefending 300 spartan disappeared in boredom, and im sure it will happen, then ego might realise what is the path they CAN walk. or they will sink...

Cronos988 wrote

and what drives me to these forums, is developing the X-Series in the wrong direction

He does have a good point here, there is the old saying " If it's not broken, don't try and fix it "

I think this is part of the problem, in that Egosoft set a very high benchmark with TC and Albion, and they were, and probably still are, the best of the best in space sim, sandbox, build and trade.

Rebirth, was supposed to give us the same depth and experience of gameplay with a new engine behind the game, and has fallen way short in virtually all areas of the "expected" game play.

I am still playing rebirth, but using the experience as a learning exercise and not trying to plan, or build any empires as I would have done in previous games, mainly because the trade and UI is very complex and in many areas, broken.

I still expect rebirth to achieve its potential, and if the devs nursemaid the game in the right direction as well as fix the bugs, it could still yet prove to be a winner.

Well lets hope so, anyways

yes, if we yell enough and wait for X3:Rebirth TC we might get a winner but then i will turn into 45 :/

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@steelgrey75: On the contrary, just because you do not like my answer does not mean I am "skirting the issue". If players depend on reviews for being informed then whether the review is one day or one year after initial release it will make no difference. The absence of official reviews would be the cause to pause.

@Cronos988: How is X-Rebirth developing the series in the wrong direction exactly? All along since before release it was known that V1.0 would be the starting point and Egosoft planned to evolve the game features based on end-user feedback. Ok, the initial release was poorly tested and perhaps far too simplified but Egosoft know this and are trying to address the issues as quickly as possible - such changes do not happen overnight and overwhelmingly negative forums do nothing to accelerate the process.

[Santi]

and after you and the rest of the gamedefending 300 spartan disappeared in boredom, and im sure it will happen, then ego might realise what is the path they CAN walk. or they will sink...

Any reason why you want him to go? Ah yes, that is when Egosoft decides to walk somewhere or sink.

[rpek32]

You aren't anymore interested in Rebirth. So, what's the profit guys?

Obvious reason:
we do not want to shut this company because she did a good game . and the company continued to make games for personal computers, and not cross-platform muck . we also want to see the company that produce games of this quality is unacceptable - the actions she threw gnawed bone and spit instead of a full product. and showed that it does not respect the fans of the series X. If the company will continue to produce products of this quality , it is closed (which is obvious : poor sales - bad profit) . The primary audience of the series X Games - PC users are older . Because this game is complex and multifaceted that attracts people who are accustomed to think rather than mindlessly press joystick buttons and enjoy the WOW effect of explosions.
In the games of the series X - gameplay comes first . A special effects - on the second.

I asked you why the game should not be reviewed at the moment, considering its actually on sale right now and has been for over a month.

Actually, its a wrong question. Cuz all games reviewed after release. Releases shows the quality of product and helps to decide the customers: to buy, or not to buy.

[vargata]

How is X-Rebirth developing the series in the wrong direction exactly? All along since before release it was known that V1.0 would be the starting point and Egosoft planned to evolve the game features based on end-user feedback.

- Giving you a choice of NPCs with good known skills after "winning" a smalltalk (so the reward is no longer random)

- Crates on platforms will be re-balanced

- Improve the "asking for people" conversation

- Improve feedback when NPC can not be hired (e.g. ship is full / NPC is busy)

- Showing minimap (gravidar) on event monitor instead of "no signal"

all these say they are not going to change the most annoying stuff, they are just going to make them somewhat usable. For us it will still be the same crap. you will have a gravidar right when you dont need it, but as soon as you get in fight you will NOT have it... (its stupid even to be just a quickfix) crates remain npc crap remain hired npcs fill the cargobay remain, minigames remain... yes its all say they went into a direction the majority of their buyers dont accept. i think everywhere this is what called E.P.I.C. that some of you does? they will not be able to feed kids from those numbers

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

and after you and the rest of the gamedefending 300 spartan disappeared in boredom, and im sure it will happen, then ego might realise what is the path they CAN walk. or they will sink...

Any reason why you want him to go? Ah yes, that is when Egosoft decides to walk somewhere or sink.

And actually, he would be waiting till hell froze over for the "expected event". Having by Vargata's own admission not played "modded games", I feel he is missing out on (what I feel is) a significantly large portion of the X Universe experience (at least since X2). I avoided mods for X2, but started realising what I had been missing when I tried XTM for X3:R.