AI - honestly?

Hob Anagerik · Post by **Hob Anagerik** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:23

So instead of fixing the AI they wrote in more dummy traffic that really doesn't do anything and can in fact be completely removed with thanks to our talented modding community.

I remember asking question years ago, when I still played X games, asking for reassurance that their next game was going to take advantage of 64bit computing and multi core processors. I was assured that this stuff was not taken into account for X3 and onwards due to when development had started but their next game would. Oh well....

Haysand · Post by **Haysand** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:25

Cronos988 wrote: And what do they do in X:R? Do more of the things they are terrible at, and ignore the things they did well previously.

However, considering they wanted to divert from previous X games, they did not have much choice.

What is even more interesting, they even got wrong things they are good at....

daish0 · Post by **daish0** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:29

Hob Anagerik wrote:
daish0 wrote:Why is everyone talking about "last 7 years" ... Albion Prelude came out 2011 ... we have 2013 ... those are 2 years, not 7 ... learn to calculate
Perhaps you should educate yourself before you point fingers at others. The rumour is that the game has been kicked around since X3: Reunion and was an attempt to enter the console market. Over the years this objective was increasingly unlikely, for a variety of reasons, and they were left with a chunk of beta code so they had a choice: ditch it or spin it as a "new" PC title. And here we are.

Now this is merely educated speculation in reality, with "evidence" being booted around that on first glance appears to be quite convincing.

If you were to ignore this however and believe this was developed from the ground up as a PC game then the reality is far more horrifying: that Egosoft are utterly incompetent and completely misjudged what their market really is and what their loving community desired.

Even if some code existed 7 years ago ... its the work of 2 years of development because all the other years they were working on X3 series ... and I seriously doubt they had a nearly finished game back then, as nobody codes a whole game and then dumps it ...

ok, if I consider HL2 or DN:F ... maybe you're right.

But in this case, I doubt it.

Ratez · Post by **Ratez** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:34

daish0 wrote:
Hob Anagerik wrote:
daish0 wrote:Why is everyone talking about "last 7 years" ... Albion Prelude came out 2011 ... we have 2013 ... those are 2 years, not 7 ... learn to calculate
Perhaps you should educate yourself before you point fingers at others. The rumour is that the game has been kicked around since X3: Reunion and was an attempt to enter the console market. Over the years this objective was increasingly unlikely, for a variety of reasons, and they were left with a chunk of beta code so they had a choice: ditch it or spin it as a "new" PC title. And here we are.

Now this is merely educated speculation in reality, with "evidence" being booted around that on first glance appears to be quite convincing.

If you were to ignore this however and believe this was developed from the ground up as a PC game then the reality is far more horrifying: that Egosoft are utterly incompetent and completely misjudged what their market really is and what their loving community desired.
Even if some code existed 7 years ago ... its the work of 2 years of development because all the other years they were working on X3 series ... and I seriously doubt they had a nearly finished game back then, as nobody codes a whole game and then dumps it ...

ok, if I consider HL2 or DN:F ... maybe you're right.

But in this case, I doubt it.

7 years or not, we can all agree they should not have released this game. If modders can fix so much in a week, whats their excuse?

Cronos988 · Post by **Cronos988** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:36

Haysand wrote: However, considering they wanted to divert from previous X games, they did not have much choice.

Well, I'd say they just didn't make the right choices. What to divert from and what to keep was their decision, no-one forced them to do things they weren't good at. I really think Egosoft is just out of ideas to improve the space sim genre. It kind of looks like they just can't write a better AI, and they just can't make a good UI. They just don't know how to make an economy complex and fun. So they try different stuff, like immersion, NPC models, minigames. But they are just no good at those. To me, X:R is a clear sign that Egosoft has lost their vision of the space-sim genre.

What made TC and AP so great games was adapting ideas from the community. They added a few of their own ideas, which were partly good and partly horrible (Marines with names and Skills? Cool. Wait we are supposed to get them to the target in 4m/s Spacesuits? Wtf!)

Hob Anagerik · Post by **Hob Anagerik** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:41

Ratez wrote:7 years or not, we can all agree they should not have released this game. If modders can fix so much in a week, whats their excuse?

That's a really good point. +1 Rep to you sir, now where's that button....But seriously, it does make you think and wonder what has been going on. Though would it be fair to say that the "fixes" you refer to are more tweaks to the design of the game, rather than actual bug fixes? If so then all that illustrates is Egosofts belief in it's own design being the right way to proceed, which would seem to be entirely out of whack with what the community wanted. There is no fixing that without a dialogue between them and us. That never happened and thus here we are.

Ratez · Post by **Ratez** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:45

Hob Anagerik wrote:
Ratez wrote:7 years or not, we can all agree they should not have released this game. If modders can fix so much in a week, whats their excuse?
That's a really good point. +1 Rep to you sir, now where's that button....But seriously, it does make you think and wonder what has been going on. Though would it be fair to say that the "fixes" you refer to are more tweaks to the design of the game, rather than actual bug fixes? If so then all that illustrates is Egosofts belief in it's own design being the right way to proceed, which would seem to be entirely out of whack with what the community wanted. There is no fixing that without a dialogue between them and us. That never happened and thus here we are.

I just wonder who they hired as their game testers. Unless all these bugs magically popped up on launch. If I was paid to sabotage a game I wouldn't have made what X:R has become because it will be too obvious and a dead-giveaway. But YET here we are, a game that is just naturally broken (BADLY at that). I have to worry when I save games in fear of saving a bug and having to restart again.

Haysand · Post by **Haysand** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:49

Cronos988 wrote: What to divert from and what to keep was their decision, no-one forced them to do things they weren't good at.

If their previous games were not making enough money, they need to do go for something different.

Being stale is a good way to lose your business.

Regardless how I think the mismanaged and horrid the game is on design level, it seems like it worked out for them - their sales are likely solid.

Haysand · Post by **Haysand** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:50

Ratez wrote: I just wonder who they hired as their game testers. Unless all these bugs magically popped up on launch.

Bug hunting and fixing isn't the same process.

csaba · Post by **csaba** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:54

hmm I left my Fendhelm in Darned Heat to collect ore and it did fill up after half an hour without this mod. Although I was NOT following it I was doing other stuff around. Also when I initially did it was just going in circles damaging the asteroids but didn't take the time to blow them up entirely.

Texhnolyzed · Post by **Texhnolyzed** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:56

Are you blind?

The very first sentence in the official launch news: "The time has come: after seven long years of development, X Rebirth is finally available."

Sirrobert · Post by **Sirrobert** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 13:58

Haysand wrote:
Cronos988 wrote: What to divert from and what to keep was their decision, no-one forced them to do things they weren't good at.
If their previous games were not making enough money, they need to do go for something different.

Being stale is a good way to lose your business.

Regardless how I think the mismanaged and horrid the game is on design level, it seems like it worked out for them - their sales are likely solid.

Ofcourse they sold alot. They had prepurches running for forever. Those made some very good abuse of the popularity of X3.
Especially with 0 reviews until AFTER the release.
It's Aliens Colonial Marines all over again

Haysand · Post by **Haysand** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:14

Sirrobert wrote: Ofcourse they sold alot. They had prepurches running for forever. Those made some very good abuse of the popularity of X3.
Especially with 0 reviews until AFTER the release.
It's Aliens Colonial Marines all over again

Not sure what your point is there.

Are you pointing out that there are people willing to make blind purchases or that they get what they ask for?

You statrement about popularity is ridiculous, X games were never popular.

Ratez · Post by **Ratez** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:18

Semi off topic but how do I sell the ore on my Fedhelm?

On-topic : Does the navigation skill of the captain affect this? I would presume the higher it is the less r******* it is -> actively seeking ores instead.

Ugottabejoking · Post by **Ugottabejoking** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:18

Ratez wrote:This game is truly realistic. It immerses us by bringing real life intelligence into the game, including both spectrum of intelligence.

Who would of thought to create artificial stupidity? It is truly a work befitting of the 7 years they have spent on perfecting the game. Egosoft once again outdone themselves.

artificial stupidity....I had to laugh ^^.

IF IT WOULDN'T BE SO ****** SAD!

Sirrobert · Post by **Sirrobert** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:19

Haysand wrote:
Sirrobert wrote: Ofcourse they sold alot. They had prepurches running for forever. Those made some very good abuse of the popularity of X3.
Especially with 0 reviews until AFTER the release.
It's Aliens Colonial Marines all over again
Not sure what your point is there.

Are you pointing out that there are people willing to make blind purchases or that they get what they ask for?

You statrement about popularity is ridiculous, X3 was never popular.

The people that loved it trusted Egosoft into making something good, and thus pre purched it.
They created a massive hype, without any reviews, and the people caught in that also pre purched.

This game sold good for the same reason bad movies used to sell good. Everyone thought it was good, so it sold alot of tickets in the opening week. And only after that week, the reviews came in and warned those who hadn't seen it yet that it was a bad movie

froggyluv · Post by **froggyluv** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:27

AI is the hardest thing to implement into free form, 3d world sandbox period. Personally I think it's on it's way out due to it's cost to production ratio in that a seemingly decent AI built on the back of years of laborious coding can easily be trashed and panned as horrible if it's got one critical bug that makes the AI look stupid.

That's why more and more games are either going the PvP route, or for their finicky SP crowd they give them a more "scripted affair" on tracks so the bots have less room for error.

It's a shame really and even when the AI feels bad, we should applaud or at least support it's continued development or it will be a thing of the past.

SteveMill · Post by **SteveMill** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:35

And if the AI is non existent as in this 'fly around until you hit something' example? Do we have to applaud that also?

Sirrobert · Post by **Sirrobert** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:45

SteveMill wrote:And if the AI is non existent as in this 'fly around until you hit something' example? Do we have to applaud that also?

Especially when there is already a mod that fixes it

swatti · Post by **swatti** » Wed, 20. Nov 13, 14:50

Before repeating how bad things are, remember what egosoft is good at, how many of you even remember that?

Its post-launch support and patching. They may have left lots un-fixed in X3 but the engine had its limits.

Also, they now have to fix what they started or its their last release... may i also remind you making post-launch patches dont bring much money, instead the bad review that may just be outdated soon still hurts the sales.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

AI - honestly?