[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.30d (02.12.13)

[d_ka]

Yea, it can be quite frustrating when you haven´t saved....
You can avoid it by undocking on autopilot ( like ordering your ship to dock at another station automaticaly ), not manually hitting the "undock" button. The collisions seems to be disabled then, so you don´t need to bring another ship and leave the sector.

[MutantDwarf]

Bah! After getting the XRM to work with AP's Argon plot (via using the TC Plots in AP replacement 'War' missions), I find out that you need to install a Military Scanner in one of the missions... into a Discoverer. Yeah, that's not going to work.

Bah. Gonna have to dig into the plot a bit more to make sure everything works before I release it. At least I've confirmed that the general idea works, though.

[paulwheeler]

Hoping this is fixable but I experienced an incredibly weird issue with the new Sirokos, one that can frustrate a few people.

So I docked into a Cluster Flak Array Forge in Ore Belt, but when I tried to leave, my ship was stuck, kept taking damage (while the faction computer was going "YO BRO STOP DAMAGING OUR STATIONS OR WE'LL ICE YOU" warning), and then just blows up. Tried everything from rolling, strafing, waving my mouse around (I use classic), even issuing a Jump command, but I just don't have enough shielding to withstand the damage and I always end up dying.

Use the autopilot to undock - then collisions are disabled.

[paulwheeler]

Hey there.

Could i ask you guys a big favour?
Could you take a look at the M8/M7M missile logic?

Its really a pain in the ass.
Actually, its the only thing what makes me really unhappy about XRM. ^^

I kinda like those shipclasses, not just to command them around,
i like to kill stuff with them myself.

1. Would it be possible to make the "Attack my target" turretcommand work?

1.1 And not just by firing a single missile on a M5-3,
just to wait a hour until the ship is ready to fire the next single missile which will be disabled by the enemy the same way?

2. By choosing the command "Shoot Fighters" it actually just prefers caps...

3. Would it be possible to narrow down the fitting missiles for missile turrets to m7m/m8 missiles?
Thereby other missiles could be used the regular way.
Your way to fix it was just to remove all other missiletypes.

I'd like to add them without having turrets firing wasps on caps and firestorms on m5s.

4. And seriously? 30 seconds for a wave?
Again, by shooting an m5 you have to wait 30 seconds until do launch the next missile, if you gonna fly a M8.
M7M are able to fire faster ones with 3 rbm at least...

But its still a joke to watch M7Ms not being able to kill a faster ship with
a decent missile defense like forever.


Please take a look!

Regards

I assume you're playing AP...?

The XRM uses vanilla AP's missile mechanics. The only difference is that the missile refire rates are slowed down.

M7Ms, M8s and M3B should only be able to mount Tomahawks, Hammers, Flails and the Terran equivalents, plus mosquito missiles for missile defence. If your missile boats can mount other missiles then something is wrong with your installation (the game isn't loading the XRM TShips) and you'll be experiencing a lot of other issues with your game (such as not seeing any XRM added ships).

Vanilla TC's missile boat mechanics are way overpowered in favour of the player (the AI can't fire). AP fixes this. The barrage command is way overpowered in favour of the player - it cannot be used by the AI - which is why I removed it.

Even in real life you wouldn't expect a bomb or heavy payload missile to be able to hit a fast, manoeuvrable fighter jet. In my opinion M7Ms and M8s should just ignore fighters completely (certainly M4s and M5s, maybe not M3s) with their missiles.

If you are trying to hit fighters a bomber is not the correct tool - there is no "one-size-fits-all" ship in the XRM - this is a deliberate balancing decision.

In any case, any alterations of the mechanics involves a lot of altering of vanilla scripts, which is not something I want to get into.

[LikeANO0b]

Hey there.

Could i ask you guys a big favour?
Could you take a look at the M8/M7M missile logic?

Its really a pain in the ass.
Actually, its the only thing what makes me really unhappy about XRM. ^^

I kinda like those shipclasses, not just to command them around,
i like to kill stuff with them myself.

1. Would it be possible to make the "Attack my target" turretcommand work?

1.1 And not just by firing a single missile on a M5-3,
just to wait a hour until the ship is ready to fire the next single missile which will be disabled by the enemy the same way?

2. By choosing the command "Shoot Fighters" it actually just prefers caps...

3. Would it be possible to narrow down the fitting missiles for missile turrets to m7m/m8 missiles?
Thereby other missiles could be used the regular way.
Your way to fix it was just to remove all other missiletypes.

I'd like to add them without having turrets firing wasps on caps and firestorms on m5s.

4. And seriously? 30 seconds for a wave?
Again, by shooting an m5 you have to wait 30 seconds until do launch the next missile, if you gonna fly a M8.
M7M are able to fire faster ones with 3 rbm at least...

But its still a joke to watch M7Ms not being able to kill a faster ship with
a decent missile defense like forever.


Please take a look!

Regards

I assume you're playing AP...?

The XRM uses vanilla AP's missile mechanics. The only difference is that the missile refire rates are slowed down.

M7Ms, M8s and M3B should only be able to mount Tomahawks, Hammers, Flails and the Terran equivalents, plus mosquito missiles for missile defence. If your missile boats can mount other missiles then something is wrong with your installation (the game isn't loading the XRM TShips) and you'll be experiencing a lot of other issues with your game (such as not seeing any XRM added ships).

Vanilla TC's missile boat mechanics are way overpowered in favour of the player (the AI can't fire). AP fixes this. The barrage command is way overpowered in favour of the player - it cannot be used by the AI - which is why I removed it.

Even in real life you wouldn't expect a bomb or heavy payload missile to be able to hit a fast, manoeuvrable fighter jet. In my opinion M7Ms and M8s should just ignore fighters completely (certainly M4s and M5s, maybe not M3s) with their missiles.

If you are trying to hit fighters a bomber is not the correct tool - there is no "one-size-fits-all" ship in the XRM - this is a deliberate balancing decision.

In any case, any alterations of the mechanics involves a lot of altering of vanilla scripts, which is not something I want to get into.

Nope, it got a completly new missile script, which i already looked into.

Yes, M7Ms, M8s and M3Bs are only able to fit those, but at least M7Ms
used to be able to handle alot more. In XRM they got removed,
i guess it was just easier to write a less strong missile script that way.
Otherwise it would be needed to define in the script that only the typical
M7M/M8/M3B missiles are used by missile turrets.
But the script only excludes moskitos.

And nope, there is nothing wrong with my installation, i'm just modding myself. I re-added them.
Just a little new at modding X Games, otherwise i'd adjust the missile script myself.

I know that the regular AP script was too strong, but what we got here
is a bad joke. ^^ XRM is awesome, but if you take a look at the
missile script you'll get what i mean.

If M7Ms shouldn't be able to hit Fighters, why do they have the command "Attack Fighters"?
And why are ONLY M7Ms able to fit Anti-Fighter M7M Missiles like e.g. Ghoul or Flail Barrage Missiles?

[paulwheeler]

The XRM in AP uses the vanilla missile scripts.

The XRM in TC uses custom scripts created by Litcube which are very similar to the vanilla AP scripts.

I should know - i created the mod!


M7Ms have only ever been able to mount Hammers, Flails and Mosquitos. This is true for the XRM, vanilla AP and vanilla TC (minus the mosquitoes).

I will not be altering the missile mechanics.

[Master of the Blade]

XRM's balancing of missile ships is impeccable IMO. They aren't massively threatening on their own, as antimissile turrets are able to focus on their widely spaced barrages.
Occupy those turrets with a few fighter wings, however, and those barrages will rip more or less anything a new one. Bombers cannot use antifighter missiles to encourage the use of fighters to counter enemy bombers, and M7Ms have potent antifighter missiles in the barrage variants - which are good but not enough to deter a strong fighter attack. This is a good thing - the class is not overpowered, but provides devastating supportive damage to its fleet.

One thing I really want to work which doesn't, however, is flying the ATF M3B as a fighter and playership. It's just so sexy.

[d_ka]

Funny, i always thought the whole M7M/M8 thing was way to overpowered, even with the XRM alterations. Not because the damage of those heavy missiles is way too high, - this is what the ships are ment to do - hit hard. It´s rather because of there are no efficient countermeasures while operating in fleet formations.
Let me explain this relying on navy combat:

1. Missile ( Torpedo ) Boats were small, agile ships, ment to unleash their ( very spare numbers of torpedos ) against larger, bulkier ships.
- those torpedos were unguided, and the target ships could evade them through manouvering, or by shooting them from a distance with their smaller cannons, but mostly machine guns
- but most importantly, the range of a promising torpedo attack never exceeded the range of projectile guns of any ship ( execptept MG, of course, which weren´t a primary armament, but rather Anti Air defences etc. )
So, basically, the Torpedo Boats could be taken out by any warship even before they would come in range; the Destroyers, which aren´t equivalent with X destroyers, actually, those should be rather called Cruisers ( light or heavier versions ), were actually the primary choice in defending convoys, or larger, bulkier warships from the threat of those pesky Torpedo Boats ( which were actually more like the M3B, but there were also bigger alterations, which would match the M8 ).
What we have in X is an ultimate weapon of mass destruction, which can attack at a distances far beyond the reach of any cannon that exists in game. And unless you bring your own missile boats with you, which then would shoot at their couterparts ( never ment to be shoot with torpedos, actually ), you loose. No balancing, not countermeasures, just plenty of dead ships on your side for what? I take M2(+) en masse and move in, or i simply shoot them with.... right, the allmighty M7M ->.....

2. M7M are, quite obviously, the X submarines; they attack from a distance far beyond any sensore scale ( even that of XRM military scanner ). They are quite vulnurable against direct attacks, though their heavy shielding ( and the best shield power generators among Frigates
! ) make them something very much stronger then any submarine, which relied on beeing undetected, but if it was to be discovered, it had really bad chances against even a single airplain armed with couple of bombs, despite torpedos. And, again, none of the heavier ships would be able to get in range fast enought to neglect the tactical advantage of a M7M, before it empties it´s whole ammunition reserves. Additionaly, none of the Bigger ships is able to mount adequate anti missile guns in their front/side turrets, and the AI never uses "missile defence" command on those. Also, if one would send anything smaller ( like a Corvete, or a fast Light Frigate ) to intercept a Missile Frigate, it would end up dead before it reaches the target, and i´m talking about an unguarded M7M. If fighters are sent to attack ( CODEA is perfect for this, it seems ), they´d be take down by flails ( in vanilla for sure ), since missile defence is nothing a fighter seriously can perform when we are talking about swarm missiles, or extremely agile missiles with good targeting systems + enormous range, and numbers ).

So, we have a situation when those two ship classes simply outperform anything that relies on conventional ship tactics, beeing able to destroy anything ´s been thrown against them, if you are trying to play a bit realistically ( i.e building a taskgroup, trying to develope some tactics, rather then simply overpowering your enemy in anything, from firepower to numbers, only choosing the heaviest shielded ships, just to survive those unbalanced two ship types.... ).

To make it short, i think there are several changes which could make those ships less of a "uber" weapons, but leave them deadly, while making tactical decissions on the battlefield more of an importance:

1. M8:
a. shortening the range of a Tomahawk missile would force the Missile Boats to actually close in to hit the big ships ( 25 km, i´d say, still 2,5 times exceeding the range of even a Gaus Cannon ).
b. disabling guidance system on those torpedos, would allow the heavier, bulkier M2/M2+/M1 to have a chance to evade those volleys.
c. in case the Tomahawks become dumbfire missiles, they probably should gain damage output, but also increase volume, not to allow the missile boats to carry a way to much of them. Costeffectiveness doesn´t mean "for free" ( which it is, once you´ve build a smaller complex to produce the missiles by yourself ).
d. other adjustments, like refire rates, number of launchers etc. etc. not nessesary reducing the values, but adjusting to balace them properly.

2. M7M
a. their strengh lies in the range and precission of their missiles, but they are unkillable, unless you have your own long range "artillery" with you. But calling those Missile Frigates "artillery" isn´t quite correct, at least not if one compares X with naval engagements of the 20th century ( and by this i rather mean the period of the two grand world wars, when large battles took place, which were entirely gone after the developement of long range missiles, or even cruise missiels, drones etc etc. - ). But in X, whoever builds up a fleet, actually desires those larger, if not epic "all in" engagements, rather then knocking out enemies from a safty of 80 km. Correct me if i´m wrong, but that´s what i like, and many others, i might imagine!
So, the solution might lie in reducing their shielding significantly, reducing their speed too ( none submarine during ww1+2 was ever able to outrun a decent warship, despite aircraft, but having a M7M with speads up to 100m/s, while some other ships are slow as a turtle, doesn´t make any sence to me ( i really understand that increasing the speed of M2/M1 ships even farther would mean a catastrophy, because of the X engine, but "back then", the largest ships were actually the fastest in the fleet, aside from torpedo boats, and everything smaller then a corvette class ship; 38 knots are recored for some Battleships, while most of the Frigates and Cruisers were at 25-35 knots - it might be the opposite in X games, but this kills the balace of fleet engagements completly, imo ).

Sorry for an sheer endless post, many of my examples are very plain, but everyone interested in such things can research it for himself to see that if speaking generaly they should make sence.

[Sairaf]

(Valid and relevant points to which I agree)

I agree with this person. These issues can all be resolved by XRM's purpose. Except, maybe, for the scripts. If we were to discuss the practicability of energy shields, I would suggest eliminating them from the game and putting the Hull Points on the stratosphere (Armor FTW). But let's stick to lowering either the number of shields or the type of shields. Would changing the container volume on M7Ms affect the type of shields and/or missiles they carry? If not, I vote for this solution.


Editing so I don't create another post: What does Hull Plating actually do? Is it there just for buy/sell, or it does something to your hull points?

[paulwheeler]

@ d_ka

Thanks for the well thought out and coherent post! It makes a change!


So to your points:

Regarding M8s (and M3Bs).

The problem here is the game's AI. X3 considers M8s to be the same as all other military ships in the game, including M2s, M1s etc - it considers them fighters.

The X3 combat AI was created for X:BTF - there were no M8s, M6s, M7s and very few capital ships. The game's AI makes no distinction between the classes. They all fly directly at the target and engage them with main guns - regardless of whether they actually have main guns or not. Missile turrets are addons after the fact - they don't exist as far as the AI piloting is concerned (which is why they never actually fire with vanilla TC AI ships - this functionality has only been added in AP).

So giving tomahawks a smaller range will just result in M8 suicide runs. While the player can at least order them to move to position rather than attack while their missile turret does its thing, AI M8s will just engage the enemy as if they were a fighter. They will get one volley off when they get in range, but will then continue towards the target on a standard attack run and will get killed due to their large size and slow speed.

Also, dumbfire missiles simply don't work in X3. The AI doesn't bother to line up with the target before it fires missiles. It would be OK on the first attack run, but as soon as the bomber turns it will be useless.

The only solution to this is to give their missiles a large range and hope they get off a few volleys before they get too near to the enemy.


Regarding M7Ms:

Yes I do agree with your suggestions to an extent. But they still suffer from the same issue as the M8s. The AI will just send them into battle as if they are fighters. With slow speeds and small shields, they will effectively be useless for the AI.


Really, the entire AI of X3 needs an overhaul - this overhaul is hopefully called X:Rebirth!

Using sea warfare as a template for X is a fair comparison, but you need to remember the extremely simplified AI in X3. All ships are fighters - all ships have main guns. That is what the AI applies to all ships, regardless of the class.


BTW - the combat AI is generally hard coded, so there is nothing the modding community can do. I'm open to suggestions regarding balancing ship abilities, but expecting me to fix the game's AI is just not going to happen.

[d_ka]

Well, i was not sure if you would even consider to rebalance those ships types even farther, but if you are open to suggestions, with all regards to the limited x3 engine, i could try to elaborate my rather loose ideas in smth. you could work with.

I. M8:
Well, the fact that all ships are treated as fighers in X3 actually is not an issue, on contrary, as i said earlier, the torpedo boats used to be really small and agile, and they were fighting on relatively close range distances. And there were plenty evidences when they were sunk even before they could launch their torpedos at all ).
Now more concrete:
1. Lets forget the dumbfire missiles; but one can make Tomahawks bit slower and/or "dumber" ( i mean their traking ability; their retargeting ability? do they got any? ). Also, the blast radius, which affects nearby fighters is quite op, since the main purpose of the missile is to strike against cap. ships, not to affect the area, right? ( i quit flying fighters in XRM when i have a choice, after beeing blasted away by those torpedos too many times, not even shot at me, but dealing collateral damage ).
-> on the other side, the damage output can be even increased, to make them a real threat, IF they can hit the target ( a few torpedo hits could take down even a larger warship; that´s why the fighters aka airplains - torpedo bombers in particulary, were so deadly against the Battleships ).
-> to give the M8´s a longer life span one could increase their shieldings, and/or their manouverability, if needed ( OTAS Auster has 3x200 shielding, for instance, which should keep it long enough alive till it empties it´s cargo hold, at least to half, won´t they? ).
-> As countermeasures one would be able ( or even forced ) to use fighter wings to intercept these ships, before they reach the 25km distance.
Any faster Corvette/Frigate ( finaly, the older, weaker 40mil. M7 ala Tiger would gain a new task in a fleet ). Let them pass freely, and launch their missiles, and you´ll have a huge problem, and not enough room to manouver, esp. in fleet formations.
Bisides: Torpedo boats normaly operated in groups, so they might be quite weak against a single large target on their own, but in a wing of 3-5 they would pose a very big threat. And if i take a look at the costs of these ships, they are quite cheap right now ( 5mil? ), while an M3+ fighter can cost up to 10 or more.

Oh, and one more thing: there were very different armament layouts used for Torpedo Boats on different war theaters. Some were equiped with additional anti air ( even flak cannons, not only MG ) defences, while other had a smaller caliber cannons to put a pressure on the ligher ships like Corvettes etc. So the surplus in agility, but esp. speed, and shields, would allow such loadouts ( each of the races could rather tend in one or another direction, so that a bomber would not match another, and allow the more variaty, and tactical usage when choosing among them, rathern then simply choosing the skin ). The M8 do not have to balance against each other, imo, because they aren´t ment to fight each other at all.

BTW: you´ve managed to let the Xenon AI to hold their fleet formations very well, but would it be possible to adjust the script so that the M8 would advance, covered by some escorts ( fighters, corvettes ), and try to hit the enemy capital ships ( preferably M1/M2 ). These for two obvious reasons:
a. to not bound the whole feet to the bombers and vice versa, and allow the fighter/bomber/probably Corvette interactions before the main lines collide in an epic fight
and
b. since the tomahawks would be even more powerfull, not to let own capital ships get in the way of those bombers causing devastating friendly fire

2. M3B
These little buggers are, compared to naval warfare, those torpedo bombers ( so, airplains, not boats ), which were quite easy to shoot down, esp. by interseptors ( fighter wings ), but are very, very danageours once the´ve closed in and unleashed their torpdo (s) - they could carry max. 2, iirc. In X3 they are the smaller versions of M8 right? do they have the same commands, or do they are more like M3 fighters, if that changes anything.
-> i´m not entirely sure, but does a game need another tomahawk firing ship, or would it, perhaps, make sence to arm them with smth. different? No volleys anymore, a single, or double tube, and smth. like hammerhead missile ( with adjusted damage output to make them even more scarier? ), rather then tomahawks? holding 2-4 of them totaly, they could perform a decisive move once a big ship´s shields are at a critical value ( or are striped of it´s shields - i play with high hull addon, so, sorry if my examples are not always generalized, but with it installed, the engagement with an enemy cap ship takes a very different ending - mostly your whole software + armaments beeing damaged, if you dare to take on them too easy ).

I will end this text without speaking of M7M´s right now, just to be sure, my explanations, and examples, make any sence generaly.

Thx for you attention, and the usual quick responding

[LameFox]

Out of curiosity, is there something unusual about the 'Xi' sector? It's marked as Unknown, but has been consistently, as long as I've seen it, spawning Khaak ships.

There were some (commonwealth) stations there initially, but they've all been wiped out by Khaak now. I don't think anyone defends it at all, and I'm not quite sure whether the stations respawn (they may just die before I see them).

[Sairaf]

Out of curiosity, is there something unusual about the 'Xi' sector? It's marked as Unknown, but has been consistently, as long as I've seen it, spawning Khaak ships.

There were some (commonwealth) stations there initially, but they've all been wiped out by Khaak now. I don't think anyone defends it at all, and I'm not quite sure whether the stations respawn (they may just die before I see them).

Universe Map says the asteroids are grav-locked to the broken jumpgate there. Gameplay-wise, it's an empty useless sector, except when it contains a XL Weapons Dealer $.$

[InFlamesForEver]

Out of curiosity, is there something unusual about the 'Xi' sector? It's marked as Unknown, but has been consistently, as long as I've seen it, spawning Khaak ships.

There were some (commonwealth) stations there initially, but they've all been wiped out by Khaak now. I don't think anyone defends it at all, and I'm not quite sure whether the stations respawn (they may just die before I see them).

Its the same with a lot of Unknown Sectors. There is one that is a racing sector, think its called Farnhams Legend but not too sure which has a consistent Khaak presence which is actually quite formidable if you're not prepared or you don't keep it down with a lot of visits.

[LameFox]

Universe Map says the asteroids are grav-locked to the broken jumpgate there. Gameplay-wise, it's an empty useless sector, except when it contains a XL Weapons Dealer $.$

But is there a reason the Khaak like it so much? I haven't seen them focus so much on any of the other Unknowns I've come across. Or maybe it's just coincidence, I'm not really sure how they decide what places to attack.

I'm considering a Dyson Sphere of weapon platforms just to let the buildings spawn and stay alive lol.

edit: I'll check on the racing one again, but I didn't see them there so often or in such force before. The station was even still alive last time I looked.

[Sairaf]

But is there a reason the Khaak like it so much? I haven't seen them focus so much on any of the other Unknowns I've come across. Or maybe it's just coincidence, I'm not really sure how they decide what places to attack.

Maybe because there is no resistance. Kha'ak like screwing around the X-Universe, as there seems to be a Cluster in almost every sector.

[A5PECT]

Kha'ak ships spawn in other sectors lots of times. The thing is that they don't last very long when they run across a race military patrol.

The ones that spawn in unknown, dead-end sectors like Xi can stay alive pretty much forever since military patrols never go there. Or they survive at least until the player comes along and blows them up.

[Sairaf]

Soooo... What's the deal with that Argon Military Transport ship? Editor says it's a M6, but game it's a M5... It has quite the odd, non X-Universe design...

[Okkim]

Anyone else using pirate guild with xrm? I have read that it is compatible with xrm though I have a couple of issues with it.

For some reason jumping to loomanckstrat and acquisition repository cause my game to crash. Disabling and enabling pirate guild seems to solve the issue for now.

Some mob bosses share same ship id and name in different systems and when you target one and use your map to look at another system where there is identical mob boss the map shows that you have also targeted that ship.

PG also places some mob bosses at the center of system that you can see on the map but they have no models and they can't be targeted.

[paulwheeler]

Soooo... What's the deal with that Argon Military Transport ship? Editor says it's a M6, but game it's a M5... It has quite the odd, non X-Universe design...

I assume you mean the ship called "military transport" and not the job called military transport? Its a hangover from XTM which Egosoft used as a basis for TC. Its a ship that has never been configured - it doesnt spawn anywhere and you cant buy it - just ignore it.

If you mean the job, then you should be seeing the AP added TP+ ships running those jobs.