[SCRIPT][AP/TC] Improved Races 2.0 v1.08 (6'th-June-12)

Jack08 · Post by **Jack08** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 03:29

aleks2098 wrote:Hmmmm - i still have some questions about relations. Im not sure which mod i used when i played last time - but probably it was some different mod as i remember that there were informations that we can see on log about invasions on systems etc... but maybe it had never happened and i just had i fine dream...

Anyway - relations between races :are there any wars between races? Because since the start of the game i didnt find any changes in relations between them. What is more - Teladi fought with Splits for some xenon system, Terrans attacked Argons one time etc - but there are no changes of relations.

What is strange - Paranid and split treat Terrans as enemies - and Terrans them not...

Unfortunatelly - up to this moment - i didnt find any changes in relations between races - i understand that i can change these relations - but it wasnt eaxtly point - i wanted to see some war lets say between some races - and now as i dont understand the point of these relations - are they only implemented "for us" - so we can set who is in war or not? As i still dont see any changes in relations - even that there are some wars between races fleets

First let me start by saying: huh?

I don't understand your post at all - Relations wont change dynamically, and not all races are going to constantly attack all other races, all races are not going to constantly attack all there enemies simultaneously either...

You set the relations in the hotwar editor, either import the AP or TC preset relations for defaults for TC or AP (depending on what you want, TC is argon and terran friendly, AP is hostile)

I don't know what you expect?

IR wont create a hundred battles at once - they take a couple of game hours to build fleets.

Dynamic relations are extremely difficult, its hard to make code act in a diplomatic fashion (just look at every RTS game out here with "diplomacy" its always cold logic that doesn't work). Its even harder in a game like X where you have so little you can take into account for diplomatic relations; Sure they could be programmed to change dynamically but these changes would end up being predicable and boring.

TouchMyNipple · Post by **TouchMyNipple** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 08:03

What he ^ said.
There is a major difference between X and any given game with diplomacy eiter moded-in or built-in. X is not an RPG of any sort. Implementing any diplomacy requires personality traits given to diplomacy subjects and, let's say, 500 other variables based on gameplay multiplied by some random nuber to make it at least not boring. And what diplomacy do you expect with eight races on the feild?
In fact i don't acree with Jack that game diplomacy is counted. Most of the time it is just r*******. Like a king makes the descision about going into full-scale war after flipping a coin. Not counting the troops and so on.
Diplomacy is just not the thing you want in X. This game is more like sims. With the exeption that you don't design the houses you build. Still there are ppl on this forum, who does.

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 11:39

ok, so if i understood properly - during game relations between races wont change? Am i right? Only we can change them..

As in other way - only "assault fleets" and "responses fleets" are part of war - and other ships are not affected because of these incrusions - so if Teladi and Split fight for some sector - in other sectors there is no any hostility between them?

Only "assault" and "response" fleets are part of war? am i right?

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So for example - only we can add some additional factor lets say - by "stating" that if there will be 3 sector ownership changes during lets say 3 hours of playing between 2 races - we can set their relation to "war" for next 3 hours (or something like that) - and if it will continue - we will extend it for next 3 hours, if it wont happen again - we can set relations to "peace" for next 3 hours....

anyway - i have no idea what will be impact of such action on merchant and transport ships and routes... It's rather not perfect solution anyway also...

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Speaking frankly - i didnt count on some very deep diplomacy - but only on some basic changes.

Anyway - is there any mod that immplements "changeable" relations?

Im almost sure that when i played X3:TC around 2-3 years ago i installed some mod that added feature that changed relations between races during game. Im almost sure - of course, it was a long time ago, maybe im mistaken - maybe i confused that mod with something else - but almost for 95% there was a mod which added dynamic relations and almost for sure there was some "menu" where we could see what were the current relations between races. I also remembet that ownership of systems could be changed there - but in different way - so after wiping out enemy ships and bases "automatic system" just automatically gave system to player who shooted last shot or who had most military ships in system.

Anybydy know about which mod im talking about? Is there any mod that applies "chagneable" (but not by our settings) relations?

Or maybe this impression that i played in something like that is just my imagination???

ps - i doubt that i could be mistaken. but now i dont want to duplicate topics on main page - as maybe somebody will tell me here about which mod im talking about...

ps 2 - or maybe it wasnt mod for TC but for Reunion? I dont remember now...

ps 3 - in my opinion even "random wars" from time to time will be fine... Better then none anyway...

Falcrack · Post by **Falcrack** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 19:59

It might be cool to have race relations that change dynamically that are simply a function of who is winning the war. For example, the Argon and Paranid are at war, Split and Boron are on the sidelines. If Argon start to dominate, the Split join in on the side of the Paranid. If the Paranid start kicking Argon butt, the the Boron join the war with their Argon allies. A diplomacy system whose primary purpose is to ensure that a race stays alive through the winning side losing allies or the losing side gaining allies. It would change dynamically as the war unfolds, so the war could be made never ending, due to the dynamically changes aliiances. The only way to break this cycle would be for the player to become sufficiently powerful on his own that his forces along with whatever race he aligns with is capable of overwhelming all the other races combined.

For example, you align with Argon against Paranid. With your help, Argon starts winning sectors. Split join in the fight, but Argon plus your forces can beat them both still. Even more Paranid/split sectors are lost, and the Teladi, in the interest of maintaining good trade between races, join the Paranid/Split alliance. You and the Argon continue to paste them. Finally, the Boron, old Argon allies though they are, decide they must end the alliance and join forces against the war monger Argon, so it is you and the Argon vs everyone else.

I didn't include the Terrans in this, but you get the idea.

Larxyz · Post by **Larxyz** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 20:30

This is possible, it just aint automatic. If you roleplay and thinking that the argon are winning the war for example. Then set the paranid to enemy to argon on the fly. After perhaps a minute of uppdating of status, they should start attacking any argons inside their sectors... Genocide!

Just requires you todo it manually.

This is atleast my experience.

... Or have i misunderstood how IR2 works?

im 16 RL days in and interestingly enough though, lately I'v seen more and more ships called "military" that dominate the battles. Way so more then the response or assult ships... strange but fun

question:
hmm, i might be jumping to conclusions, but shouldnt it be possible to use the True-relation code and adapt it to be used by the races and not only the player? or... would that have to be applied to ALL ships? *wince*

hmm, Is it just me or are the IR2 Carriers way more scary then the vanilla ones?

besty

Edit:
Oh,

New: X-Timelines Advanced Carrier Logic

nvm

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 20:35

ps - im not 'modder" - but i remember "old games" - i will not count on diplomacy based on something that we saw in "civilization 4"

. of course that authors didnt add diplomacy and its rather hard to be done (i think)

i only thought about some "basic" diplomacy like in first PC games in '90s

For example there was something like "Warlords" game - of course that this diplomacy was illusion - as AI attacked just everybody who was near.

But in my opinion it would be great - even if choices "who will we attack" would be based on some "die-casting" factors.

we are only small pilot - we dont have no know what trigerred war and what finished it.

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ps - i found mod that i played a long time ago - and as i remember it created something like basic "flexible" relations (but i dont remember how did it work

But i found that i played on it not in X3 Terran Conflict but this mod was for Reunion.

I think that there was some basic relations - but i could be mistaken..

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... a9e6396ddd

[S] [AL] [07.06.07] [X3 1.0.10] Race Invasions

ps - the very good element of this mod was that we got information who is going to invade which sector.

ps 2 - anyway - i remember also that there were many problems with this mod - for example to defend such sectors very strange ships appeared - one time i saw 2 Teladi M1 or M2 that appeared to defend sector without any fighter assistance - and were massacred almost in seconds...

ps - maybe "attacking" civilian and merchant ships is not perfect idea - but it will be fine only to know for example that one race is in war with another (for something)

Im only thinking - i have no idea how it should work to avoid "permanent" war when everybody is fighting with everybody..

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 20:41

i didnt see this: do you mean that ships with "military" status also attack other sectors?

I have never seen something like that - anyway - i spot many military argon ships in Black Hole Sun - there were very many of them - but they still dont want to invade nearest Xenon sector.

So you say that you saw military ships in battles? But only during defense? Or did you see them attacking other sectors also???

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Larxyz wrote:This is possible, it just aint automatic. If you roleplay and thinking that the argon are winning the war for example. Then set the paranid to enemy to argon on the fly. After perhaps a minute of uppdating of status, they should start attacking any argons inside their sectors... Genocide!
Just requires you todo it manually.

This is atleast my experience.

... Or have i misunderstood how IR2 works?

im 16 RL days in and interestingly enough though, lately I'v seen more and more ships called "military" that dominate the battles. Way so more then the response or assult ships... strange but fun

question:
hmm, i might be jumping to conclusions, but shouldnt it be possible to use the True-relation code and adapt it to be used by the races and not only the player? or... would that have to be applied to ALL ships? *wince*

hmm, Is it just me or are the IR2 Carriers way more scary then the vanilla ones?

besty

Edit:
Oh,
New: X-Timelines Advanced Carrier Logic
nvm

Larxyz · Post by **Larxyz** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 22:11

they were ships called military "something."
hmm, they were probably responding to a threat, but with the target in another sector from where they set out from.
They respond and interact with the assault and respons ships.

Still the military ships seems to be building in number. They will soon outnumber just about anything...

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 22:45

but you didnt see them in sectors other then these that belong to Argon? I think that "military" ships dont leave "home sectors" and do not attack any border sectors... Of course it will be nice if i will be mistaken...

Anything more happened in your game? I mean any race conquered more sectors? Or all these wars are only border?

ps - i dont think that such "genocide" that can happen if in potential mod some real war will start will be something "not acceptable" - im witness of instant "genocide" in Xenon Sector 472 - where transport ships try to get from Split Sector to Argon all the time and are massacred by Xenon ships... But they try all the time... Even that Xenon kill them all...

Larxyz wrote:they were ships called military "something."
hmm, they were probably responding to a threat, but with the target in another sector from where they set out from.
They respond and interact with the assault and respons ships.

Still the military ships seems to be building in number. They will soon outnumber just about anything...

Larxyz · Post by **Larxyz** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 23:05

Hey,
Have you changed your Hot war setting from the default ones?
have set split and boron to enemy myself, and it works fairly good

Yes, this is all in the split sector closest to the boron in the south eastern corner of the map. dont remember the sector name... the boron laid claim to it fairly early and quite afew stations has been built. Military ships are amassing in the last normal boron sector and then comes over every now and then and destroys split ships that try to recapture the sector. rather interesting to watch

I think it as something todo with the built-in RRF. but that is just a guess

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 23:15

i suppose that i will cast dies every 5 hours lets say to make some war or peace - it will be such "random" factor.

i will prefer if such wars will erupt even without any "logic" but because of "die factor" - i have no idea why but i prefer if something happens without my will.

Anyway - what is going there - i mean these ships i asked for - have you seen any not "respond" or "assault" Split ships that attacked Boron sectors?

Im interested if "military ships" can "invade" other sectors ...

Larxyz wrote:Hey,
Have you changed your Hot war setting from the default ones?
have set split and boron to enemy myself, and it works fairly good

Yes, this is all in the split sector closest to the boron in the south eastern corner of the map. dont remember the sector name... the boron laid claim to it fairly early and quite afew stations has been built. Military ships are amassing in the last normal boron sector and then comes over every now and then and destroys split ships that try to recapture the sector. rather interesting to watch
I think it as something todo with the built-in RRF. but that is just a guess

Calgor Grim · Post by **Calgor Grim** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 23:19

Smite me if this was answered somewhere but did I miss a page which said "Improved Kha'ak and Xenon are off the Not Fully Functional status and are in full working order"?

If so, sorry.

If not, I know I haven't gone insane, it's not a nudge more my sanity being checked.

jack775544 · Post by **jack775544** » Tue, 25. Sep 12, 23:40

Xenon only do small raids and Kha'ak don't do anything at all, so they are still not fully functional.

Jack08 · Post by **Jack08** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 00:02

Calgor Grim wrote:Smite me if this was answered somewhere but did I miss a page which said "Improved Kha'ak and Xenon are off the Not Fully Functional status and are in full working order"?

If so, sorry.

If not, I know I haven't gone insane, it's not a nudge more my sanity being checked.

Pretty much what jack775544 said, although the Xenon will respond to incursions in there space.

@All talking about diplomacy
Random dice rolls - Honesty? i would never implement something like that - as has already been said, Programming diplomatic relations is tricky and for it to appear even remotely real hundreds of variables need to be taken into account

i will prefer if such wars will erupt even without any "logic" but because of "die factor"

This is program code were talking about, Therese no such thing as no logic in a system made purely of logic. I cant program chaos without a source of entropy - and X has no true source of entropy.

Falcrack · Post by **Falcrack** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 01:10

Jack08 wrote:@All talking about diplomacy
Random dice rolls - Honesty? i would never implement something like that - as has already been said, Programming diplomatic relations is tricky and for it to appear even remotely real hundreds of variables need to be taken into account

That's why I suggested a simple method where the only choice of who allies with who is based on who is currently winning, in order to best maintain the status quo. It keeps everyone fighting without anyone getting steamrolled due to the current loser getting new allies and the current winner losing allies. A negative feedback inhibition model, if you will.

aleks2098 · Post by **aleks2098** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 03:16

Hmmm - i didnt expect "diplomacy" - i just thought about something that we can describe as "random factor" - lets say such situation - small shot triggers galactic war that can trigger old aliances and not-finished businesses. like in 1st world war.

i did it in my game - i just found "roll dice online" website:

http://www.random.org/dice/?num=2

and i made races relation (except goners which will have special relation)
and i stated that 6-6 will mean war. and 1-1 will mean friends.

then - after 30 tries 2x6:6 was rolled

Then i stated that for friends: each friend will have chance to enter to war to help his friend: 1-3 will mean that friend will enter war 4-6 that will not. And if 2 races wont be at war with themselves, but will have common enemy: i will roll for them and 1-3 will mean that they will become friends

It means that in my game Paranids and Teladi attacked Argon, Because there was already added that Terrans are at War agains Split and Paranids i updated this status, so now Terrans are at war with Paranids and Split. No new friends emerged because only 1x1:1 rolled and it was for Borons and Argons which were already friends

So i have my diplomacy

I have no idea what will happen next

as i dont know when i will find method of signing cease fires and peaces - but now my space started to be really dynamic

I thought about something easy and basic - when one random war can trigger next

In such situation every game will be different - as first random war will then direct other wars etc.

But im satisfied now. Anyway - i suppose that implementation of some basic rules of such system wont be very problematic and will be fine option

TouchMyNipple · Post by **TouchMyNipple** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 07:48

Jack08 wrote: I cant program chaos without a source of entropy - and X has no true source of entropy.

Can you sing that and take it to a bank? I ask because 2 carriers spread chaos as if they were forged purely of it!

Cronos988 · Post by **Cronos988** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 09:20

I get the feeling Response ships do not like flying anywhere they cannot jump?

I am asking because I am using XRM with advanced Universe and I get RRF ships just hanging idly in space. If so, could you tell me which script handles the jumping? It should be easy to modify it so it jumps to the nearest beacon (if any) and then flies manually.

Or just have them freejump where they want to go, but I think I prefer slow Response ships, to give the invaders some time.

Jack08 · Post by **Jack08** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 09:29

Cronos988 wrote:I get the feeling Response ships do not like flying anywhere they cannot jump?

I am asking because I am using XRM with advanced Universe and I get RRF ships just hanging idly in space. If so, could you tell me which script handles the jumping? It should be easy to modify it so it jumps to the nearest beacon (if any) and then flies manually.

Or just have them freejump where they want to go, but I think I prefer slow Response ships, to give the invaders some time.

You will not be able to modify it to obey the XRM universe rules so easily - to do so would require more then just changing the jump target; Core logic and control routines would also need changing - You would also diminish the effectiveness.

I highly advise letting IR run the way it was programmed as its programming is its balance, changing it to obey XRM universe rules will result in assaults winning 9/10 times which would be very bad for your universes health.

If you still after reading my warnings insist on modifying it - you will have to look into the logic scripts for responders ( xtl.xtlc.job.responder ) and perhaps the logic scripts for both shipyard and mb resonses (xtl.xtlc.job.mb & xtl.xtlc.job.sy) and probably the recon drone and reporting logic.

I cant remember exactly how it works because i haven't looked at the code in a while - and ive written and rewritten so many AL invasion scripts in the last year

- Sorry i cant be more specific.

Cronos988 · Post by **Cronos988** » Wed, 26. Sep 12, 09:54

Jack08 wrote:
Cronos988 wrote:I get the feeling Response ships do not like flying anywhere they cannot jump?

I am asking because I am using XRM with advanced Universe and I get RRF ships just hanging idly in space. If so, could you tell me which script handles the jumping? It should be easy to modify it so it jumps to the nearest beacon (if any) and then flies manually.

Or just have them freejump where they want to go, but I think I prefer slow Response ships, to give the invaders some time.
You will not be able to modify it to obey the XRM universe rules so easily - to do so would require more then just changing the jump target; Core logic and control routines would also need changing - You would also diminish the effectiveness.

I highly advise letting IR run the way it was programmed as its programming is its balance, changing it to obey XRM universe rules will result in assaults winning 9/10 times which would be very bad for your universes health.

If you still after reading my warnings insist on modifying it - you will have to look into the logic scripts for responders ( xtl.xtlc.job.responder ) and perhaps the logic scripts for both shipyard and mb resonses (xtl.xtlc.job.mb & xtl.xtlc.job.sy) and probably the recon drone and reporting logic.

I cant remember exactly how it works because i haven't looked at the code in a while - and ive written and rewritten so many AL invasion scripts in the last year - Sorry i cant be more specific.

Thanks, I already found it. Modifying it should be rather easy.

You say I need to modify the entire logic because IR assumes response fleets get to the target sector immediately?

So if they take time to fly there, the Logic just tries to send in more and more ships, which then turn around uselessly because they are too slow?

I am not convinced assault fleets will winn 9/10 times. XRM has strong militaries and they respond to assaults on their own. But the logic bit is a Problem.

Plus IR assumes fighters can jump, which they can't in XRM. So I have to give Fighters a free "set position" anyways.