Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[Deleted User]

I will just keep popping up and remind from time to time a point that was established here -> the requirement to be online or to turn steam on in order to play is apparently not steams but publishers

so while it is still bound to your account in a sense that you need steam to download, some games do not require turning it on to play, thus saying that steam is evil because you always need to turn on third-party app to play is not entirely true - and even in cases when it is, is not steams decision (well with the exception of Valve games I guess)

An account is still required. Your games will not run without the client, offline mode or not.

Blame whoever you want.

[Jumee]

An account is still required. Your games will not run without the client, offline mode or not.

Blame whoever you want.

you don't get it -> according to people here (anti-steam ones too) some games do not require to turn on steam (at all I'm not talking about offline mode I'm taking about an app (the steam client) that is turned off) after they have been installed

[DnBrn47]

A huge post

There is also a possibility that the internet could fail, yet you are still using it and probably are invested in it somehow. There's also a possibility that a meteorite could fall from space and bust your head open, but you still go outside everyday.

Steam is just another way to manage your licenses. Have you ever owned a boxed copy and lost an install CD or simply lost your CD-Key? You're screwed and have to buy another copy.... How about that...

All EULAs limit what you can do with your purchase, THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE FOR. There are license agreements and laws that limit all that you can do. You never own any game, you own a licensed copy of the game. Every game that has ever been made has stopped being supported at some point, so this whole idea you have going on is moot. It's inevitable at some point you probably won't be able to play the games you bought for WHATEVER reason.

Get over it, enjoy it while it lasts. I still don't get this whole mentality of let's boycott the game because it's going to be distributed in a way you don't like. Every time you buy a product it's a risk, stop trying to live in a bubble.

[Deleted User]

An account is still required. Your games will not run without the client, offline mode or not.

Blame whoever you want.

you don't get it -> according to people here (anti-steam ones too) some games do not require to turn on steam (at all I'm not talking about offline mode I'm taking about an app (the steam client) that is turned off) after they have been installed

As far as I was aware, launching a steam game triggers the client, even with launching the games own executable.

I just tried it with Civ 5.

Uninstalled steam. Civ 5 no longer launches.

Going to test more, see if I missed anything.

[Jumee]

An account is still required. Your games will not run without the client, offline mode or not.

Blame whoever you want.

you don't get it -> according to people here (anti-steam ones too) some games do not require to turn on steam (at all I'm not talking about offline mode I'm taking about an app (the steam client) that is turned off) after they have been installed

As far as I was aware, launching a steam game triggers the client, even with launching the games own executable.

I just tried it with Civ 5.

Uninstalled steam. Civ 5 no longer launches.

Going to test more, see if I missed anything.

not all games, (which is why I never heard of that until someone said in this thread), but there are some that allow you to be launched without turning on steam-client (you can probably search for Quases comment - I think he named a few) which means that launching steam client is not a requirement imposed by Valve but by individual game publishers

edit: I'll try to find that post, no promises though

edit 2: found it:

Eufloria or Gratuitous Space Battles for example work without running the Steam client in the background and without the need to lock into your account.

[dizzy]

Analyzing the move to require Steam for X3 games is a complicated matter. There so many aspects to it. I hope to keep it short (heh, who am I fooling).

Steam is many things in one:

• it is an online shop
  it is a digital distribution platform with automated patch distribution
  it is a heavyweight client that can connect players in multiplayer, community features, etc
  it is an always online DRM (offline mode offers temporary breaks from that, but it's still required for _every_ install of the game, can't install from backups without Steam connection)
  it is an API to the features above

The DRM problem

In their FAQ Egosoft said that the online shop, digital distribution platform and API were the main reasons to go this way, it provided a larger market and an easier to use patch system. The larger market argument I don't buy simply because you can get even larger market by offering Steam alongside other options, Amazon Game Downloads for example is a pretty popular (DRM agnostic) optionn, by offering the product just on Steam they are actually limiting themselves to that market so it makes no sense to say this is done to get access to a larger market. For the patch system, as a software engineer, I can understand their point. I'm only sad that it's so costly for them to produce standalone patches so they have to decide on using Steam just because of that.

If Steam were to keep just to the first few points (be an online game shop and distribution platform) while not requiring any DRM it would be better (but not perfect). As I understand some old games on Steam are already this way, they can run from their executable which doesn't run the Steam client. That's one good step. Another would be to make it possible to make local backups of the game that allow one to install it without Steam interference. At that point, Steam may be used as a convenience and for the initial activation/download, just like Amazon Game Downloads (which is just a digital distribution platform, they actually recommend that you backup your downloaded install kit that can be used for installations without involving Amazon).

Egosoft has said that if Valve goes bankrupt they will release a Steam free executable, of course that assumes that Egosoft hasn't gone bankrupt in the meantime... Also, with bankruptcy things are not black or white. The bankruptcy judge has almost unlimited power in how to manage the company's assets to pay its debtors. There was a recent news how a bankruptcy judge allowed to sell the private user information that wasn't allowed to sell according to the bankrupt company TOS, effectively changing the contract under which users gave their information in the first place. So don't be so quick to point out easy solutions (ex. all Steam games become available without DRM, yeah right) or point at existing (pre-bankrupt) TOS, promises, etc, they have no value in the case of bankruptcy.

Don't keep all your eggs in the same basket or Steam may stop access to a game for any kind of violation of their hefty TOS while playing some other game on the same account.

Did you know that you are in violation of the Steam TOS if you play 2 different games at the same time, registered with the same Steam account, and thus may lose access to all your game library purchased on the same Steam account? One way to play games using the same Steam account is to (ab)use offline mode. But since it's a violation of their TOS, you're risking your game library. Notice that the same thing would be perfectly allowed with DRM free or normal disc check DRM. It's only an issue raised by Steam DRM and their TOS.

You may say that these things don't happen, I will say it's enough if it ever happens to you. I know at least 2 coworkers that had problems with their Steam account which were very painfully (as in weeks) resolved by Valve. In all that time they didn't have access to any of their _other_ games.

Solution: just create a separate Steam account for every game you really care about. This way, you should not lose access to them all because you violated some fine print in a large TOS while playing some single player game.

Impact.

It's hard to say what the impact will be, in terms of sales. Some people have said that those who don't like Steam are a minority. To the general gaming population, definitely so. To the general Steam gaming population, obviously so (most of these people would not be on Steam). To the Egosoft existing customers... not so obvious, I would say. This is not obvious first because Egosoft's existing customers market is different from the general gaming population and second because these "hardcore" gamers that everyone likes to marginalize actually matter more (in terms of money, see below).

Quick question: how many people here have bought one X game multiple times because of a combination of factors like: oh, it has all the recent patches in plus it's DRM free and I get a cozy feeling for supporting this cool European small developer that releases DRM free games and free patches 3 years after the game was released.

So Egosoft got a lot more money from me (and as far as I can tell, plenty of others on this forum) because it was convenient to get a bulk of updates integrated in the latest DVD release and because it was DRM free than if they were to release on Steam. If they were to release on Steam, even if we assume that I would buy it once, I would have no reason to buy the game again, I'm getting all the patches from Steam anyways, plus they force me to use this one online distributor which is not nice so I feel less good about them. So, I will stop advertising Egosoft about how cool they are on the gaming lists and forums where DRM issues or space simulation games are being discussed.

So, when you lose one such customer you are not losing _one_ sale, you are losing a couple of direct sales plus all indirect sales as these people spread the word. By that argument these people matter more.

It's been said that DRM critics are very vocal, when compared to the general population, that may be true, but that also means they are vocal in general. These same vocal critics of every DRM are vocal supporters of DRM free games and companies, thus those companies get word by mouth support from these vocal folks.

Conclusion.

Will I buy X Rebirth? If it's Steam only, maybe, when it will be a sale for <$5 so that at least I won't feel like I'm losing money if/when I'll lose access to the game for whatever reason. There are way too many good DRM-free games (mostly because of they are old and patches had removed DRM) to care so much about X: Rebirth to buy into the restrictive Steamworks DRM for any serious money.

[Slashman]

Heh...what do you know, I just shut down Steam and ran Gratuitous Space Battles without the Steam client...it ran perfectly fine. I didn't even know it was one of the games that could do that.

I do not share Slashmans opinion or yours.

Steam may well work for Slashman. It may well work for you. That does not imply it works for me. Nor should it imply it works for anyone who is unaware of what account binding systems set out to achieve. And I truly do not care one jot how much it benefits the developer whilst it hinders me.

I'm assuming you mean 'it works for me' in the philosophical sense that you don't want to use it and not that it doesn't actually work on your system.

Contrary to what you may be thinking, I don't have a problem with someone not wanting to use Steam if they don't like it. That's their choice. However, assuming that there are some untold millions of people who feel as strongly as you do is something else entirely.

Statements implying that average gamers do not care about 3rd party account binding systems that apply to all, or in fact just don't care as much about a game, or are simply irrelevant is a disservice though.

Is it really? Skyrim continues to be one of the best selling titles on Steam week after week(despite many good titles on sale for more than 50% off). Its price hasn't dropped and its doing well enough that Bethesda is throwing an unprecedented amount of work into supporting it on the PC after launch with both the Steam workshop, the creation kit and adding new features for free apart from any DLC they have planned for release. It's still the 3rd most played title on Steam today with close to 50K players at peak 5 months after its launch.

I have tried that backup facility, have you? It backs up a copy of the game that still requires steam to use, therefore it is not a backup.

It worked like a backup for me when my hard drive crashed. I was able to restore over 30 of my games that I really didn't want to go through the hassle of downloading again.

I do NOT hold that I will be playing and replaying this game under any circumstances, because I simply will not be purchasing.

Again, this is your choice and its a perfectly valid one. You're welcome to miss out on any game you want for whatever reason you think is valid, just don't assume that the rest of the world will fall in line and pick up your cause.

Please name me any other product under Gods sky that you would buy with such a risk.

There is no product in the world that is guaranteed to work forever. I have a copy of X-Wing Alliance that I can't play because it simply doesn't work on more recent nVidia graphics cards. That game isn't even that old. No fixes for it from Lucas Arts or nVidia. So until GOG gets it and I buy another copy all I can do is look at it and smile wistfully. That was a totally account-free game in a box with a disk.

Whether you care if something benefits a developer or not, the developer has to look at what benefits them going forward. Some developers are going to go with Steamworks, its inevitable. Some won't. Egosoft happens to be one of the ones who will be for their next title. Don't buy from them if you think they don't deserve the money, but at the same time, do not expect that some sort of worldwide revolution of gamers will rise up and reject Steam and every other account-binding game system if they aren't having major issues with them.

[Michael5188]

There is also a possibility that the internet could fail, yet you are still using it and probably are invested in it somehow. There's also a possibility that a meteorite could fall from space and bust your head open, but you still go outside everyday.

Steam is just another way to manage your licenses. Have you ever owned a boxed copy and lost an install CD or simply lost your CD-Key? You're screwed and have to buy another copy.... How about that...

There is no product in the world that is guaranteed to work forever. I have a copy of X-Wing Alliance that I can't play because it simply doesn't work on more recent nVidia graphics cards. That game isn't even that old. No fixes for it from Lucas Arts or nVidia. So until GOG gets it and I buy another copy all I can do is look at it and smile wistfully. That was a totally account-free game in a box with a disk.

THANK YOU.

Seriously this whole concept of physical media somehow being permanent is just ludicrous. Or this idea that "you don't really own the game" being an issue. Seriously, how does that effect my gaming?

I've got countless games on floppy discs I can't play, as well as some on cds that simply don't work anymore cause I guess the cd randomly went bad. Shucks, oh well! I've done a lot of moving and misplaced game boxes with cd keys, can't play those games either.

I've had dvds go bad, vhs as well. Physical media, despite what people these days think for some reason, is very, very temporary. Steam/Valve could go under and lose everyone's games in 10 years, and that would give my games on steam a longer life than my games on disc had.

People can argue and boycott and complain about Steam all they want. I'm gonna go by a game that's 75% off and have fun.

[Nagittchi]

After playing a bit of Shogun 2 I found a loading screen quote I quite like:

"I never do verbal battle with others, since even if I win an argument I can't change the other person's way of life." - Sakamoto Ryoma

After putting in your two cents, continuing to argue here is like trying to convince an American Democrat to become Republican and vice versa. But people love arguing and "debating" for the sake of doing it, so...

[dizzy]

THANK YOU.

Seriously this whole concept of physical media somehow being permanent is just ludicrous. Or this idea that "you don't really own the game" being an issue. Seriously, how does that effect my gaming?

I've got countless games on floppy discs I can't play, as well as some on cds that simply don't work anymore cause I guess the cd randomly went bad. Shucks, oh well! I've done a lot of moving and misplaced game boxes with cd keys, can't play those games either.

I've had dvds go bad, vhs as well. Physical media, despite what people these days think for some reason, is very, very temporary. Steam/Valve could go under and lose everyone's games in 10 years, and that would give my games on steam a longer life than my games on disc had.

People can argue and boycott and complain about Steam all they want. I'm gonna go by a game that's 75% off and have fun.

This is not the same thing, you can still do any of the following to run any of those games:
- find floppy drives on ebay to play the old disks and back them up into newer forms
- find older video cards/PCs to play the old games or run them through emulators

It is true that there are plenty of reasons that something may stop working. But those reasons come from a real limitation of the technology which has always alternatives because they are not locked in. They do not come from an artificial cryptographically based (I assume the Steam auth is hard to crack and emulate) limitation that once its gone you basically have no options left. It's not like 10 years from now, you can go on ebay and buy older "Steam server access" so that you can play your old Steam games with it.

And no, "promises" that there will be a Steam free version if Valve goes bankrupt don't comfort me, such promises are not legally binding (for a bankruptcy judge) and they assume that Egosoft will still be around. If it is expensive for Egosoft to _continuously_ support non-Steam versions then I suggest that they only do it once in a while. Every time they have a MAJOR update (say once per year), also work on a DRM free version, released as a DVD or if that's too expensive for them, through Amazon Downloads or some other digital distributor that is DRM agnostic (ie that doesn't add their own DRM to the downloaded install kit or play executable). But it largely depends on how tightly integrated is the Steamworks API into the new game.

I would have absolutely no problem with the "option" of Steam, as an "option" it is a great service, would make all the Steam people happy and give Egosoft access to a larger market, win-win. My problem is with the exclusivity.

There's also the issue of retailer competition. Now I don't know about the publishing contract of these games and Steam but does it allow the original publisher to set the price as they wish and does it allow competition from different sellers? Like you can still get some Steam games from different sellers (usually the DVD boxed ones), so there is competition and pricing wars (which is good for me, the customer). If the game will only be available through the Steam _shop_ then there is no competition on the seller side.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

There's also the issue of retailer competition. Now I don't know about the publishing contract of these games and Steam but does it allow the original publisher to set the price as they wish and does it allow competition from different sellers? Like you can still get some Steam games from different sellers (usually the DVD boxed ones), so there is competition and pricing wars (which is good for me, the customer). If the game will only be available through the Steam _shop_ then there is no competition on the seller side.

Yes and yes. The publisher sets the price, not Steam. The publisher is free to release their game to alternative retailers be they shops or alternate Digital download services. If the game is only available through the Steam shop then that was the publishers decision to do so not Steams.

[perkint]

Yes and yes. The publisher sets the price, not Steam. The publisher is free to release their game to alternative retailers be they shops or alternate Digital download services. If the game is only available through the Steam shop then that was the publishers decision to do so not Steams.

Do you know that for sure? I would have thought it was in Steams interest to tie publishers into an exclusive deal if they could. And I don't see a reason why Steam would not be able to set the prices, so long as the publisher receives a payment meeting a pre-agreed amount (or minimum) per sale. That way Steam could sell games cheap to increase user base (or whatever reason they wished) and subsidise payments to the publisher. That's the sort of thing I'd expect varied depending on the individual contract...

My main issues with Steam are that is a reduction in comparison with what we've had before (specifically talking about Egosofts habit in the past of always removing all DRM eventually, which has been discussed before in here and seems unlikely to happen with SteamWorks) and Steams ability to enforce an updated EULA on you, without any changes to the game.

Not worried about the game's EULA being enforced. Have no issues with that. Don't really like the fact that a third party EULA could be updated without providing any functionality I want (personally Steam offers no extras that *I* want for X games) and my only choices are to accept or lose access to the game.

As I've said before tho, it doesn't stop me using Steam and it certainly won't stop me buying Rebirth Doesn't mean I like it tho!

Tim

[Jumee]

specifically talking about Egosofts habit in the past of always removing all DRM eventually, which has been discussed before in here and seems unlikely to happen with SteamWorks

afaik this is still possible -> because there are games on steam with no DRM (at least steam-based one) and also because Gabe Newel himself said that they can make a game not require steam-authentication (this was around the time HL-2 came out I think and he said that they tested it [cancelling authentication] and it works) BUT of course they cant enforce it*

*this matters in an unlikely case where Valve goes bankrupt as they can cancel the DRM from their games but to cancel it from others they would need publishers permission

[Slashman]

This is not the same thing, you can still do any of the following to run any of those games:
- find floppy drives on ebay to play the old disks and back them up into newer forms
- find older video cards/PCs to play the old games or run them through emulators

At an additional cost to the player. In the case of X-Wing Alliance, running through an emulator does no good. I'd need to buy an older video card and a system to run it in.

You also assume that if the worse were to happen, that there wouldn't be some kind of solution from the gaming community itself in the form of an emulator or similar tool to allow the games to run.

History has kind of shown that there is no real vanishing of data where the internet is concerned. In that sense, I'm not particularly worried about losing my games.

Even if worse comes to worst and I need to re-buy a few games that I really can't let go, I'm going to be paying less for them from GOG or Impulse or GMG. If the developers and publishers are still around, its unlikely that they'll want to lose the opportunity to sell games that still have a market and if they aren't, then GOG will probably be an option or some similar service.

Do you know that for sure? I would have thought it was in Steams interest to tie publishers into an exclusive deal if they could. And I don't see a reason why Steam would not be able to set the prices, so long as the publisher receives a payment meeting a pre-agreed amount (or minimum) per sale. That way Steam could sell games cheap to increase user base (or whatever reason they wished) and subsidise payments to the publisher. That's the sort of thing I'd expect varied depending on the individual contract...

Its been both stated by Valve and it is also on their corporate website FAQ for Steam and Steamworks. Of course they could be lying.

Steam doesn't appear to force developers to do anything. They can suggest, but not force.

The most I have heard them do is turn down games that they think won't sell due to content or gameplay. As a store, they have a right to screen stuff before they sell it. Apart from that I know of one game that they chose to stop selling due to extremely poor sales. That was corroborated from the developer's own website, who cited that the game was never a big seller in the first place.

From hearing interviews with developers who have used Steam, I have yet to hear of one who has said that they had a bad experience. The attitude from Valve seems to be totally different to the attitude of most publishers. Again, probably due to the way the company is setup and the fact that it doesn't answer to shareholders etc.

You can check out the information on Steam and Steamworks on their corporate pages. I've posted links earlier up in the thread to documents and FAQs. That was when we were trying to determine just what the terms for Steamworks use were.

[perkint]

<Quote and reference to split posts removed. Alan Phipps>

specifically talking about Egosofts habit in the past of always removing all DRM eventually, which has been discussed before in here and seems unlikely to happen with SteamWorks

afaik this is still possible -> because there are games on steam with no DRM (at least steam-based one)

There are, but in some cases (eg early versions of Skyrim) it appears to be a mistake and is quite probably to be patched back in. And I was specifically speaking about SteamWorks games, not just Steam. It would take a fair amount of hacking to remove any SteamWorks API links (obviously depends on how much they have been used) and it has been discussed before (in one of the previous 100+ page threads) and no-one was able to think of any SteamWorks games that fit that description...

[Cut drivel... ]

Well I'm not privy to the financial details of individual publishing deals but that seems to be the way they do things in general from what I understand from the comments of several small developers.

Also, yes, developers are not tied exclusively to Steam. Quase gave an example of one http://www.strangeloopgames.com/

Again, Steam yes - but SteamWorks? Don't really see how a game would ever likely have a version released with that patched out. Might do, but only if they're not using much of the extra API facilities, but that means going SteamWorks in the first place wasn't really offering much of an advantage!

And, of course, just because they don't always, doesn't mean they don't ever! Bit of a moot point anyway - unless someone from Deepsilver cares to comment, which I suspect, somehow, ain't gonna happen

Tim

[Slashman]

Again, Steam yes - but SteamWorks? Don't really see how a game would ever likely have a version released with that patched out. Might do, but only if they're not using much of the extra API facilities, but that means going SteamWorks in the first place wasn't really offering much of an advantage!

It may be presently unprecedented. It's also probably contingent on why Egosoft patched out the DRM in the first place with the other X games.

Since I wasn't here when they did it for the other games, I can only assume it had something to do with the limited installs of the other games in addition to the disk in the drive requirement.

I personally think that once a game reaches a certain age and sales have dwindled far enough below a certain point, then the Steamworks requirement probably won't matter. If you're done patching a game and on to the next one, then you may have no more use for the more tied-in Steamworks features. At that point, patching it out is a one-time thing and you never look back at the game again.

Of course, we all thought TC was done getting updates too until AP reared its head. It's probably safe to say that Reunion won't get any further updates, though.

With Deepsilver responsible for distributing Skyrim in Europe, I'm a bit doubtful that we'll see Steamworks integration patched out in the near future. Things like Steam Cloud, Achievements, possibly a mod workshop etc. may not encourage them to get rid of Steamworks integration very quickly.

The other thing is that we still don't know enough about Rebirth to really get an idea of what they are doing in terms of integrated features that may be built with Steamworks in mind. But they could change all that with some timely news!!! *Hint Hint* *Nudge Nudge*

[CBJ]

Right, that's more than enough of that. This thread will now be locked for 24 hours during which time no discussion of Steam will take place. When people have had a chance to cool down, this thread will be split and offending posts removed before being reopened. I will be asking moderators to review the posts that have resulted in this lock and issue formal warnings where necessary.

[Alan Phipps]

Thread unlocked. Most offending posts have been split and locked. Some formal warnings have been recorded and some informal cautions issued as appropriate. Do not allow this thread to degenerate into personal attacks again.

[Mopy]

Alright, can I change my vote?

I originally voted activation only. Having had to use Steam for another game I see the improvement has been vast since I last used it many years ago. I'm not in to the community bits, but the mod workshop, built in screenshot manager thingy, the small footprint and availability of offline mode is nice.

I wonder just how many things I can boycott. I've already got two of the biggest publishers on my list, one due to politics, one due that which shall not be named.

I'm confident that as unlikely as it is, if anything goes wrong with steam for the long term, Egosoft will continue to support the game. Any other games company apart from maybe CDProjekt, I think I'd think twice about that.

Still, I will be buying a boxed version, but if it wants to update itself through Steam then fine. So I change my vote from 'activation only' to 'yes'.

[angrytigerp]

My last post in this thread (and you can take that to the bank), as I now realize that I have been spinning my wheels for the past few weeks. I will first take the opportunity to apologize to anyone personally offended by my remarks. That said, I will reiterate what I think are really the main points of this thread:

1.) People who 'support' Steam (use it) and those who are against it (intentionally don't use it) are pretty much set in their opinions, and I think we can agree to disagree. The former are going to be 'biased' only so far as the majority of them have had pleasant experiences with the service, while the latter are 'biased' so far as they are unable to use Steam efficiently (internet speed, etc.) or fear the ramifications of the vague legalese. There exists a small group of those who grudgingly use Steam for certain titles, and I would posit that they are between the two rather than in either camp (they can't be FOR Steam because they have had issues or are ONLY using it for certain games not otherwise available, but they also can't profess to be AGAINST Steam on an ethical level (e.g. protesting Valve's license) because they have agreed to it.)

2.) From a purely factual standpoint, Pro-Steam individuals encourage the use of Steam because of a laundry list of community features, centralization of one's gaming library, high download speeds for a digital service (provided you have good internet), and common sales bringing down the prices of games.

Anti-Steam individuals discourage the use of Steam because of its digital nature (to the extent that even buying games in-box may still be a problem for a Steamworks game, as the user will still have to download any day-1 patches before playing the game, even in offline mode) and the ambiguity of an account holder's possession of his/her games (e.g. if Valve goes out of business, there is no guarantee they will maintain access to their games).

With these concerns addressed, it is up to the undecided X fan who has never used Steam before to choose whether or not to use Steam for X-Rebirth, given its Steam-required nature as far as we are aware. Each group ends their responsibility there; assumptions from either side that the potential new Steam user is incapable of making up their own mind is unfair to them.

3.) Baseless claims have no place in an open debate such as this. This goes for both sides -- I will admit I was at fault for this, as I often just said that I would trust Valve to release authentication if they went down, etc. This is opinion, NOT OBJECTIVE FACT. Similarly, anti-Steam individuals should avoid inflammatory claims regarding Steam's business practices or relationships with their licensees, as we are not privy to that information; as seen above, attempting to use this as factual proof of Steam's faults only leads to ad hominem and personal conflict.

4.) MOST IMPORTANT ONE! Everyone should please remember that this is not a Steam thread, this is an X Rebirth thread. I think we've pretty much settled all there is to both pro- and anti-Steam arguments, so I think the subject is best left in the dust. Both sides feel the need to keep repeating themselves, which only serves to reignite a discussion settled dozens of pages ago in the old thread. Shouting louder does not make your unproven claim any more accurate.

That said, my last post in this thread will be to support X-Rebirth on Steam, as personally it is advantageous for me; I also will reassert that I do not care if, and in fact believe it may be better if, Rebirth is distributed in a non-Steam manner.

Thanks, and have a good day/night all.