Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[natha]

@TEKing66, I agree here. Maybe not broadband, if you install from DVD, but you sure need an internet connection. I was using steam with an ISDN 64K and i had no real issues ... until an extra large patch or add-on was released, then it becomes a real pain, because you cannot play while updating. With a bad dial-up its impossible. You'll eventually quit using it, from frustration.

That is why CD Project's way was applauded. What way you wish? Get it!
The thing is that CD Project is the producer/developer (CD Project RED) and GoG owner. Makes things quite easy but (i don't know if you read the gaming news) CD Project claims that it lost millions from piracy due to the fact that everyone could just upload the non-DRM copy from GoG, doesn't need to be a real cracker-coder or whatever. So i'm not sure the will repeat it. We'll see.

The claim that Ego "sold out" is as ridiculous as it sounds. Those are business things. It is said over and over that if a name like Zenimax chooses steam then must be there something, even for them. Obviously a smaller developer than bethesda will have multiple gains ...

PS: i need to apologize for my English, i'm sure i'm causing headaches to the native English-speaking people

PS2: Origin deletes inactive accounts? I seriously doubt that. Thats too much even for them. But i personally know that perma-bans is real. And the fact is that if you registered your game, even if is single-player, you;re banned from it too. So if you use Origin be aware that forum bad language can have severe penalties. Judge - Executor and a Priest in one packaging. Yeah. ( the yeah is the paranid one )

[Slashman]

Neither does Steam have in its EULA that inactive accounts will lose their games or access to download their games after a certain period has passed.

Origin does? seriously? I need to log in into origin then, haven't been there in ages :/, but that is just to much to be honest

They don't say how long, and I've yet to see it happen, but it is there from what I recall.

Here it is.

They may have tried to backpedal out of it if you read the update in the article, but they never removed it in the EULA.

[quase]

I will always speak out for the best developer and publisher CD Projekt. This is why I would like to set some things clear. I cannot see this false interpretation of CD Projekts words over and over again. If you would have read the interview and not just an excerpt where they "complained about lost millions" you would not say this and see that quoting this was out of context and a false interpretation of what has actually been said.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/29/inter ... -worth-it/

These numbers were only estimations and according to the top download list the torrent networks publish every year, the number of downloaded copies of the Witcher 2 did not even get it into the Top20 torrent downloads. The list is ruled by Call of Duty of course with about 4 million torrent download for 2011 if I recall the news correctly.

Anyway, this was an older interview with CD Projekt, but they just recently made clear again that they will never use DRM for any future title. I trust CD Projekt if they say this because they are to be trusted on that one, unlike Ubisoft, EA or even Deep Silver.
What the publishers need to come aware of and what CD Projekt and some others have already successfully proven, is that it is not about fighting a losing battle against piracy, but it is the main thing to care for people who are actually willing to spend money for the product. Here I come back to Egosoft/ Deep Silver and there Steam-only policy which is indeed not caring for the customer, at least not for all customers there could be. They are limiting themselves in the possible number of paying players.

[natha]

I have the witcher 2 box right behind me, and it had DRM. They remove it with the second patch. Only GoG digital version was non-DRM from the beginning.

if they not complaining, why their CEO said all those things? To make impression? Well he did.

As i said i'm with them. Its the best to be able to offer solutions for everyone. Want it on steam? get it. Want retail pack ( and an old school that, with guides etc, great stuff) get it. Want to avoid day-1 DRM? Ok (they remove it 1 month later lol, so i get the boxed version and no DRM at the end )
But they are producers/developers/gog owners. They wanted to do it, and they did the right stuff to get some fan-boys on the way. Which includes me.

But there's not everything like that. Do you believe that egosoft can call deepsilver and say, "we want no-DRM or we quit". I doubt it. Space sims are not in fashion any more. I would prefer to see my favorite installment with any DRM than not at all.

[quase]

That is the difference. I would rather like to see a crash of the whole industry than supporting the system the way it is right now. What is one franchise compared for the greater good? What is my 60+something games worth Steam-account lost in the light of the greater good? Close down Steam and let's all start from the scratch again.

As for the interview. You did read the interview I linked, didn't you? He was asked to give some numbers so he estimated some numbers. Wrong estimation on the spot a bit maybe and he did also surely not "complain" about loses with those numbers. In fact he said he was pleased with the numbers sold.

The Witcher 2 box was published by Namco Bandai who insisted on the DRM. CD Projekt removed the DRM within 2 weeks after the release and even fought of the complains and legal action of the parasitic publisher. I see no reason why Egosoft could not do so as well, except for their publisher of course. The problem is that the publishers represent an industry and ... well read the damn interview with CD Projekt! He has a lot good things to say.

[Slashman]

That is the difference. I would rather like to see a crash of the whole industry than supporting the system the way it is right now. What is one franchise compared for the greater good? What is my 60+something games worth Steam-account lost in the light of the greater good? Close down Steam and let's all start from the scratch again.

Right. And all you need to do now is to sell that concept to about 40 million gamers who would lose their games on Steam so we could 'start from scratch'. Good luck to you!

[quase]

Yeah, selfish ignorant fools they are. They fail to see the greater good for all of us, but only because they can not see the light in the dark. You need to see the light to know the greater good and the better future for all of the gamers.

After all these lights at the end of the tunnel may as well be the headlights of an incoming train. We will see.


Disclaimer: All philosophically interpretable analogies in the this post are in no way meant offending to anyone and simply represent the unstable mindset of the writer of this post. The writer can not be made responsible for inappropriate answers to this post and twists of thoughts in your head. No animals were harmed in the production of this post! At least none that were not already dead and on a plate.

[natha]

that was a good one.
My friend nobody dreams something like that than me. I have more than 250 boxes behind me, i love the smell of plastic cases, of newly printed manuals and the cloth maps and other useless crap that used to put inside. Somewhere in the way, all those things gone. I still prefer the boxed versions (unfortunately they call them collector's edition now and they cost a small fortune) and i have only bought stuff on steam on sales. (new AAA titles cost 50€ on steam=no f**** way).
But we're minority and we must face it. ( actually we are old, but lets avoid it ) When i saw that Shogun 2 will be Steam only i said "what? but why?". I cried a little in some forums and then faced the truth. Most people love the achievement and other things like that. But mainly i realized that Creative Assembly could bring its numerous balancing patches more easily at the customer, they could use all that cloud thingy to allow people co-op at battles and other. I couldn't care less for that, but i'm not alone in the world. To expect that they we'll make a version for me is unrealistic, so i bought the retail and say and "thank you" at the end.
Next time at Deus Ex i said nothing. I bought it, played it and kept my happines, because those are games. Ok its an industry now, but things that worth playing ... just worth playing ...

and after that delirium, lets go back to topic

[angrytigerp]

Yeah, selfish ignorant fools they are.

Yes, the millions of people who would lose hundreds of dollars worth of purchases for no other reason than because you can't tolerate the new paradigm are the selfish ones.

that was a good one.
My friend nobody dreams something like that than me. I have more than 250 boxes behind me, i love the smell of plastic cases, of newly printed manuals and the cloth maps and other useless crap that used to put inside.

I'm convinced 90% of the "LOL I LOVE THE NEW BOX SMELL" people are just bullshitting. It's such bad hyperbole, and obvious as well. I understand wanting the hard copy as a sort of reminder of "I own the license to play this game", but don't stoop to exaggerations like that.

[Deleted User]

That is the difference. I would rather like to see a crash of the whole industry than supporting the system the way it is right now. What is one franchise compared for the greater good? What is my 60+something games worth Steam-account lost in the light of the greater good? Close down Steam and let's all start from the scratch again.

Right. And all you need to do now is to sell that concept to about 40 million gamers who would lose their games on Steam so we could 'start from scratch'. Good luck to you!

It's not about luck. Threads like this can be really valuable to educating people about exactly what restrictions are imposed on them when they decide to buy a digital product.

It may take a while for the truth to sink into publishers minds, but I believe it will happen eventually. I personally will be so glad when I finally start to hear that it is not my lack of ability to embrace the forced change to account binding system like steam - claimed to be the future of gaming - but just the publishers chasing an old broken system.

In the meantime, I won't be purchasing.

The link quase posted is most encouraging.

Here is one of my own, five years old but it is still very valid.

http://www.zdnet.com/news/why-drm-wont-ever-work/152278

[exogenesis]

That begs a hamburger pickle analogy. At least we can take them out if we don't want them. They'd sell a lot less burgers if they welded in the pickles, as in the final analysis while some people will grow to like them, not everyone can stomach them.

Pickle fans might argue that not having to employ the guys that put the pickles in outweighs the lost custom, and it might even lower the costs for the broader majority of pickle lovers.

Fortunately if they adopt Pickle Rights Management, there are plenty other places to eat for those who were excluded. I guess that's where the analogy fails. There is no alternative to Steam, it's simply game over.

Enjoyed that, made my day

Hope we'll end up getting pickle-free burgers at some point tho,
preferably with a free diet coke add-on.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

It's not about luck. Threads like this can be really valuable to educating people about exactly what restrictions are imposed on them when they decide to buy a digital product

While also educating people about exactly what is not imposed on them when they decide to buy a digital product.

[EmperorJon]

Here is one of my own, five years old but it is still very valid.

http://www.zdnet.com/news/why-drm-wont-ever-work/152278

You see, it being 5 years ago IS an issue. DRM kind of... does work. Lots and lots of games have DRM. I'll agree it's not particularly a good thing, indeed.
The point is, if you start quoting people from years back, you'll get people saying the internet will never work. Or computers. Or, my personal favourite...

Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further developments.

[Slashman]

DRM working or not working was never the issue. Developers and publishers both know it doesn't actually work. It's there mostly to satisfy shareholders...who generally have no concept about the reality of modern computing and technology.

The people buying the product don't care if it works or not so much as they care about being able to use the product without the DRM itself being a hurdle to usage.

The thing is that in this case, I think Steam comes out ahead because it tries to present itself as something that is actually useful to use, not as something meant to restrict. That's something that the other platforms haven't been able to do yet with the same level of success.

Educating those 40 million people won't mean much if the things you're trying to teach them don't seem to be actual issues to them.

How do you educate someone who's never owned a game box that it is a 'superior' purchase if he's never had an issue with his digital purchases? If that person got into gaming through Steam, has always had broadband available and has had nothing but positive experiences using the service, what do you say to them?

We've recently seen a lot of new people on the forums who came here because they bought X games from Steam. How do you say to them that the platform they used to get into such a great series is actually the harbinger of doom for their gaming future? (Assuming you actually believe that.)

[Deleted User]

It's not about luck. Threads like this can be really valuable to educating people about exactly what restrictions are imposed on them when they decide to buy a digital product

While also educating people about exactly what is not imposed on them when they decide to buy a digital product.

After a few hundred pages of discussion, I suspect that that what is not imposed is not particularly an issue.

[Deleted User]

DRM working or not working was never the issue. Developers and publishers both know it doesn't actually work. It's there mostly to satisfy shareholders...who generally have no concept about the reality of modern computing and technology.

The people buying the product don't care if it works or not so much as they care about being able to use the product without the DRM itself being a hurdle to usage.

The thing is that in this case, I think Steam comes out ahead because it tries to present itself as something that is actually useful to use, not as something meant to restrict. That's something that the other platforms haven't been able to do yet with the same level of success.

Educating those 40 million people won't mean much if the things you're trying to teach them don't seem to be actual issues to them.

How do you educate someone who's never owned a game box that it is a 'superior' purchase if he's never had an issue with his digital purchases? If that person got into gaming through Steam, has always had broadband available and has had nothing but positive experiences using the service, what do you say to them?

We've recently seen a lot of new people on the forums who came here because they bought X games from Steam. How do you say to them that the platform they used to get into such a great series is actually the harbinger of doom for their gaming future? (Assuming you actually believe that.)

You educate people with the facts.

[Slashman]

You educate people with the facts.

As long as one is prepared to accept that the facts that he/she finds alarming, may not hold the same significance for other people.

Also, a lot of 'facts' that have been presented here about Steam over the course of this thread have been 'what if' scenarios based on the premise that the platform can only be used for nefarious purposes.

[rusky]

DRM working or not working was never the issue. Developers and publishers both know it doesn't actually work. It's there mostly to satisfy shareholders...who generally have no concept about the reality of modern computing and technology.

The people buying the product don't care if it works or not so much as they care about being able to use the product without the DRM itself being a hurdle to usage.

The thing is that in this case, I think Steam comes out ahead because it tries to present itself as something that is actually useful to use, not as something meant to restrict. That's something that the other platforms haven't been able to do yet with the same level of success.

Educating those 40 million people won't mean much if the things you're trying to teach them don't seem to be actual issues to them.

How do you educate someone who's never owned a game box that it is a 'superior' purchase if he's never had an issue with his digital purchases? If that person got into gaming through Steam, has always had broadband available and has had nothing but positive experiences using the service, what do you say to them?

We've recently seen a lot of new people on the forums who came here because they bought X games from Steam. How do you say to them that the platform they used to get into such a great series is actually the harbinger of doom for their gaming future? (Assuming you actually believe that.)

You educate people with the facts.

Of which there is an alarming lack of.

Here's an interesting fact for you though:

I live in Eastern Europe, the supposed peak area for software piracy. As a kid, buying games was nearly impossible, due to simple unavailability and horrible pricing difference (years ago a single AAA game, assuming you could actually find somewhere to buy it, would've costed 30% or more of an average monthly salary).
I now have over 70 titles on Steam and an account worth just over $1341.31 USD (according to steamcalculator.com).
This is because Steam made buying games easy, and the constant steam sales gave me more reasons to actually buy the games I liked as well. I even paid for small indie titles I would have never heard of otherwise.

I played every X game since X BTF, but I could never buy them (mostly because nobody sold them here when I was young).
I now own them all thanks to Steam.

[quase]

Sad to tell you Rusky that your or my Steam account and those of all other Steam users are actually not "worth" anything. You own nothing with Steam. They only granted you a personalised limited usage right which you rented by subscribing to their service. That happens with all these account binding services and this is why I have set myself a limit of 5-10 € for a subscription on these platforms. Although I have recently and also because of this thread decided to buy only independent titles for less than 10 € on Steam either. This thread has made me aware that by supporting publisher based titles through Steam, even if only as a sale or budget title, I am feeding the machinery in an unhealthy way. Although the DeusEx 3 deal on Steam today is tempting, but I say thank you, no thank you! The Steam-only publishers totally lost me as a customer.

If you really think your account is worth 1300 $, try to sell something from your account or the whole account. Sure you could sell the whole account, but you are not allowed to do so and if Steam noticed that you sold it, they will close the account.

This is also why I would be willing to give up my oh so precious Steam account (60+ games) every day if only we all could have a better system the other day. I lose nothing because I own nothing on Steam. Anything I "buy" on Steam gets worthless the moment it is bound to my account.

[natha]

How do you educate someone who's never owned a game box that it is a 'superior' purchase if he's never had an issue with his digital purchases? If that person got into gaming through Steam, has always had broadband available and has had nothing but positive experiences using the service, what do you say to them?

Right there. Also how to put it a little "sentimental" and not get mocked in the way? A cousin of mine (younger, very younger) came home and loitered at my library. He's a nice kid and he's playing his share of games (the usual, call of duty, halo etc) . I said to him get down that 'falcon 4" box and that "ultima 9". He was staggered. You know what he said? "maaaaan, why they don't do that now? they're amazing! Like an encyclopedia! Did they still work?".
Yes they work just fine. And they will work until the CDs reach their expected lifetime.
As i've said before, i have no issues with steam, if its the way to go its ok. But why not put options? Options are good. And that is for me the topic of this thread not the misleading and uninformative stuff people drop around about stealing personal data, spam e-mails etc.

@quase, you have a point. there's nothing "physical" that you get with your purchase, which always bothered me. I've stated that the full price of 50 is just "rediculus". But honestly geting an AAA title (like Deus Ex 3) which is 6 months old for 9,99 is not exactly a steal. Its an almost fair deal, because you'll get triple enjoyment than a movie theater at almost the same price, and you can play it again. The movie ticket also worth nothing after you exit the cinema.