Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[Rednoahl]

Johnny Gamer is not important. He is not a shareholder. He does not directly contribute to the day to day operation of the company. He is not even a customer for Rebirth. At best he may be a potential customer who may or may not, but certainly can't be relied on, contribute to the company's success. All of which makes him no more important and his viewpoint no more valid than someone who has never even heard of the X series yet.

Johnny Gamer not important? Really? If that was true publishers wouldn't spend millions upon millions in marketing to Johnny Gamer would they?

[Jumee]

Johnny Gamer is not important. He is not a shareholder. He does not directly contribute to the day to day operation of the company. He is not even a customer for Rebirth. At best he may be a potential customer who may or may not, but certainly can't be relied on, contribute to the company's success. All of which makes him no more important and his viewpoint no more valid than someone who has never even heard of the X series yet.

Johnny Gamer not important? Really? If that was true publishers wouldn't spend millions upon millions in marketing to Johnny Gamer would they?

I think the two of you have different concept of Johnny N-S means that loosing a few die-hards isnt a problem so his Johnny is a minority opposing Steam, the Johnny you are talking about (the one that gets millions spent on him) is a broad audience which at least at the moment seems to be mostly pleased by Steam

Regarding choice I personally would not mind even if there was a dozen of different versions, but Egosoft probably will

[Chris0132]

Generally 'Johnny Adjective' is used to describe the average member of a demographic.

[TEKing66]

Case in point "Johnny anti-Steam", this one doesn't matter, exists only to clog up forum threads and harass the peacefull pro-Steam crowd. Should at all costs be avoided, and unlike most critters absolutely should not be fed.

Any game that has went Steam only has these posts, and very similar debates. In the end, it is all the same. Once a CEO type makes a decision they have to stick with it. It's not very leader like to back-track on a decision, good or bad.

Sadly, I suspect we will NEVER see a Steam free version of Rebirth.

[Jumee]

Sadly, I suspect we will NEVER see a Steam free version of Rebirth.

they might release nosteam.exe file eventually

[TEKing66]

Na, I'm not expecting it.

I'd say X3AP is the last game from Egosoft I'll be able to play.
Oh well, guess it is what it is.

[Jumee]

I'd say X3AP is the last game from Egosoft I'll be able to play.

well at least there is X-TC/X-TL/XRM you might find that for quite some time there will be something to occupy you and by the time you are done with this - who knows - Egosoft might just do something

[Nagittchi]

Shrug. If people aren't willing to go on with the times, then too bad. And people boycotting a game just because its on Steam? Thats the same type of people who boycotted MW2, joined the boycott group, then when MW2 was released, almost all the people in that group were playing it.

I have had zero problems with any game purchased and played from Steam. When I had a CD copy (not pirate copy) of IL-2 and I compare it to the one I have on Steam (since I lost my CD years ago), there's hardly any difference. I can still mod the game, upgrade it to 4.11 (Steam only has up to 4.09) and Steam doesn't touch it unless I verify game cache.

There are a handful of people that hate new things just because they're new. It's the same thing with another community I've seen, namely the Jagged Alliance community. People even complained that the sounds from JA2 were superior to the newest addition, which is laughable. I'm not putting down either game, but still. Just an example of people resistant to any change. There are people who even hate on GOG... who's games don't even come with any DRM! WHY? Most likely because it's some new thing.

I believe that the people who will refuse to buy Rebirth because it's on Steam is an underwhelming minority. You can't please everyone anyway. If not for Steam, I would have never found out about this wonderful game I've put hours and hours into.

At least it's not on Origin, where you get banned from Origin if you get banned on their forums. At least on Steam, if you get banned from a Valve game, it's only VAC protected servers on Valve games, not your whole library. The only time where someone loses their whole account is if they try to commit fraud (using CD keys that don't belong to you). And if you're stupid enough to commit fraud, you deserve to be punished.

The only valid reasons I can see why people do not like Steam are the currency differences, namely Europe (Australia gets shafted regardless of Steam or not ) and the lack of a physical copy.

[TEKing66]

I suppose that as long as everyone has access to broadband, then there really is no reason to complain.

Try installing, updating, and playing a Steam game using dial-up.

[Deleted User]

Shrug. If people aren't willing to go on with the times, then too bad. And people boycotting a game just because its on Steam? Thats the same type of people who boycotted MW2, joined the boycott group, then when MW2 was released, almost all the people in that group were playing it.

I have had zero problems with any game purchased and played from Steam. When I had a CD copy (not pirate copy) of IL-2 and I compare it to the one I have on Steam (since I lost my CD years ago), there's hardly any difference. I can still mod the game, upgrade it to 4.11 (Steam only has up to 4.09) and Steam doesn't touch it unless I verify game cache.

There are a handful of people that hate new things just because they're new. It's the same thing with another community I've seen, namely the Jagged Alliance community. People even complained that the sounds from JA2 were superior to the newest addition, which is laughable. I'm not putting down either game, but still. Just an example of people resistant to any change. There are people who even hate on GOG... who's games don't even come with any DRM! WHY? Most likely because it's some new thing.

I believe that the people who will refuse to buy Rebirth because it's on Steam is an underwhelming minority. You can't please everyone anyway. If not for Steam, I would have never found out about this wonderful game I've put hours and hours into.

At least it's not on Origin, where you get banned from Origin if you get banned on their forums. At least on Steam, if you get banned from a Valve game, it's only VAC protected servers on Valve games, not your whole library. The only time where someone loses their whole account is if they try to commit fraud (using CD keys that don't belong to you). And if you're stupid enough to commit fraud, you deserve to be punished.

The only valid reasons I can see why people do not like Steam are the currency differences, namely Europe (Australia gets shafted regardless of Steam or not ) and the lack of a physical copy.

Shrug. At least you recognise distinctions.

[quase]

The only valid reasons I can see why people do not like Steam are the currency differences, namely Europe (Australia gets shafted regardless of Steam or not ) and the lack of a physical copy.

I am pissed off by people who tell me that my reasons not to buy games that come with Steam aren't valid. Before I have to become personal, I will just stop and ignore your narrow-minded generalizing commentary. Just so you know, but maybe you should go back the over 300 hundred posts and read some of the Steam-opposing ones. It will need some kind of reading comprehension of course.

You seem to be one of the persons that has some kind of inner conflict with other distributors than Steam or why else are you talking down on Origin for example. You are spreading the same kind of false information about Origin that the Steam supporters in this thread have accused the opposition when arguing about Steam and Rebirth.
Come to think of it, you will have to go with the times too. Steam will not be the one and only digital distributor that matters in the future. You will see the big publishers rising their own platforms with massive efforts and marketing or do you think they will just sit there, look at Valve and applaud them for the cash they make. You will have at least 5 different of these nifty clients running on your PC for all your games by the end of the century I think. Steam could be the least important or weakest one in the market position if the big publishers would want it to be because Valve actually has no power over the distributed games. Steam lives at the grace of the publishers, but if they see a better deal, they will abandon it. See the Origin exclusivity for EA titles as the beginning of this.

Now you could say, the people will not support other platforms if for example Assassins Creed 3 was exclusively available over uPlay, but I say you are the minority in this case. The "people" do not care if it was Steam, GfWL, Origin, uPlay, Battle.net or whatever. They just buy the game. Look at StarCraft 2 or Mass Effect 3.

If you can live with all this account binding huppy-fluppy then I salute you, but I can not live with it and I certainly will not buy into it.

On a side note, Ubisoft seem to rethink their DRM strategy these days. There was a CEO talking about games published without DRM and a customer oriented concept where it was all about quality and content. Sounds like empty marketing speech, but who knows, maybe they have finally come to their senses and recognised that their business is not here for pleasing the shareholders only, but actually for serving the customers. I am excited, how this will work out and how it will be realised. Maybe after years of Ubicott, I can buy some of their nice games again.

[Alan Phipps]

@ quase: What Nagittchi said was about the only valid reasons that he could see. That describes his outlook and opinions and is not about yours and so is not a personal attack on your reasons and their validity to you. However your return comment clearly aimed at him about needing 'some kind of reading comprehension' and later discussion of his alleged conflicts and motivations crosses the line into the personal.

Please be more tolerant and so avoid getting pissed off and attacking posters inappropriately. No more of this personal allegation from either side here please.

[Slashman]

You seem to be one of the persons that has some kind of inner conflict with other distributors than Steam or why else are you talking down on Origin for example. You are spreading the same kind of false information about Origin that the Steam supporters in this thread have accused the opposition when arguing about Steam and Rebirth.

Ummm...quase, that's actually not false information. It has happened multiple times. EA have banned entire Origin accounts due to 'misbehaviour' on their forums.

The first time it happened, they said it was a mistake and they were taking steps to correct it...then it happened again...and again. EA actually have done some bad things through Origin. You can do a quick Google search to see this.

[quase]

I am sorry, but what EA is doing, is probably simply enforcing the stuff they have written in their EULA. If these actions do legally matter or not and if they are justified does not matter as long as it is not brought to a court. It is the Steam crowd that is praising this feature of enforcement by user account control system as an advantage, don't they? Guilty until proven innocent, the burden of proof is switched to the customer that's all you see happening here.

I also think that with all the hatred towards Origin, these examples of banned Origin accounts are rare exceptions rather than a common practice. At least I have not read about this happening regularly and I am pretty well informed in the whole gaming affairs as you should have noticed already.
Origin, Steam, Battle.net ... it does not matter, they are all the same shit to me! In my opinion, the hypocrisy is by people that praise Steam on one hand and hate Origin on the other hand.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

You seem to be one of the persons that has some kind of inner conflict with other distributors than Steam or why else are you talking down on Origin for example. You are spreading the same kind of false information about Origin that the Steam supporters in this thread have accused the opposition when arguing about Steam and Rebirth.

What Nagittchi has said is actually quite correct, people have been Origin banned from their entire games account. See Slashmans link for details.

In fairness to EA tho it should be acknowledged that the individuals concerned were acting like twats and fully deserved a smack around the head. Banning from the entire service tho is excessive for merely being a **** on a forum. EA's position is that the full bans issued were a software error with their system and while that does have the smell of a PR soundbite about it I've had the pleasure of wrestling with EA's accounts systems in the past and it's FUBAR'd to the point I'd actually be prepared to believe them on this one.

Steam could be the least important or weakest one in the market position if the big publishers would want it to be because Valve actually has no power over the distributed games. Steam lives at the grace of the publishers, but if they see a better deal, they will abandon it. See the Origin exclusivity for EA titles as the beginning of this.

Let's say for example that happens, that EA suddenly develop a heart of gold and a shiny platinum halo to match and offer to host developers games with all the benefits that Steam offers for half the cost to the developer. I'm sure you're absolutely correct that developers will migrate to EA. The same deal for half the cost? They'd be daft not to!

Why is that a problem tho for anyone except Steam? As you stated yourself Steam does not own the IP rights to any of the games that they sell anymore than Gamestop does. They can't prevent any of their customers jumping ship. They're just a fancy internet shop when it comes down to it. Developers can just take their game, stick it up for download on Origin and your content will be available to you as it was before. The only minor inconvenience would be you'd need to sign up to Origin and boot up the Origin client to play rather than Steam.

Now you could say, the people will not support other platforms if for example Assassins Creed 3 was exclusively available over uPlay, but I say you are the minority in this case. Look at StarCraft 2 or Mass Effect 3.

Absolutely agree with you on this one, it's the whole reason this "Steam=Game over!" poll will go nowhere. People, as you say, do not care if it is Steam, GfWL, Origin, uPlay, Battle.net or whatever. They just buy the game.

[natha]

Steam has no shareholders, valve doesn't enter the stock market because "it couldn't handle the interference from shareholders".
Nevermind.

N-S got closer to the actual point, when comes to "will i be able to play my game in 2032?".
Well its up to the developer. Actually to the ethos of the developer. What steam had to do with it? Its only a "fancy online re-seller".

I have a specific game (Hellgate London), the dev closed doors, suddenly, leaving people with a DVD which now is a beatiful base to put your coffee, on.
If i want to play i must <do something illegal! - Alan Phipps>. Ridiculous, since i can download from the same source a non-starforce copy, and keep my PC happy too.
They should, as a "last swan song", at that point, release a last patch or whatever so people who bought their product be able to use it as long as they want. I loved egosoft's habit to remove TAGES after some time, and i'm quite confident that if we reach a point to close doors (now i'm not superstitious, but i;ll knock on wood, in any case ) they will do it properly.

[Slashman]

I am sorry, but what EA is doing, is probably simply enforcing the stuff they have written in their EULA. If these actions do legally matter or not and if they are justified does not matter as long as it is not brought to a court. It is the Steam crowd that is praising this feature of enforcement by user account control system as an advantage, don't they? Guilty until proven innocent, the burden of proof is switched to the customer that's all you see happening here.

The thing is that I'm more inclined to go with the service that has been operating for 8 years and has no incidents of that kind if thing happening than I am to go with the service that's been out for less than a year and has done stuff like that multiple times.

I also think that with all the hatred towards Origin, these examples of banned Origin accounts are rare exceptions rather than a common practice. At least I have not read about this happening regularly and I am pretty well informed in the whole gaming affairs as you should have noticed already.

They've been publicized by several major gaming news sites. So I'm not sure how informed you are. Maybe you just glossed over it. It doesn't matter. The thing that matters to me is that I have yet to see any evidence of Steam doing that sort of thing. Neither does Steam have in its EULA that inactive accounts will lose their games or access to download their games after a certain period has passed.

Origin, Steam, Battle.net ... it does not matter, they are all the same shit to me! In my opinion, the hypocrisy is by people that praise Steam on one hand and hate Origin on the other hand.

It's not a matter of hate. I use the service that offers me the best choice as a customer. The difference between you and me is that you're completely opposed to digital distribution with any kind of account ties to your games, while I'm only opposed to digital distribution that gives bad service or does things that I find unacceptable.

For me to be hypocritical, I'd have to have be thinking of these services as something more or less than a tool to use to get games I'm interested in playing. That's really what matters to me. Can I play the games I want to play on terms that I find acceptable? Currently I don't own any games on Origin, but I do own games on Impulse, GOG, Steam and Desura. I may prefer Steam because I like some of the additional features it has, but that's all it comes down to.

I start spending too much time wringing my hands over what these services may or may not do in the future and I'm suddenly losing the opportunity to play games that I like when I may not even be around 5 years from now.

[TEKing66]

One thing that all of these services rely on is that the customer has access to broadband internet.

Unfortunately, even in this modern technologically advanced times, that is still not the case with everyone. And, unfortunately, it is customers like myself that will suffer. Hence the reason that I and others like me feel the need for a Steam-free version of any game. If someone is stuck with a crappy slow connection, then Steam, or any similar service, is truly more aggravating and problematic to deal with than a DVD DRM based game.

If Egosoft would just say that at somepoint in Rebirths life a Steam-free executable would be offered for those in my situation. Then I would shut-up and quit my whining. And I would do for Rebirth just as I have with X3AP, that being deal with Steam until I don't have to.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Unfortunately, even in this modern technologically advanced times, that is still not the case with everyone. And, unfortunately, it is customers like myself that will suffer. Hence the reason that I and others like me feel the need for a Steam-free version of any game. If someone is stuck with a crappy slow connection, then Steam, or any similar service, is truly more aggravating and problematic to deal with than a DVD DRM based game.

Agreed. And, as I've said before, your position is wholly understandable and your complaint entirely legitimate as Steam is not a platform that is well-suited to your technological limitations. Dial-up is one thing. Crappy dial-up.. well..

If Egosoft would just say that at somepoint in Rebirths life a Steam-free executable would be offered for those in my situation. Then I would shut-up and quit my whining. And I would do for Rebirth just as I have with X3AP, that being deal with Steam until I don't have to.

The good thing is that Egosoft as a developer have shown themselves to be very customer-friendly over the years. Much as some might like to claim that Egosoft have 'sold out' I doubt very much that is the case, they didn't have to release the no_steam.exe recently after all.

Obviously it's far to early for Egosoft to make any kind of statement on the issue when they've not even announced a release date yet, but I expect in due course they may very well release a similar thing for Rebirth a year or so down the line. Again, it's not ideal, but I suppose on the plus side if they do release a similar .exe for Rebirth at least you'll be getting it for a patched and mature product.

[Jumee]

Neither does Steam have in its EULA that inactive accounts will lose their games or access to download their games after a certain period has passed.

Origin does? seriously? I need to log in into origin then, haven't been there in ages :/, but that is just to much to be honest