Spaceships like X3 and EVE actually can reach lightspeed

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Incubi
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Post by Incubi »

Morkonan wrote: a lot of stuff
I did not get the part as to why it is divided by light in the first place. Would it not be the same result if you divided it by the speed of sound or just any other number?

Then again I get lost at this level of math so please explain so in a way that does not draw circles around my head.

Ok here is a stupid question to anyone wiht decent math skills, I do not have them so for me it is a good question.

If we could devise a way to stand on a light beam. and then allowed the light beam to carry you at the speed it travels. what would prevent you from traveling the speed of light then?

Similar stupid question from someone who just does not know. If we could use light to accelerate an object in any other way, would we not be able to then reach lightspeed and perhaps even beyond it? A sort of lightdrive.
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Post by bonalste »

I don't understand why everyone seems to say that friction doesn't matter. It may be a vaccuum but space is far from empty. Travelling at an appreciable percentage of the speed of light will absolutely cause issues due to friction.
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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan »

red assassin wrote:...When compared to a monitor which, at best, has a response time in the order of a millisecond, a million times slower than the system clock, you are barking up entirely the wrong tree trying to improve the speed of the processor in order to display an object moving across the screen at what happens to be lightspeed.
I'm not trying to improve the system clock. I'm just using separate clocks and separate inputs to my theoretical monitor. ie: "But, you could fake it by using multiple, independent, inputs and give the appearance of something traveling across the screen at that rate.. if you could detect it, that is."

[ external image ]

IOW, in the image above, each circle represents a pixel. Each of those pixels is controlled by a separate clock. Each clock is set to illuminate the pixel at a certain time. The differences in the set time are such that they make it "appear" that a light is "moving", similar to how a runway light appears to move from one end of the runway to another, but nothing actually moves. The illusion of movement is due to the way we are biologically set up to process information. The light doesn't actually move and its illumination is not controlled by one source.

Now, the response time of the monitor may enter into it, that is true and not something I considered earlier. Then, it all depends on perception and resolution.

(On clockspeed and the speed of light - IIRC, an electrical engineering board I looked at had a discussion like this going on. A couple of the engineers referred to clockspeeds existing now that were >70% of the speed of light. If necessary, I'll try to dig through and find the reference, if the offered info is contested. Not trying to support any particular point with it, though.)
At any rate, the original point was "(In terms of the game, this rule applies as well. A computer could not accelerate a spaceship, even if it is fake, to "the speed of light" because it uses tiny masses and a heck of a lot of heat to generate information and that information simply could not travel fast enough.*)" which is, as I have said above, entirely and completely false.
I am not sure what you are contesting, here. If you are saying that the information concerning a value that is represented as a ship traveling the speed of light, I would agree with you. The computer could even compensate for all sorts of calculations concerning its movement. But, that isn't what I was talking about. I was, instead, saying that one computer could not appear to accelerate an icon of a spaceship traveling across a monitor's screen at a measurable rate that was equal to the speed of light. If you are saying that it can, I'd like to know how.
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Post by blazer1121 »

I'm probably going to show the gaping hole in my mathematical knowledge by trying to sum that up by saying... So you can't reach the speed of light because you would need an infinite source of power, because the closer you get to the speed of light the more energy is required to continue speeding an object up?

Assuming I actually reached the right conclusion there :P

Infinite power source, light speed! Match set and won by whoever works that one out! :D
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Post by Morkonan »

Incubi wrote:
Morkonan wrote: a lot of stuff
I did not get the part as to why it is divided by light in the first place. Would it not be the same result if you divided it by the speed of sound or just any other number?
This I am not sure of and perhaps red assassin would like to comment on that.

I would think it's because the speed of light is constant in all reference frames and the Lorentz Transformation is about how space-time contracts in relation to a frame of reference. So, the introduction of a constant enables a meaningful value.
Then again I get lost at this level of math so please explain so in a way that does not draw circles around my head.
I know doodly about maths.. Mostly. But, it's not the maths that are terribly difficult, it's understanding what they really mean. At least, for simple discussions. I'm not about to rush out and do any weird metrics or try to figure out Feynman diagrams.. (Kind of cool, actually.)
If we could devise a way to stand on a light beam. and then allowed the light beam to carry you at the speed it travels. what would prevent you from traveling the speed of light then?
It doesn't matter. (Besides, that is an excellent Troll Science piece, if you haven't seen it. :D Google "Troll Science.") What mattes is that you are still trying to accelerate something with mass (you) to the speed of light and that won't work. Even if you had something like a neutron gun which, despite being disproven as superluminal, shot out superluminal particles that were capable of propelling you, you still wouldn't be able to accelerate to lightspeed because the energy necessary would continue to increase until it reached the infinite. (Though, I'm certain someone will try to chime in and tell me how wrong I am..)
Similar stupid question from someone who just does not know. If we could use light to accelerate an object in any other way, would we not be able to then reach lightspeed and perhaps even beyond it? A sort of lightdrive.
No. Even if you used high-powered lasers impacting on a plate that never ablated, you could not do it.

Does a 60 kilometer per hour wind move a sailing ship at 60 kilometers per hour, or at a speed slightly slower? Now, take that ship and try to accelerate it to the speed of light using uber-strength-engines. When the ship starts to increase in velocity, the amount of energy necessary to continue accelerating grows to the point that it is impossible to reach the speed of light. You can think of the ship as becoming more massive and more difficult to move, the faster it gets, similar to it becoming more burdened down in an ocean as it takes on water and slowing down, regardless of how much wind is blowing on it.
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Post by Morkonan »

blazer1121 wrote:I'm probably going to show the gaping hole in my mathematical knowledge by trying to sum that up by saying... So you can't reach the speed of light because you would need an infinite source of power, because the closer you get to the speed of light the more energy is required to continue speeding an object up?

Assuming I actually reached the right conclusion there :P

Infinite power source, light speed! Match set and won by whoever works that one out! :D
Yes.

:D

At least, in normal space moving a mass bearing object through a vacuum.
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Olterin
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Post by Olterin »

Hmm...

disclaimer: for a somewhat readable proper theoretical explanation as to why you can't accelerate over the speed of light, I suggest reading literature...


Now, the short version is:
Special relativity postulates this - the speed of light is the same in all reference frames (a reference frame being an inertial frame). This one simple thing should suffice, actually (there was a second postulate which I'm forgetting right now). Now, let's assume you're on the spaceship, and let's, for the sake of argument, assume that the acceleration goes in discrete chunks of change of impulse (so that we have an inertial frame the rest of the time). This would mean that no matter how much you tried to change your impulse (and that's what accelerating means, really), you would still see light going at the same speed.

This has a couple interesting effects: for you, time outside the ship appears to slow down, all the points of light appear to move in front of you as you accelerate further and further, light in front of you seems to blueshift, light behind you to redshift. Blueshifting light in front of you incidentally means that after some point, you have to have a pretty serious radiation shield if you want to keep going alive, since even what would normally be visible light would go into x-rays and beyond.

For an outside observer, however, time on your spaceship is going to appear to go slower and slower. Special relativity tells us that there is no special reference frame, so, what this outside observer sees, is going to be just as valid. Assuming you, in your spaceship reference frame, maintain a constant acceleration - for an outside observer this would mean that as you accelerate more and more, your acceleration decreases more and more (the chunk of impulse you change stays the same, but the time interval over which it occurs lengthens), finally going to 0 in the limit as your ship would approach the speed of light.

However, for the most part those are technical limitations. There is also a fundamental problem with trying to accelerate beyond the speed of light (which is really just happenstance that light travels at it - think of it as a constant fundamental to our spacetime) - which I might attempt to tackle explaining once exams are over.


taking general relativity into account somewhat changes things, however, special relativity will always hold locally


edit: not to mention the "bad" gameplay you'd get if you actually tried pulling that off :roll:
Last edited by Olterin on Tue, 6. Mar 12, 11:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Xenon_Slayer »

We're gonna have to start submitting some of these threads to the journal of astrophysics.
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red assassin
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Post by red assassin »

Morkonan wrote:
Incubi wrote:I did not get the part as to why it is divided by light in the first place. Would it not be the same result if you divided it by the speed of sound or just any other number?
This I am not sure of and perhaps red assassin would like to comment on that.

I would think it's because the speed of light is constant in all reference frames and the Lorentz Transformation is about how space-time contracts in relation to a frame of reference. So, the introduction of a constant enables a meaningful value.
Unfortunately the answer to this is effectively "because it's a fundamental property of the Universe". It's nothing to do with light in particular; quite the opposite: light travels at the fundamental maximum speed because it has zero mass. You are quite correct that this maximum speed is the same from any reference frame, and thus light will be observed to travel at the same speed from any reference frame.

This property was originally derived from the Lorentz equations of electromagnetism, which successfully predict the existence of an electromagnetic wave, but produce a wave with a constant speed which is not dependent on reference frame. This fundamental incompatibility with Newtonian mechanics is what led to the development of relativity.

There's no particular intuitive reason that this should be the case, however, or why the maximum speed should be what it is; this is simply how we observe the Universe to be.

If we could devise a way to stand on a light beam. and then allowed the light beam to carry you at the speed it travels. what would prevent you from traveling the speed of light then?
It doesn't matter. (Besides, that is an excellent Troll Science piece, if you haven't seen it. :D Google "Troll Science.") What mattes is that you are still trying to accelerate something with mass (you) to the speed of light and that won't work. Even if you had something like a neutron gun which, despite being disproven as superluminal, shot out superluminal particles that were capable of propelling you, you still wouldn't be able to accelerate to lightspeed because the energy necessary would continue to increase until it reached the infinite. (Though, I'm certain someone will try to chime in and tell me how wrong I am..)
Curiously, as I recall, imagining riding on a photon travelling away from the clock tower in Bern is how Einstein claimed to have come up with the basic principles of relativity.

Anyway, since you have mass, you would require infinite energy to travel at lightspeed. It doesn't matter how you try and gain said energy.



Those not following Morkonan and myself's other discussion may wish to tune out at this point.

What you're describing is the way in which *any* moving object is drawn on a screen - by illuminating fixed pixels at the correct times. You don't need to do anything different to draw something which appears to cross the screen at the speed of light; you just need fast enough components. There's no fundamental difference in any sense between drawing something moving at 0.3m/s, c, or 100c. While there will be an upper limit on how fast an object you can draw, this has no dependence on the real-world speed of light and solely depends on the resolution of your system and how fast you can switch components on and off.

To illustrate, I could, right now, with readily available components (though, granted, rather a lot of them), construct a simple display showing an object passing much faster than the speed of light. Here's how:

First, for the pixels, we're going to want a bunch of simple systems with a network connection and a digital output. An Arduino or something similar should be entirely suitable for the job here. Let's take ten of them. Now, we connect an LED to a digital output on each, and then we give each of them an ID number, and we program them to turn their LED on for a thousandth of a second (an Arduino+LED probably isn't quite that fast, but it's close, and at any rate a good monitor will switch this fast so it's entirely possible to do) when they receive a network packet containing their ID number.

Now, we're going to need an awful lot of fibre-optic cable, and we're going to equally space our Arduinos around the equator, connected up with the fibre-optic cable.

And now, we take a computer which will be the controller. At this point, we note that it takes light about a tenth of a second to perform a lap of the Earth (this isn't quite right, but it'll do as an order-of-magnitude estimate). And we set the controller up so that it transmits packets in reverse order, such that the packet for the 10th Arduino which is almost all of the way around the Earth is dispatched first, at -0.1 seconds for the packet's transit time +0.01 seconds for the result's transit time, followed by the 9th Arduino's packet at -0.09s packet + 0.009s result, and so forth, until the Arduino closest to the controller gets its packet transmitted at time 0.

(Obviously, lag will be introduced into this process by the network which is not distance-dependent, but this is constant for each device and so can be ignored.)

And the result of this is that the Arduinos receive their packets at 0.001 second intervals around the Earth's circumference, and our crude screen then shows an object which performs a lap of the Earth at ten times the speed of light. And this has all been done with a single clock, on the controlling system, no trickery, and nothing implausible with current technology. All I've done is increase the spatial separation of the pixels sufficiently to compensate for the 1ms-level switching of a display pixel, and at no point has the true speed of light had any effect on anything other than how early I need to dispatch my packets.

Edit to clarify the point here: While there will be upper limits on how fast an object you can draw, they depend on arbitrary parameters of the system other than the speed of light, and so in the majority of cases the maximum speed of an object you can draw is not going to be equal to the speed of light.


As an aside on clock speeds relating to relativistic limits, relativity does govern the maximum rate at which information can be carried. It's somewhat hard to tell how far it needs to be carried across a processor in a single clock tick, but given light travels 3cm in 0.1ns, which would correspond to the tick rate of a 10GHz processor, we might not be too far off hitting that limit. It's probably within an order of magnitude or two. Increased clock speeds have been found to be inefficient for other reasons, though, which is why clock speeds haven't really changed much in the last few years, with processor computation speed improvements coming in other ways.
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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan »

red assassin wrote:...All I've done is increase the spatial separation of the pixels sufficiently to compensate for the 1ms-level switching of a display pixel, and at no point has the true speed of light had any effect on anything other than how early I need to dispatch my packets....
Well, you have included the travel distance as part of your apparatus, sort like emptying a container of water by using multiple tubes of different lengths, all connected at the same point with a valve on each. You use that mechanic to compensate for timing problems as sort of an artificial clock. Since the signal is delayed by distance, you can process other signals at less than the speed of light.

Though, I still think using independent controllers on separate timers would be easier to fit inside a box... :D

PS - You know, though... You could send a signal through the internet and work out a way to capture return signals somehow using a device that would activate the monitor and keep the inputs independent. IIRC, there is/was an ongoing experiment with something vaguely like this using a downloadable app that helps a researcher map the net, among other things.
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Post by GalenEvil »

Interesting thread, enlightening and fun to read even. I will add in my two cents with a bit of Futurama-based information.

The process that the Planet Express ship uses to travel extraordinary distances in relatively small amounts of time works, as shown in an episode that I don't remember the name of / position in the Season-Episode hierarchy, by moving space itself and not the ship.

While this has a number of insane and likely impossible mathematic/physic things wrong with it there is the possibility of working (somehow).

Or, going with an older reference of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, the Heart of Gold runs on the Improbability Drive which works by figuring out just how improbable something is to happen such as going from point A in one galaxy to point B in another galaxy a few thousand years in the past in an instant. Nothing is impossible, just absurdly improbable!

I am not putting these ideas forth for the purposes of serious discussion, just getting everything onto the platter so we can all take our choice bites out of it.

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Post by blazer1121 »

That brings to mind a really interesting metaphor I once saw on Stargate.
My memory is hazzy on the details because it's been so long since I watched Stargate. But basically there's a group of refugees from a highly evolved race of humans on Earth and before they leave Dr Jackson asks how they were going to cross such vast distances so quickly.
He responded by saying the distance wasn't vast at all, because they would make there and here next to each other. He asked Dr Jackson if he understood and he says no.

It more or less sums up how little most people understand how our universe works and the possibilities we have not yet discovered when it comes to travel. Inter dimensional thinking is a really waked out thing for most people.

Perhaps eventually when we learn more we can get outside of our 2 dimensional ideas and start altering space, time and using different dimensions to travel.
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Post by brucewarren »

People want interstellar space travel to be real. It's fun and exciting.

We are raised on fantasy shows that take it for granted- Star Trek, Star Wars,
Foundation series etc. All sorts of fun things are possible in fiction.

The only problem with this is that ordinary people sometimes forget that it's just a bit of fun
and take it seriously.

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