Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

[Kaiser Kraft]

Anyways, grammar education aside and back on topic, if you plan to stick to your guns then good for you, just don't count on that 30-40% being equally rock solid. As I said previously the internet has a long history of boycotts in a similar vein and it's established tradition by now that they really don't work out very well.

Definitely relevant.

:) that is a funny pic, but honestly on the whole issue I dont understand why people must be fanatic about steam - you dont have to love, it you dont have to hate it, you either use it, or you dont, I dont know why there are so many attempts to turn the "steam issue" into some sort of a crusade

Historical precedence, everyone loves to pretend that an issue on a personal level actually has a meaning beyond their own sphere of influence. It helps justify their position, if only in their own mind.

If you think that our actions don't affect those around us then your understanding of human nature must be off. The whole thing works on the predictive nature of human group dynamics and herd mentality. Try reading Plato's 'The Cave' and see what you can glean from it. I would also recommend reading some of John Taylor Gattos work on the modern education system.

This little exchange is a perfect example of group dynamics and demonstrates clearly the herd in action.

I guess some of use aren't herd material and actually have a mind of our own.

A proud member of the 30 percent steam dessenters.

[Kaiser Kraft]

Poor old grammar the youngsters just don't show her much respect these days.

PC thought control is the thing that gets my goat. Little Hitler's that run about telling people how they speak to or about everything. Surely adults are capable of looking after themselves. A teaspoon is a teaspoon, not a capacity challenged piece of cutlery.

I just noticed it's actually 40% with the activation only voters. 8)

A proud member of the 30 percent steam dessenters.

It's amazing how you're so anti-Steam, yet in playing any video game made in the last 10 or 15 years you're subjecting yourself to the same licensing and undesired side effects (DRM installed on your computer, registry changes, etc.) that Steam has.

Also, I'm digging the implication that it's only children who think Steam is useful and/or satisfactory at worst, whereas properly-educated gentlemen (such as yourself, of course) know otherwise.

As ever, a person opposed to Steam on "ethical" grounds (compared to legitimate reasons, IE bad internet in your area) who is, in fact, a hypocrite. Hating Steam is the hip thing to do. Where were you 20 years ago when game companies started making you register your product? What a RIDICULOUS notion, right?

The point you and many others seem to fail to grasp is this...peoples willingness to accept corporations imposing steam membership on their client base has set a standard, which has a direct negative effect on others who rejected it and will continue to reject it. Our position didn't have a negative effect on the people adopting steam. DRM and the steam model isn't just about copyright protection. It's about your rights and privacy and game developers falling into a distribution monopoly. Step back and look at the big picture and then you might start to understand why people like me draw the line.

Well, I'm glad to hear that (supposing you're being honest) you are one of the only (actually, THE only) people I've ever met whose rhetoric wasn't ruined by a counterexample of agreeing to some form of DRM in the past. That said, the EULA still is as bad as Steam -- you want to run an reductio ad absurdum regarding Steam and say that we should oppose it because it's a "rental service"? Then I'll take EULAs (that pretty much any non-indie game possesses) to their logical conclusion and say that every game ever released that has a EULA will suddenly have their publisher revoke user licenses, and you will have to agree never to play their game again. That's a very real possibility present in damned near every EULA, it's present in Steam, hell you've been playing X games so you've already agreed to such a license.

The point remains that, while you may not have played any games with Securom or other invasive DRM (except you admit in your lengthy response to me that you were fine with X3 having it for a while (¯\_(._.)_/¯ ), you still have played a game where the possibility existed that you could have your license revoked. I know, it sounds stupid, right? So do anti-Steam arguments to the same effect!

And I have no idea what kind of business you run where you sacrifice a multiplication of your customer base to keep appealing to a handful of good ol' boys... do you own a mom n' pop grocery store or something, and a Walmart moved in and stole all your business? I'm not sure why you fail to grasp the fact that you are a minority. Heck, even referring to that poll you cling so desperately to, you're a minority. And that's of the existing userbase (read: people going on Egosoft's forums). Now, not only does Egosoft maintain most of their existing customers, but now they broaden their advertisement and exposure tenfold. Sorry if it's a shock to you, mate, but video games are a business. The bottom line is far more important than "Mr. John Doe, that one customer who keeps writing us mean letters promising that he will never buy our product ever again."

Yeah, it's a harsh sentiment, but welcome to capitalism. You want a game made out of the love of making games, go play a flash game online. Reality is that progression continues onward, and shrouding opposition to progress in a facade of "LOL FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS PROUD MEMBER OF THE 30% ETC.ETC." is ridiculous. 99% all over again, talk big but don't do anything about it. Or, do something about it, then realize that your actions had little effect.

I'm not sure where you learnt maths and I'm guessing you're not in business. Thirty percent isn't a small percentage in business terms, especially if that business relies on a one trick pony.

Now what about the percentage gained from increased exposure? Would be curious to know how many people got the X-series thanks to the Steam Winter sale, probably a hell of a lot more than 30% of their current active userbase...

Gas stations used to have full service. That went bye-bye, they corporatized, some people didn't like it because of a perceived lessening of company interaction with customers, but it increased volume and income tremendously. I'm sure, given Egosoft's commitment to Steam, that something favorable showed up in their sales data since they first began distribution on it. Contrary to your belief, Egosoft and, uh, "Deepturd" (very mature) didn't choose to go with Steam just to make brick-and-mortar customers mad.

I really couldn't care less what their motivation is. Personally I would pay more to retain my freedoms and privacy, so Christmas sucker deals would not be an incentive.

As it happens my local garage is still a full service station, granted it's probably one of the last in the London area. They get my business even though it costs a little more.

If you're willing to wear corporate shackles good luck to you...enjoy your servitude. It's a shame that you have no concept of the things of real value and substance in this world.

I'm getting the impression that the new release is lacking in entertainment value if your having so much fun here.

I think I have made my position clear others are free to do as they will.

Thanks for the predictable and rather bland conversation.

A proud member of the 30 percent steam dessenters.

[angrytigerp]

If you're willing to wear corporate shackles good luck to you...enjoy your servitude. It's a shame that you have no concept of the things of real value and substance in this world.

Funny how you say this, completely disregarding how Steam multiplies the profits made on X3 sales due to both increased sales and reduced investment (read: not having to manufacture millions of disks).

I like the "corporate shackles" rhetoric, though, and how you conveniently have a counter-example to my analogy of full-service gas stations that proves how awesomely traditional you are. Yep, go figure, I bet you make your own clothes using cloth you buy, right? Shop at farmer's markets exclusively and never set foot in a modern chain department store?

That said, I can't understand the "I'm getting the impression that the new release is lacking in entertainment value if your having so much fun here." bit. Are you saying that Rebirth is going to lack entertainment value due to its distribution method? Fox and the grapes, much? No, that's not fitting, because that implies that something is physically keeping you from your potential prize. I suppose it fits well enough, point is that I hope you enjoy spending the next several years bitterly telling all us Steam sheep how much fun we're not having with Rebirth and any future X titles.

[TTD]

the new release is lacking in entertainment value

Maybe he was referring to AP ?

AP is not a full game like TC was.
For me it is just what it is...an interim game to mess about with until TNBT comes.

If only all those improvement were retro installed to TC...sigh...

[DrATty]

My feelings towards Steam haven't changed. I still think it's an unwanted layer of control than will ultimately cost gamers.
I decided to try it because the price was right. It was possible to buy the SuperBox for less than £5 in the holiday sale. I would not risk an expensive collection of games to Steam when they can be rendered useless by accident or whim.
My Internet connection still won't play ball with the SuperBox so I was surprised when another game I have on disk that requires Steam worked when I thought it would be hobbled too. It seems from other forums that the Steam requirement was removed because of the problems players were having. This was a game from the Crysis series, the entirety of which I paid £3 for. Indeed, including the SuperBox, I now have 9 Steam games which cost less than £2 each. At release, they would have cost hundreds of pounds. Only the SuperBox is stuck behind Steam. Perhaps this says something about the service.If I stick to buying older games I won't risk losing too much money and anyway, my experience so far suggests that Steam registration of retail disks doesn't require the same quality of connection as a download. I don't think Crisis even contacted Steam but I can't be sure.

[Slashman]

the new release is lacking in entertainment value

Maybe he was referring to AP ?

AP is not a full game like TC was.
For me it is just what it is...an interim game to mess about with until TNBT comes.

If only all those improvement were retro installed to TC...sigh...

The thing is I haven't even started AP yet. I'm hoping that they add even more stuff before I fire it up. I'm still playing TC and hoping more stuff gets ported to it from AP. I really want to finish all the plots in TC first before I jump to AP.

Of course now Skyrim keeps sucking up my TC play time! Curse you Bethesda!!!!!

[strude]

A proud member of the 30 percent steam dessenters.

What's a dessenter?

[Tycow]

I think he means "dissenter".

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Grammar, logic and rhetoric are totally under valued and very much on topic. If people were armed with the knowledge of those three skills schemes like steam could never flourish.

Well I've seen some questionable claims put forward in this thread but attributing Steams financial success to poor internet grammar is a new one for me..

If only all those improvement were retro installed to TC...sigh...

+1

I do feel Egosoft fumbled the ball a bit there.

A proud member of the 30 percent steam dessenters.

What's a dessenter?

According to Kaiser Kraft it's apparently another percentage point added to Steams annual turnover..

[Slashman]

Ummm...by the way...

Did anyone tell him that the 30% in this poll doesn't actually equate to 30% of Egosoft's customer base...but just the 30% of people who care enough to both subscribe to the forum and read this thread?

[Nanook]

And the same can be said about the other options, as well. You're right, it's probably not an accurate reflection of all Egosoft customers, just those who are internet literate and willing to post on forums. In that regard, it's probably highly biased towards the pro-Steam side, since that's a characteristic of Steam users in general.

[Tipp-Ex]

Also, 'your' is not a grammatically correct alternative to, or equivalent of, 'you're'. Just sayin'...

I will probably try Steam for Re-birth - yes I'm a Steam virgin.

[Mightysword]

they said the first time is memorable and can be painful (gender dependent) so I would say better pop that cherry sooner than later. You don't have to buy anything really. Just install the client and try out the demo. There usually are a couple of games that are available in full for free during the duration of the weekend.

This way you won't have a fail orgasm when Rebirth is released and you have trouble with it.

[Tipp-Ex]

they said the first time is memorable and can be painful (gender dependent) so I would say better pop that cherry sooner than later. You don't have to buy anything really. Just install the client and try out the demo. There usually are a couple of games that are available in full for free during the duration of the weekend.

This way you won't have a fail orgasm when Rebirth is released and you have trouble with it.

Sound advice there, Mightysword, thanks. I think I'll do that. I wouldn't want any erm, disappointments on the night... (I think I'll stop the analogy there ).

[Slashman]

And the same can be said about the other options, as well. You're right, it's probably not an accurate reflection of all Egosoft customers, just those who are internet literate and willing to post on forums. In that regard, it's probably highly biased towards the pro-Steam side, since that's a characteristic of Steam users in general.

Actually I'd say that's probably not a characteristic of Steam users at all. Most of them are too busy playing and enjoying their games to really care.

The people who post on game forums usually represent the hardcore followers of a game franchise. They're the ones who don't just play the game and put it down and move on. It's one of the reasons that developers don't and shouldn't make decisions based solely on the vocal input of forum members, they very rarely reflect the real situation with their customer base. They are, however, very valuable for input on game mechanics and the workings of your game.

Most of the people who play a developer's game will never bother to log onto their forums to tell them what they think.

It's one of the reasons that a system like Steam is so desirable to developers, it lets you have a better idea of how many people play your game and how long etc they spend on it. Things like achievements allows them to see what activities/quests players actually complete etc.

Oh...and your jab at Steam users was funny!

[Morkonan]

Just a note:

Whenever I come across the idea of having to install Steam for any reason, I throw up in my mouth a little bit...

IOW, this thread is frequently referred to as "The place to go to vent your pleasure/displeasure regarding Steam" and I am here to vent my displeasure.

After trolling the net, searching for a nice little game to occupy a bit of occasional free time away from X3TC, I have increasingly encountered "Requires a connection to Steam in order to play the game." and this makes me... angry.

I know publishers need to protect their copyrights! I agree wholeheartedly with that. But, there is no way I am ever going to willingly use a service like Steam, that often mangles the functionality of games (I like mod communities.) or forces the consumer into draconian arrangements in order to simply play the game they have bought. Nope, not for me, not going to do it.

I use Impulse, right now, for most of my game purchases. The selection is not as great, but I don't need to run the client at all in order to play or update my games and there's no other intrusive garbage that comes along with it.

(As far as being Internet Savvy, I was on the Internet before it was the Internet, so I'm a bit nonplussed by a description of non-steam users that would claim they are not very internet savvy...)

[A5PECT]

I don't seem to recall anyone disposition towards Steam with familiarity with the internet. But okay.

As for mod-friendliness, the ease and effectiveness of mod installation is dependent upon the developer, not Steam. Since Rebirth is being designed from the start with Steam in mind, the developers can make sure the game's modding architecture is not adversely affected by Steam's functionality. This is compared to Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude, whose core engine finished development well before being moved into Steam. Egosoft also has a chance to rectify general flaws in the original X3 modding architecture that are not caused by Steam.

So it is possible for Rebirth to be more mod-friendly than TC/AP; it has nothing to do with being a Steam program or not.

[TTD]

I was on the Internet before it was the Internet,

I remember being connected to a computer in another country and only having a dumb-terminal in front of me that did not have a screen to read.

Instead ,it had a built-in typing machine for hard-copy lists of programs and a tape punching machine,also built in.

The "fun" aspect was connecting a colour chart plotter and downloading a program to draw a sports car !

Those were the days !

[Jumee]

So it is possible for Rebirth to be more mod-friendly than TC/AP; it has nothing to do with being a Steam program or not.

this, there are several games that i know of on steam that did modding right and there are probably more that i dont know of, also I've played modded TC and AP and have/had no problems at all

[thetack]

so from what you are saying slashman the people on this forum the ones who have stood by Ego since X2 in my case, earlier for others, have helped out noobs, have suggested improvments, and have bought everything that Ego have released veiws are of no importance to the developers, with casual gamers who pick up play and drop beign more important, that to me seems the way to beign just another s**t games developer with a poor scence of its future and past.