Multiplayer (MMO), Rebirth and Funding

[Nanook]

...
And, independently of that (and whether this would apply to a MMO or a single-player game), is in-game advertising something Egosoft would consider, or are you against it as a matter of principle?

First off, and for the record, I'm not an Egosoft employee, just a volunteer moderator. Just to get that out of the way.

Personally, I'd not like to see product placement in any X game. It's the wrong place and the wrong era. The game universe is set hundreds of years in the future, and in an essentially alien universe. Current-day products would simply make no sense and would break the illusion as surely as putting them into a fantasy setting. So no thanks.

Where I could see them actually adding to the value of the games would be any taking place in the more or less current time period, or perhaps in something like the Fallout series, i.e., a post-apocalyptic time period.

Then again, I don't even care that much for MMO's and so I would much prefer Egosoft continuing to produce high quality single player games rather than diverting all their resources to some MMO.

[Al Zheimer]

I don't think "all their resources" would be diverted. Ship models would basically be shared between single- and multi-player, the graphics engine would be the same, the ship AI would be (almost) the same, and even a lot of the missions could be the same. I'd say that over 95% of the quests in WoW or EverQuest are designed to be done by a single player (although it might be more fun if you're doing them with a couple of friends), and a lot of people play those games as they would play a single-player game.

I agree that having ads for "earthly" products could hurt immersion, which is why I suggested fictitious futuristic products (but from real brands - otherwise obviously they wouldn't pay), like the Nike shoes with "power laces" in Back to the Future II (or the hover-skate, but I don't remember if that one had a brand or not).

perhaps in something like the Fallout series, i.e., a post-apocalyptic time period.

So you're saying that not even the apocalypse would manage to rid us of the advertising industry? Man, that's depressing.

[CBJ]

I tell you what Al Zheimer (like the name by the way ), why don't you go and pitch the idea of funding the development of an MMO to an advertising agency and see how you get on? Don't forget to mention that it's about spaceships and that the developer is a very small company.

Seriously, advertising agencies are not in the business of funding speculative projects that cost millions of €/$/£ which might or might not be successful and might or might not put their product in front of enough people to make the expense worthwhile. That's what publishers do.

Edit: Typo.

[Mudkest]

I know funcom did/tried this with anarchy online, though cant remember for the life of me how that worked out

[pissmaker]

I know funcom did/tried this with anarchy online, though cant remember for the life of me how that worked out

Some of them where irritating because i was rolling missions and was forced to loud explotions and thrash talk.
So i was avoiding those places but every time i found a new video i was staying far away to not get any sound while watching it

Also some people were crashlooping or geting crazy lag because of them.
No idea why they droped them. grief or no1 was watching them probably.
Also no idea why they didn't put images/items etc instead of those junk videos.
But it is so satisfying having nvidia spam placed next to cred scumers and begers

[garv222]

Can't see this generating much extra funding at all. The amount of funding it might produce would probably barely cover the expense of putting the ads in. Ways they could implement this might be having periodic updates which cycle in adds/images. However, if the rebirth ship is your personal ship, why are you putting adds on your walls? You'd be putting down rare works of art you've procured from that high values good merchant you just robbed.

If they implemented a good deal of station interiors, that'd be something work with. If anyone has played mass effect, imagine running around that stations/docks and having hi-res photo or low-res video playing on billboards there. Of course then you'd need to have constant annoying updates so they can update new ads for the billboards. I'm pretty sure that's going to get old fast for the fan base.

If they don't implement a system like that to get in new adds, they'd need to sell them way ahead of time which means knocking down the price per space dramatically, as the ads won't show up for years if the product is still in development. Now as far as X games are concerned, as mentioned it's a small fanbase and extremely difficult to target demographics based on how scattered the fan base is.

I think in-game adds built into the environment could work, but probably not for an X game. It'd probably be cheaper and easier to just tack some adds onto a start window/menu of a game rather than fitting it into actually game though. Immersion becomes a problem and you'd still need to develop a system of periodically changing it.

[pissmaker]

Success depends on implementation.
Also in order to get a deal at all the game has to match minimums like number of players, time of exposure and be suitability to the products target group.

Eg EA makes a huge profit from ads in fifa. I remember at least snicker and mars ads and i didn't mind at all. Others have fake products or again in football manager there are ads for charity organisations.
If any of those were obstructive/flashing/farting like forced replays whenever close to the sidelines showing how happy is a consumer that drinks coca cola and the game wasn't free, the game would be back next day for a refund.

In addition to this EA is huge with worldwide distribution deals and every region with football fans also has mars products available. Football fans are large consumers of soft drinks and snacks. $$$$ well spent.

The best ads were in syndicate wars with huge billboards showing bullfrog videos.
Also i liked the redbull ads of wipeout2. Extremely flashy perfect blend in If they went away i would really miss them and i never drink energy drinks.
Again mega hit and everyone playing wipeout is in the perfect activity/age group for energy drinks.

X? minimum audience imaginable with random anything concerning common characteristics amongst fans. Only ads informing about a career in nasa as a lab test subject are suitable.

Btw I forgot to say that i eventually replaced every ad video in ao with soundless porn files they are informative with attention to details
In general they have cool ads with ingame motos or special deals in shop and about some fan sites.

[Al Zheimer]

So i was avoiding those places but every time i found a new video i was staying far away to not get any sound while watching it

Yeah, ads with sound in a game where you need to pay attention to the sound is just a shot in the foot. Same as website ads with sound / music. It just makes me hate the advertiser and the website.

I think most advertisers have learned their lesson by now, though (most ads start out muted, and only play sound if you actually click them).

I tell you what Al Zheimer (like the name by the way ), why don't you go and pitch the idea of funding the development of an MMO to an advertising agency and see how you get on?

I don't have an existing product, player base or game development company to show them. You do.

And how would me going to an advertising agency and showing them my game help create an X-Online game? It's your IP, I couldn't base a game on it even if I wanted to and had a team of artists and coders ready to go.

And you didn't really reply to any of the questions.

- Have you talked to any advertising agencies?
- Have you mentioned the possibility of in-game advertising to any publishers?
- Are you against in-game advertising by principle?

Your replies seem to hover around "it would never work, so there's no point in trying". Reminds me of a (very-low-budget) TV series I worked on a few years ago where the producer told me there was no way we could use a certain video clip and two music tracks, because it would be too expensive. I spent a couple of days contacting the owners and I managed to get the video and one of the songs for free (in exchange for a mention in the credits). The other one never replied, so we didn't use that song.

Maybe all three would have said "no", or maybe they would have asked more than we could afford, but you can't know until you ask. NVidia pays game publishers just to include their logo on the box or the installer / splash screen. I suspect they'd pay a lot more if their logo actually appeared somewhere in the game.

Maybe there wouldn't be enough companies interested to fund the development (I doubt you'd get 100% funding just from advertising, but I also doubt that not a single company would be interested); it doesn't hurt to ask.

Unless, of course, Egosoft is just 100% against any in-game advertising, which is a perfectly valid and understandable decision.

[Reliku]

So i was avoiding those places but every time i found a new video i was staying far away to not get any sound while watching it

Yeah, ads with sound in a game where you need to pay attention to the sound is just a shot in the foot. Same as website ads with sound / music. It just makes me hate the advertiser and the website.

I think most advertisers have learned their lesson by now, though (most ads start out muted, and only play sound if you actually click them).

I tell you what Al Zheimer (like the name by the way ), why don't you go and pitch the idea of funding the development of an MMO to an advertising agency and see how you get on?

I don't have an existing product, player base or game development company to show them. You do.

And how would me going to an advertising agency and showing them my game help create an X-Online game? It's your IP, I couldn't base a game on it even if I wanted to and had a team of artists and coders ready to go.

And you didn't really reply to any of the questions.

- Have you talked to any advertising agencies?
- Have you mentioned the possibility of in-game advertising to any publishers?
- Are you against in-game advertising by principle?

Your replies seem to hover around "it would never work, so there's no point in trying". Reminds me of a (very-low-budget) TV series I worked on a few years ago where the producer told me there was no way we could use a certain video clip and two music tracks, because it would be too expensive. I spent a couple of days contacting the owners and I managed to get the video and one of the songs for free (in exchange for a mention in the credits). The other one never replied, so we didn't use that song.

Maybe all three would have said "no", or maybe they would have asked more than we could afford, but you can't know until you ask. NVidia pays game publishers just to include their logo on the box or the installer / splash screen. I suspect they'd pay a lot more if their logo actually appeared somewhere in the game.

Maybe there wouldn't be enough companies interested to fund the development (I doubt you'd get 100% funding just from advertising, but I also doubt that not a single company would be interested); it doesn't hurt to ask.

Unless, of course, Egosoft is just 100% against any in-game advertising, which is a perfectly valid and understandable decision.

So instead of tossing this in some forum, why dont you contact egosoft, pitch your idea, ask your questions, draw up an agreement where you will represent them, and put this into practice? If you are certain your idea works, you should be able to offer egosoft a deal where it would cost them nothing, and they can tell you what kind of stipulation is needed, what kind of ad would they allow/ disallow, and you can go off your merry way to obtain the contracts, and MMO development that you would desire. Sure both you and egosoft will have to do DD, and it will cost a few hours of lawyer fees, but at least then you can possibly make your suggestion into reality, instead of harping on a board where it ultimately goes nowhere... Talk is cheap, ideas are cheap, until it becomes reality.

[Ozman202]

To be honest we should just wait for Rebirth, people have managed on many occasions to code multiplayer functionalities into games which were not intended to have them (Elder scrolls series in particular) wait for Rebirth then let the modding community take a butchers are hacking a LAN multiplayer.

[Nanook]

Unless there's already network code built into the game, that doesn't work. Several modders have attempted it with previous X games and given up. It's not a moddable function in these games.

[Ozman202]

Unless there's already network code built into the game, that doesn't work. Several modders have attempted it with previous X games and given up. It's not a moddable function in these games.

While this may be true Egosoft have made a point of Rebirth being different, i suspect that its innards may also be very different to what the Script community here is used to.

[Shootist]

Remember Blade Runner? Remember those huge ads on the sides of buildings and on floating billboards?

There was even an ad for Hilton, IIRC, and an AT&T display on the Space Station in 2001: A Space Odyssey.

[CBJ]

I don't have an existing product, player base or game development company to show them. You do.

And how would me going to an advertising agency and showing them my game help create an X-Online game? It's your IP, I couldn't base a game on it even if I wanted to and had a team of artists and coders ready to go.

Apparently the gentle sarcasm passed you by. Just to put your initial assertion into context, though, Egosoft has an existing single-player product IP and an existing player base who have stated, regularly and in no uncertain terms, that they like their single-player games to stay that way. You might be able to spin that for an initial presentation, but when the bean-counters start doing their due diligence that's not going to help much.

Your replies seem to hover around "it would never work, so there's no point in trying". Reminds me of a (very-low-budget) TV series I worked on a few years ago where the producer told me there was no way we could use a certain video clip and two music tracks, because it would be too expensive. I spent a couple of days contacting the owners and I managed to get the video and one of the songs for free (in exchange for a mention in the credits). The other one never replied, so we didn't use that song.

Well done, but with all due respect, asking a rights-owner to forego a few hundred €/$/£ of royalties that they wouldn't have received anyway if you hadn't used their material, is hardly the same as going to an advertiser and pitching something that would cost them millions, take years to develop, be relatively high-risk, and provide no guarantees whatsoever regarding the number of people who would see it.

You are not the first, and you will not be the last, to come up with some scheme that you are sure could secure millions in funding, and insist that anyone who doesn't follow up your idea just lacks initiative. Nor are you the first, or last, to ignore feedback telling you that your idea is unrealistic. Keep up the optimism but don't be too surprised if people tell you to try those ideas yourself if you are so sure about them, even if only in jest.

And you didn't really reply to any of the questions.

- Have you talked to any advertising agencies?
- Have you mentioned the possibility of in-game advertising to any publishers?
- Are you against in-game advertising by principle?

I didn't reply because I didn't see much point. I am not involved in funding discussions with publishers. I very much doubt that such an unrealistic idea has been discussed, but I would imagine that the subject of in-game advertising might have come up at some point in the more realistic context of revenue generation after release. Egosoft has, in the dim and distant past, created entire games specifically for advertisers, which suggests that the idea of in-game advertising probably wouldn't be dismissed as a matter of principle. And no, none of this means that we currently have plans to introduce advertising; I'm just addressing the questions.

[Nanook]

Unless there's already network code built into the game, that doesn't work. Several modders have attempted it with previous X games and given up. It's not a moddable function in these games.

While this may be true Egosoft have made a point of Rebirth being different, i suspect that its innards may also be very different to what the Script community here is used to.

And pretty much everything they've ever posted has said there will be no multiplayer unless and until they can fund an MMO. So why would they devote any resources, valuable as they are, to putting in netcode they never intend to use? That's what they'd have to do to make it possible to mod multiplayer into the game. I honestly don't see this happening.