Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 14:37

perkint wrote:Chances are its a preorder of the boxed version from a retailer guessing at the release date. And if so, it'll still be SteamWorks...

Tim

[edit] just checked - Amazon have it available for preorder but no release date

Yeahs that what i thought, i'll be getting a boxed version myself as the large download would take too long. But it seems (unless egosoft and publishers changer their mind, which imo could still be on the table) it will still all be steamworks integrated.

TEKing66 · Post by **TEKing66** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 18:31

Even with a DVD version, as long as Steam is envolved I will still refuse to purchase it. I currently own two such games and simply can't get the updates required for the games to be able to play. I also own the Superbox, but still I can't get X3AP because of the hugh download. Again, if broadband where available here this wouldn't be such an issue.

Even if a major update doesn't come out for the first week or so, eventually one will. Steam will be trying to update it at some point and so at some point I will no longer be able to play the game without the update completeing through Steam. Large updates, Steam and a dial-up connection simply are not going to work for me.

With a Steam free DVD version I can download the updates from the local library, or anywhere, to a flash drive. Then bring them home and install the update. Steam will not allow me to do this, unless Steam is installed on the "other" PC, this in my book is another point against Steam. Maybe it all boils down to the same point. But still, Steam only does mean that, here at least, they will be losing a customer. I know it probably doesn't mean much, but I have generally purchased at least two copies of each game that Egososft has realeased in the X series. Plus with the Superbox I now have 3 copies of each game, with an exception of XBTF and Xtension (I only have two copies of those).

Is the chance of gaining a bunch that may only buy one game, get bored and never purchase the next really worth losing loyal customers over?

If it is then maybe I should just leave now as I have probably already worn out my welcome here anyway.

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 18:34

TEKing66 wrote:Even with a DVD version, as long as Steam is envolved I will still refuse to purchase it. I currently own two such games and simply can't get the updates required for the games to be able to play. I also own the Superbox, but still I can't get X3AP because of the hugh download. Again, if broadband where available here this wouldn't be such an issue.

Even if a major update doesn't come out for the first week or so, eventually one will. Steam will be trying to update it at some point and so at some point I will no longer be able to play the game without the update completeing through Steam. Large updates, Steam and a dial-up connection simply are not going to work for me.

With a Steam free DVD version I can download the updates from the local library, or anywhere, to a flash drive. Then bring them home and install the update. Steam will not allow me to do this, unless Steam is installed on the "other" PC, this in my book is another point against Steam. Maybe it all boils down to the same point. But still, Steam only does mean that, here at least, they will be losing a customer. I know it probably doesn't mean much, but I have generally purchased at least two copies of each game that Egososft has realeased in the X series. Plus with the Superbox I now have 3 copies of each game, with an exception of XBTF and Xtension (I only have two copies of those).

Is the chance of gaining a bunch that may only buy one game, get bored and never purchase the next really worth losing loyal customers over?

If it is then maybe I should just leave now as I have probably already worn out my welcome here anyway.

Steam is portable, which means if you copy and past the steam directory to a USB device, will need to be a USB Extrernal hardrive, you can then run steam exe directly from this. This is actually what i do on 1 of my 3x HDs. To ensure when i reformat my main OS i do not need to re-install steam and the 40+ games i have on it.

So if you place steam on a USB drive big enough for steam and the game, you can then do the same thing. It works perfectly fine. That is another good thing about steam. HOWEVER! you will need access to your email account because steam does detect when you're on a new PC and will send a small 4 digit password to your email account to verify its you. (anti-hack measure in place). Once logged in on this libary PC you can then get it to download the updates for you. unplug the drive and then just take it with you.

Eggplant · Post by **Eggplant** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 18:47

Well what we (and I hope Egosoft) can learn from this thread is that Digital Distro one of many bussness model types. With Boxed being the other major model. Steam is just one of many Digital Distro sites. Using only one distro type in your bussness model will obviously allianate some coustomers and wont get the same level of market saturation as using muliple models. The problem that Egosoft will have to find out is ,"is it profitable to try to support all of them?" I personaly willl use steam (as long as it can be played in offline mode), but I hope that they can support multiiple formats so that everyone can enjoy the games!

dougeye · Post by **dougeye** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 18:57

gaming digital distribution is like music digital distribution.

im a dj and i love mixing vinyl but as most should know who buys music on vinyl these days??

vinyl = floppy discs

cd's = game dvds

mp3's = digital game downloads.

its a similar evolution if you think about it based not solely on the gaming industries decisions but global cultural trends.

unfortuantly some countries have not been able to keep up with the interenet boom of the last 15 years and hence why some people are going to have issues with internet connection, got no problem with some one saying i cannot use steam because of my interenet connection but attacking steam because it is steam is not realy an argument as far as this game is concerned.

TBV · Post by **TBV** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 19:41

dougeye wrote:who buys music on vinyl these days??

Actually, there is a shop just down the road from me called Plastic Wax that
seems to be doing reasonably well out of it, and according to my 17 year-old half sister it's rather fashionable these days. Go figure......

TEKing66 · Post by **TEKing66** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 20:00

@ the-danzorz

Thank you for sharing that knowledge, I have to wonder why the tech support at Steam has failed to mention that crucial piece of data. And apperantly, I had not run in to that on the tech support pages. I do have a 160 GB external HD laying here, and will give this a try. It will mean using a friends connection, which may not be able to happen until the weekend. But I will try this. So if you please enlighten me on a few things.

Could I take the Steam folder currently on my system, copy it to the external HD and be set to go? Or would I need to reinstall Steam to the external HD and then copy the game folders?

Now for a question concerning this, I'm on XP Pro 64-bit. My firends PC in Win 7 64-bit. Is that going to be an issue? Also, what does the Steam exe need to add to his PC registry, if anything? Just trying to figure out what issues I may run into there.

If this will work, then while I still think it is not an ideal situation, then it may be something I could live with. Even if only for Egosoft's games, I've already given up on Bethesda, among others.

But I do still stand my ground, and say I do prefer a Steam free DVD!
Personally, my experiences with Steam, thus far, have been terrible at best. Maybe trying what the-danzorz is suggesting will change my mind, maybe it won't. But I am willing to give it a try.

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 20:13

TEKing66 wrote:@ the-danzorz

Thank you for sharing that knowledge, I have to wonder why the tech support at Steam has failed to mention that crucial piece of data. And apperantly, I had not run in to that on the tech support pages. I do have a 160 GB external HD laying here, and will give this a try. It will mean using a friends connection, which may not be able to happen until the weekend. But I will try this. So if you please enlighten me on a few things.

Could I take the Steam folder currently on my system, copy it to the external HD and be set to go? Or would I need to reinstall Steam to the external HD and then copy the game folders?

Now for a question concerning this, I'm on XP Pro 64-bit. My firends PC in Win 7 64-bit. Is that going to be an issue? Also, what does the Steam exe need to add to his PC registry, if anything? Just trying to figure out what issues I may run into there.

If this will work, then while I still think it is not an ideal situation, then it may be something I could live with. Even if only for Egosoft's games, I've already given up on Bethesda, among others.

But I do still stand my ground, and say I do prefer a Steam free DVD!
Personally, my experiences with Steam, thus far, have been terrible at best. Maybe trying what the-danzorz is suggesting will change my mind, maybe it won't. But I am willing to give it a try.

Question 1) Do you need to install steam on the HD?
Nope, you simply copy and past and then you can load the steam exe directly off that HD and it runs fine in the OS

Question 2) The difference in operating system won't effect it at all, steam will update / install a windows 7 update for it to work fine. That hard drive version will then work fine with windows 7 by that small update.

However, once you have the X-Rebirth update simply copy and paste the rebirth directory across back to your system and not the whole steam directory, This will save any conflicts from happening.

I've used this method for years to stop myself re-installing games and went from XP-Vista to then Windows 7 without any issues. Even down graded my system without running into any problems at times.

Hope that is of some help

Edit:

I'm not sure valve knows that steam is portable to be honest, also they can't recommend doing it in-case of registry issues and they want to protect themselves. Mostly all software is portable but developers don't recomend it to ensure they aren't liable. thats all it is really but yeah it works perfectly fine and can demonstrate it

James Razor · Post by **James Razor** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 21:08

As long as Steam and Valve break german law and as long as Egosoft thinks they can punish me for purchasing a legal product by forcing me to use another 3rd party software that is well know for causing issues and violationg customer rights, i will not purchase Rebirth.

I tryed Steam, i didnt like it AT ALL. Not to mention that even those who think they can work with it offline once they activated the game are wrong.

Even some Windows Updates will let steam stop working and ask for reevaluation. Not to mention the privacy issues that it causes. Because even to date no know knows exactly what data is collected by it nor what valve does with it.

And i dont trust them even as far as i could through an M0.

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 22:08

James Razor wrote:As long as Steam and Valve break german law and as long as Egosoft thinks they can punish me for purchasing a legal product by forcing me to use another 3rd party software that is well know for causing issues and violationg customer rights, i will not purchase Rebirth.

I tryed Steam, i didnt like it AT ALL. Not to mention that even those who think they can work with it offline once they activated the game are wrong.

Even some Windows Updates will let steam stop working and ask for reevaluation. Not to mention the privacy issues that it causes. Because even to date no know knows exactly what data is collected by it nor what valve does with it.

And i dont trust them even as far as i could through an M0.

1) you have no evidence that Valve breaks German law in anyway, maybe another person with a misunderstanding of law.

2) I have proven before that you can play a game in offline for up too 3 months with no issues. I have not tested beyond this point and can ensure that it works in offline mode once activated.

3) I have used steam for .... god knows how many years. I used it on XP, Vista and windows 7 and always update my system. There has been no conflicts with the software. SOME games require you to re-valuate your game if it detects new hardware or major changes to your system. This does not stand for all steam games and applications. Proof of this is that i play my half life 2 episode 2 on the pc downstairs and the PC in my room depending on what is on tv. Yes i have a total of 3 PCs all with steam onit, all with different hardware and not all up to date. I have not once had a problem in over 4 years of doing this. Again no proof what so ever!

4) You tried steam and didn't like it, how long was this testing period for?

5) Steam can only collect certain information, steam client is pretty open and developers and hackers have had good looks at the code for verious reasons. If there was a privacy issue OF ANY KIND. then it would be the facebook privacy issue all over again but with steam. AGAIN no evidance to support your beliefs.

6) 3rd party software, well done for being not noticing ALL X-Games have included 3rd party DRM, Software, Drivers, Codex, Direct X etc. All of these are 3rd party software. that claim has died in this thread, it cannot be used!

If you don't like steam because you don't like it, just say that. Do throw around speculations that seemed to based on a closed mind.

I mean no disrespect by my post, but post like these are the reason this thread gets so heated. If you can provide evidance of your claims then at least we'll be approaching the issues openly. Not purely speculating on an already mixed based subject. It adds nothing to the thread.

henkbein · Post by **henkbein** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 22:12

Steam: I disagree with EULA.
Reason: No customer rights whatsoever. Canceling your account is no right.
Would i use Steam for Rebirth: Never

Still waiting for a confirmation that AP does not require Steam.

henkbein · Post by **henkbein** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 22:19

the-danzorz wrote: 2) I have proven before that you can play a game in offline for up too 3 months with no issues..

You have proved nothing. Up to 3 months can be 5 minutes just as well.

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 22:26

henkbein wrote:
the-danzorz wrote: 2) I have proven before that you can play a game in offline for up too 3 months with no issues..
You have proved nothing. Up to 3 months can be 5 minutes just as well.

I actually have before in this thread somewhere, no valid DRM will be asking you to go back online if it hasn't in 3 months. Standard practice is "everytime you enter the game or at least every month" there is no valid reason to have it longer then 3. Again this is purely based on a game to game basis. It is up to egosoft to set when they want you to revaulate the game if ever.

Seeing as TC has not asked me to go back online in those 3 months i was without internet. then its probably okay to speculate that X-rebirth will follow the same rules. However we don't know and its pointless to argue what will and won't work regarding offline mode to a game which 1) isn't released and 2) no one has stated the level of activation required for the game.

NUKLEAR-SLUG · Post by **NUKLEAR-SLUG** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 22:41

TEKing66 wrote:@ the-danzorz

Thank you for sharing that knowledge, I have to wonder why the tech support at Steam has failed to mention that crucial piece of data. And apperantly, I had not run in to that on the tech support pages. I do have a 160 GB external HD laying here, and will give this a try. It will mean using a friends connection, which may not be able to happen until the weekend. But I will try this. So if you please enlighten me on a few things.

Could I take the Steam folder currently on my system, copy it to the external HD and be set to go? Or would I need to reinstall Steam to the external HD and then copy the game folders?

Now for a question concerning this, I'm on XP Pro 64-bit. My firends PC in Win 7 64-bit. Is that going to be an issue? Also, what does the Steam exe need to add to his PC registry, if anything? Just trying to figure out what issues I may run into there.

If this will work, then while I still think it is not an ideal situation, then it may be something I could live with. Even if only for Egosoft's games, I've already given up on Bethesda, among others.

Steam is very well behaved as applications go. It lives in it's folder, doesn't spew files across your HDD and is generally quite portable, but not entirely. It does insert a few registry entries during install but that's about it

The entries themselves wouldn't cause any issues on your friends machine but, depending on how paranoid he is, he might not like the idea of orphan registry entries so there is the option of setting a system restore point beforehand which would sort that issue.

Alternatively I did hear of a guy who'd made a fully portable Steam install to run off a USB stick but it did have the caveat of modifying a few Steam files to do so. I'll have to look it up.

James Razor wrote:As long as Steam and Valve break german law and as long as Egosoft thinks they can punish me for purchasing a legal product by forcing me to use another 3rd party software that is well know for causing issues and violationg customer rights, i will not purchase Rebirth.

I tryed Steam, i didnt like it AT ALL. Not to mention that even those who think they can work with it offline once they activated the game are wrong.

Even some Windows Updates will let steam stop working and ask for reevaluation. Not to mention the privacy issues that it causes. Because even to date no know knows exactly what data is collected by it nor what valve does with it.

And i dont trust them even as far as i could through an M0.

What's the oxygen concentration like up on that soapbox of yours?

On a more serious note, were you planning to provide any supporting evidence for your wild claims?

the-danzorz · Post by **the-danzorz** » Tue, 10. Jan 12, 23:01

For those who required proof:

A Portable Steam Running In offline Mode Playing Portal 2

http://thedanzorlabs.com/steam/1.jpg - Offline Mode
http://thedanzorlabs.com/steam/2.jpg - Steam Open In Offline Mode
http://thedanzorlabs.com/steam/3.jpg - Portal 2 Running in Offline Mode

I don't think you can find a more steamworks related game then portal 2. but i may be wrong

Didn't need to go online
Didn't need to activate it again
It Can't check for updates like this so it is sorted

Freeman_79 · Post by **Freeman_79** » Wed, 11. Jan 12, 01:21

the-danzorz wrote:
Freeman_79 wrote:Just Pre-ordered the game... Without Steam ofc
How, i thought it was steam only? do explain as this will finally end this thread

Well I pre-ordered the game from a swedish retailer, not sure how it is in spain, but check multiple retailers, some should atleast have it under the category, pre-order or coming games etc.

I pre-ordered it from here, it is however a swedish site, but "BOKA" is the same as pre-order

http://www.webhallen.com/spel/pc/133353-x_rebirth

dougeye · Post by **dougeye** » Wed, 11. Jan 12, 09:06

Judging by the fact official packshots have not been released for these retailers to use they probably dont have a recommended spec list up either which is usually when things live steam works requirements etc are stated. you will probably find it labeled as a steam works game. I have bought many games (boxed) over the web from game UK only to find they are steamworks titles as most retails won't give you that information because the customer may think you know what why pay for postage and packaging i can just get it strait from steam so i think we should wait for the official responce before making assumptions

p.s i dont mind either way, the only reason i would pre-order a box is if there is a collectors edition with some cool stuff in it.

Burneyx · Post by **Burneyx** » Wed, 11. Jan 12, 09:53

henkbein wrote:Steam: I disagree with EULA.
Reason: No customer rights whatsoever. Canceling your account is no right.
Would i use Steam for Rebirth: Never

Still waiting for a confirmation that AP does not require Steam.

Totally agree to 100%

As long as Steam don't respect me as a paying customer that has right's according to german law, i won't give them any Cent at all.......

My workaround against Steam (XBox 360) for Skyrim is working nicely btw.

Im playing the DVD Version since 11.11.2011 and didn't conect once for any update at all (Firmware update has been included on DVD).

Highest char:

Woodelf lvl 61

Mainquest done (no bugs)
Civil War done (no bugs) freed the nords
All guild quests done, one reboot for the dark brotherhood quest (maybe because playing it over 8 hours with no break at all....)
All Thane quests done (owning all houses, including the given npc's)
All Deadra quests done (no bugs)
Countless minor quests done (no bugs)

Some minor problems with usable companians (wiki says pathfindung) but thats not an XBox only problem.

All in all an very good game expirience and thats what im paying for......

greetings

Burneyx

dougeye · Post by **dougeye** » Wed, 11. Jan 12, 10:50

Burneyx wrote:
henkbein wrote:Steam: I disagree with EULA.
Reason: No customer rights whatsoever. Canceling your account is no right.
Would i use Steam for Rebirth: Never

Still waiting for a confirmation that AP does not require Steam.

Totally agree to 100%

As long as Steam don't respect me as a paying customer that has right's according to german law, i won't give them any Cent at all.......

My workaround against Steam (XBox 360) for Skyrim is working nicely btw.

Im playing the DVD Version since 11.11.2011 and didn't conect once for any update at all (Firmware update has been included on DVD).

Highest char:

Woodelf lvl 61

Mainquest done (no bugs)
Civil War done (no bugs) freed the nords
All guild quests done, one reboot for the dark brotherhood quest (maybe because playing it over 8 hours with no break at all....)
All Thane quests done (owning all houses, including the given npc's)
All Deadra quests done (no bugs)
Countless minor quests done (no bugs)

Some minor problems with usable companians (wiki says pathfindung) but thats not an XBox only problem.

All in all an very good game expirience and thats what im paying for......

greetings

Burneyx

have you ever used games for windows?? at least steam works 99% of the time lol

NUKLEAR-SLUG · Post by **NUKLEAR-SLUG** » Wed, 11. Jan 12, 11:06

Burneyx wrote:As long as Steam don't respect me as a paying customer that has right's according to german law, i won't give them any Cent at all.......

And what rights are Steam denying you in contravention of German law?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Part three of Steam debate - split and archived.