[AP] War-zone Game-breaking AI Complaint

[Dakota-]

I'm going to start off by saying that I've always enjoyed the X2/X3 series and consider Egosoft's accomplishment to be, on the whole, epic and wonderful. I think the X series games are among the best games ever created.

I haven't found any other post about the following issue, and I am really wondering why. Perhaps I didn't look hard enough.



Summary:

There appears to be some very annoying scripted event that is triggered every time "the player" gates in and out of the war-zone sectors.

Fix this Egosoft.



Details:

I don't know if this is a bug or what, and I don't know if this is how it is in X3TC, X3R, etc. in some specific scenario, however, there is an AI mechanism (bug?) that is completely unrealistic, frustrating, and unfun that seems to only be implemented in the war zone (e.g. Omicron Lyrae and Treasure Chest).

As an example, I frequent Omicron Lyrae and Treasure Chest quite a bit. I'm relatively early into the Argon main plot. Any time I warp into or out of Omicron Lyrae or Treasure Chest the AI places ships at all the gates. I can sit in the sector for 30+ minutes without invaders, and certainly without this tactic being used by them. I am often in one of those two sectors for a long time (30 minutes - 2 hours). Most of the time the sector is completely unvisited by the enemy the entire time (after the initial wave). The ATF/Terran don't usually invade while I'm in the sector, and if they do, it's from one gate and somewhat low-intensity.

However, the exact second I leave the system (e.g. from Omicron Lyrae to Treasure Chest), invaders show up at both the gate I leave (Omicron Lyrae), and the gate I enter (Treasure Chest) and often other gates too.

Needless to say this is completely unrealistic. I could understand if I was running a fleet of 90 ships or something and they attempted to smartly ambush us, but this happens regardless of how many ships are flying with me (including just myself). It happens every time.

It is especially annoying and unfun when I am attempting to escort some TS ships I just bought out of the warzone.

As an example, I was in Omicron Lyrae having long-since cleared out all invaders. The zone was quiet for 30+ minutes. I was escorting two of my TS ships to their home system. I gated from Omicron Lyrae into Treasure Chest literally ~5 seconds ahead of the two TS ships (5x25MJ shields each). The exact second I entered Treasure Chest, my two TS ships that were still in OL were under attack by a M6 that was literally on top of them. It had just appeared in the time it took me to gate (a couple seconds). Due to this unrealistic ambush, one of my TSs died within about 3 seconds and the other almost died before it gated a couple seconds later.

In the previous 30 minutes tens/hundreds of other ships (including TS) were gating through those gates.

The second I gate, I am ambushed every time. The friendly ships are not ambushed in this way.

I can understand random attacks, but not attacks focused on me. The simulator is not simulating. My ships are no different than any other out there and yet the AI focuses on me.

It's lame and makes X3AP not fun.

[Catra]

this is how the spawning mechanism works.

when the player gates out of a war sector, an enemy fleet spawns at the gate.

these attacks are not focused on you, they only seem that way because your ships are right there when the enemy spawns.

[Dakota-]

this is how the spawning mechanism works.

when the player gates out of a war sector, an enemy fleet spawns at the gate.

these attacks are not focused on you, they only seem that way because your ships are right there when the enemy spawns.

From my perspective, these attacks are indeed focused on me because, as you described it, "this is how the spawning mechanism works. when the player gates..." [sic]

In other words, there needs to be a new/modified spawning mechanism.

Right now, with just a couple of minutes having thought about it, I can think of several very simple ways to make the spawning mechanism better; so that it doesn't ruin the fun and immersion of the game.

This is not sim behavior, this is action game behavior - and poorly scripted action game behavior at that.

[Catra]

then list em.

and the attacks are not focused on you. they are -caused- by you, but not focused on you. there is quite a difference between the 2 phrases.

[Dakota-]

then list em.

and the attacks are not focused on you. they are -caused- by you, but not focused on you. there is quite a difference between the 2 phrases.

List them for whom? For you? No. Why? It's a waste of time. I'm not writing this thread to prove that in a few minutes I can come up with the final and ultimate answer to a particular question.

I'm sure the devs can contact me personally if they need the ideas. I doubt they actually need the ideas, because the ideas are not particularly difficult to come up with or implement. The devs already have the spawning mechanism more-or-less right with the rest of the game anyway.

More than likely it was a mechanism implemented/tweaked in a rushed way. They simply need to go back and look at the details of how it works.

You misunderstood what I meant by focused. If you want to nitpick then you can consider yourself correct. They are caused by me, and focused on me when there are no other ships nearby. For all intents and purposes, the game focuses attacks on me as illustrated in my example. Especially given that my ships are clearly preferred to be attacked and the AI completely ignores other ships and crosses an entire sector in pursuit of my ships after having passed a dozen or so other similar ships and trailing an ever-growing cadre of ships in pursuit of the rogue/suicidal invader/pursuer.

I understand that this last part is something that should be in another thread due to the many variables in any particular ship confrontation, but is merely used to illustrate that the game is already skewed more towards the player in an action-oriented way than friendly NPCs and does not need more player-oriented skew than it already has; it is, after all, a simulator. Last I checked, wars don't operate based on the comings and goings of one particular typical citizen/soldier.

I am not going to respond to further pointless or argumentative responses. The intent of the thread is to allow a convenient place for the devs to see the particular issues with this mechanic/bug to facilitate a timely fix and allow others with the same problem to chime in. The intent of this thread is not to be a "conversation" or a place for fanboys to shoot down ideas or be hostile to those who don't share the consensus reality.

[Catra]

ah, no im not misunderstanding anything.

as i said in my first post, they are not focusing on you. your ships just happened to be the closest ships when the enemy spawned.

the spawning mechanism for the rest of the game is..terrible. they just spawn out of thin air in any part of the sector(very noticeable in xenon sectors).

atleast this way they atleast look like a credible force coming through the gate instead of looking like everyone has khaak level P2P jumpdrive technology.

so why even say you have better ideas how to do spawning when youre not willing to throw some into the convo?

[Neferdias]

It's bad scripting in an old game engine. Could have been done another way? Probably. Will they fix it? Depends on how much hate mail they've gotten about it.

So until the issue is dealt with by ES, or an unsigned script, there are two options.

1) Avoid the war sectors, keep your assets out of them, and don't purchase anything from those sectors.

2) Accept the losses and move on. It's war, it's doing what it's intended to do.

There are 7 war sectors in a universe with over 200 sectors. Anything you wanted to purchase in those sectors can be bought elsewhere. If your purchasing any of the OL exclusive ships because you want only argon... load up a magnetar with ships on board for spare JD's... enter the sector, clear the necessary gate guards, jump in the magnetar, defend it while it docks... purchase your ships, transfer JD and energy then jump them out. Trying to convoy them out is asking for trouble.

[Dakota-]

It's bad scripting in an old game engine. Could have been done another way? Probably. Will they fix it? Depends on how much hate mail they've gotten about it.

So until the issue is dealt with by ES, or an unsigned script, there are two options.

1) Avoid the war sectors, keep your assets out of them, and don't purchase anything from those sectors.

2) Accept the losses and move on. It's war, it's doing what it's intended to do.

There are 7 war sectors in a universe with over 200 sectors. Anything you wanted to purchase in those sectors can be bought elsewhere. If your purchasing any of the OL exclusive ships because you want only argon... load up a magnetar with ships on board for spare JD's... enter the sector, clear the necessary gate guards, jump in the magnetar, defend it while it docks... purchase your ships, transfer JD and energy then jump them out. Trying to convoy them out is asking for trouble.

Thank you for the helpful suggestions.

[LV]

all you need to do is get away from the enemy ships in OL and TC when you enter and then the local forces usually deal with them anyway once you are in sector, if not RRF will if they arrive


Got 7 psp's the other day and 3 emp's out of watching a battle

[Dakota-]

all you need to do is get away from the enemy ships in OL and TC when you enter and then the local forces usually deal with them anyway once you are in sector, if not RRF will if they arrive


Got 7 psp's the other day and 3 emp's out of watching a battle

Unfortunately, that appears to be an oversimplification and misunderstanding of the issue I brought up.

3 seconds (and I'm not exaggerating -- this has happened more than once and is not a fluke) is not enough for any ship (minus the kestrel) much less an NPC TS traveling 72m/s to get "in sector" or "away from the enemy."

[Afterburnerz]

Have a look at the topic on Page 6

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=312146

Absolutely agree that it is badly done - reminds me of a "cheap" FPS.

A much better way would have been to have the replacement ships put on a timer - easily done - and have them fly or jump into the sector.

The jumping into sector of replacements was done in X2 during Xenon Invasion missions.

----------------------------------------------

Have a great christmas everyone.

[Catra]

so, im prolly being dense here but,
what is the issue that you brought up?

[Virtualaughing]

Be happy ! The Terrans already afraid of you

[Kzorsh]

Hm i have a bit different problem ... I can fly in war sectors freely . No one ever attacks me . (Cause i'm so friendly to everyone ^_^)

BUT (!)

Every time my merchants appear in war sectors ... EVERY TIME ... spawns hostile Terran Katana and trying to kill them . I understand if it was done like pirates ambushing (pretty random) ... but these katanas spawn ... EVERYTIME
Why the hell ? Just attack me then ! Not my merchants ! What have they done to you, stupid terrans !?

[Catra]

so theyre smart and want to take out your logistic train....
whats the problem?

[all_other_names_taken]

so theyre smart and want to take out your logistic train....
whats the problem?

Even though this smells of trolling, I'll bite:
What's so "smart" about that? Why would they want to take out my logistics train? To ruin me? Well, IF that was their goal, they could have taken the shortcut and destroyed me personally while I was flying right in the middle of several M2s, M7s, M6s etc. in my poor M3. And they haven't. Our hulls nearly scratched eachother, and they haven't fired a single bullet at me. And why would they? I'm a "Warrior of Io". But then, why would they attack my ships while I'm not there?

I agree completely with OP that this needs to be fixed. Also, even though I blacklisted ALL of war zone + ALL Terran sectors, my UT still went to Asteroid belt and nearly got killed. I've also lost two Discoverers on a Deploy Satellite Network mission. There was no way for me to tell them not to go there and babysitting them defeats the point. All this time I had pretty high notoriety with Terrans.
If they don't attack me IS, they should also not attack me (that is, any of my property) OOS.
This whole war feature seems pretty rushed.
Also, there should be a start (even custom start) that doesn't include war. I want all the upgrades of AP over TC, but without this bugged war mechanic.

[StreetRat]

Not sure if it was stated, but the npcs that spawn DO go after your ships/assest first.

Ive had a ship 20km on top of a gate, watching a battle between 50 odd ships on top of the gate, im friendly to both sides, as soon as i jump out hostile npcs spawn at the gate, or trans orbital accelerator and go directly after my ship 20km away ignoring the other ships at the gate.
Only if there attacked do they stop and fight, otherwise it looks like there programmed to take out your asses first in a war zone, then disappear

I have seen this happen multiple times, 15 - 20 or so, since id rather watch a battle oos so theres no slide show missile spam.

[tatakau]

deleted

[Falcrack]

I have seen it where I enter a war sector and there are no enemy ships right at the gate. I placed a sat in the other sector and wait for the enemies to be cleared on the other side of the gate, then jump in, and no enemies. I actually don't know if they are coded to spawn as soon as you enter sector, I think though that they are there so often though that it seems that way

[Catra]

theyre coded to spawn when you leave, not enter.