Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[apricotslice]

here is a question:
is there life after steam?
i mean we know that X:rebirth is tied to steam at the moment and if no nonsteam version comes out, what then?
some of us might give in and get it, but some of us cant and so no game. speculating on future, if it works out on steam for egosoft, they will never go back to disc.... so what then. however if it doesnt, will egosoft go back to old methods. however, will we still be here holding out for x:rebirth or x:rebirth part 2 etc.

We have a chance to change the future or be consigned to a footnote of history of X:universe

As I said before, "Once you start down the steam path, forever will it dominate your destiny". (paraphrase)

They lose me now. Even if XR2 is non steam, the fact that I couldnt play XR would lose me to the series.

So going steam now, not only loses the sale for XR, it also loses the sales for XR2 and XR3.

One of the reasons I'm hanging on here. Once I leave formally, I seriously doubt I will be back.


On another note :

I cant get over how well the percentage is holding. Ok, so option 3 dropped 1% to 36%, but overall, options 1 and 3, being people who dont want steam running on their computer, is holding just under 50%.

That is amazing !

And also the poll is continuing to be found and voted on. There has been no real slow down in votes.

Thanks to the mods for their work on keeping this going.

apricotslice, ONLY 2 WEEKS, that is not resolve!
For a Disk version free of spy/malware, free from having to be tied to the internet to simply play a game?
For that I would be willing to wait a year for delivery, mind you it would be better if I could could go to the local high street store and buy it like any other PROPER game!

Ok, I meant 2 weeks waiting for the postal service.

As I said above though, once I'm gone, I'm probably gone for good. In a years time, I wont be looking for a non-steam version, and probably wont be here to hear about it.

[Antaran]

Also, why do people keep quoting 'more sales' as a reason to offer a non-steam product. Aside from the fact that this would most likely negatively impact the deal that egosoft has with steam (after all, with a steam exclusive, steam must be paying more), it will encourage more people to buy the game digitally.

If just a quarter of the people who bought a retail copy had bought it instead through a (or in this case the) digital download source, more of the money would have gone to the developer (in the above example using the witcher 2 sales figures and an example of the deal another developer had negotiated; if only 400k bought game, all through digital sales, then £8M would have been netted, as opposed to £6.4M from the 1M units sold - there is also the greater possibility that of the 600k that didn't buy it initially, more (but probably not the full 600k) would buy it later in the digital sales that would follow later).

At the end of the day, greed is what makes the world go round.

It will not encourage, it will force more people to purchase it via DD from steam, also as said in an earlier post, steam has 40% market share of the DD market, so why shouldn´t egosoft offer the game on more DD places and a disk based version?, that would maximize the sales, you act like steam is the only place this game can be sold, sure it might cut down the profit from steam but if steam has 40% of the DD market share then, since we have been quoting numbers it stands to reason that by using other DD stores and a disk based version egosoft would sell upto 250% of what they would sell exclusively on steam.

[BDK]

I would use something else, but not steam.

[Slashman]

Honestly, I cant imagine the devs having to write patches and download it off steam every time to test it. Likewise I cant see the devs being logged into steam for testing most exe code changes.

They must be writing patches and applying them manually for development and testing, and then bolting on the steam code as the last thing before release. (And if the whole steam code is not a module that can be bolted on, they are doing it the hard way !)

As such, releasing a patch that is the last thing before the steam stuff gets added, should be relatively simple.

If Steamworks is used, it means that it's integrated more into the game than just an afterthought(at least that's my understanding). That's the reason there would be a difference between TC and Rebirth. Steamworks integration would probably mean that they would be working with a codebase that has those elements integrated in the first place. So tacking on Steam at the end would not be how they would go about it for patching.

I'm not a dev though...you'd need to verify this from someone at Egosoft, or a developer that uses Steamworks for their games.

[teki]

*no vote*

If Rebirth offers any retail physical copy, without Steam or any 3rd party software install and/or activation, there would be no doubt I would buy the game.

Now all this talk about Steam is making this an uncertain purchase.

I think, I'll wait and see how it all goes before making a decision.

This could well be a very good choice of the publisher or a very bad one, and in such cases the publisher should focus upon what people actually do with their money, and not what they write in a forum they will do.

[strude]

Awwww, if it wasn't for Laden Swallow and slashman's comments, page 11 would have just been the anti Steam movement patting themselves on the back about how "strong" their position is, and arguing amongst themselves regarding details.

[Scarecrow]

Watching this thread is like watching my dog chase her tail

[apricotslice]

Watching this thread is like watching my dog chase her tail

Actually its more like pirana in a shark tank.

[Mightysword]

So, here I am, back from the Sword of the Stars 2 launch. First, it's pretty much a ****ed up launch, the game is buggy as hell and the the Kerboros/Paradox are scrambling to fix it. In a way, think about the X2's US launch and you have a pretty good idea. As how things goes there are probably a week or two before the game reach playable status. In any case, that's not what this thread about.

About Steam and how it's handled in this particular launched. According to Kerboros's CEO and Producers who had been providing some additional info on Steam (btw there were the guys I have been quoting for info in the previous thread) here are something I bet a lot of people don't know:

- Steam DRM: this is an option the developer can choose to turn on or off when they submit the game to steam.
- Steam Multiplayer: this is an optional premium service that Steam offers to developer for a royalty. A game doesn't have to use Steamwork for MP, in fact SoTS2 use Gamespy for MP.

And this ... the moment you all have been waiting for: the game ... DOES ... NOT ... NEED ... STEAM ... TO ... RUN !! Upon installation and activation, I turn off Steam and go directly into the bin folder, locate the executable, double click it and voila, the game runs without Steam running at all. To quote a Paradox's rep on another game on Steam:

After installation and activation, there is no difference between a Steam installed Sengoku and a DVD-installed Sengoku

Apparently that is true for SoTS2 as well, THIS IS NOT OFFLINE MODE, the game just runs like a stand alone game. So there, the next time someone says something about "off line mode not working or what I gonna do if Steam go out of business" ... YOU WILL GET PONNIED! ... BY ME!

So here are your easy step to play a "Steam activation game" without fuss:

- Install and activate on Steam.
- Turn off Steam from your task bar.
- Go to MS-Config and uncheck Steam so it doesn't launch the next time you start up.
- Go to the game's bin directory and make a shortcut for the game .exe. This is important, since if you use the default shorcut than most of the time it also doubles as a Steam launcher.


So you know ... after all these revelation about how Steam works from other publishers and developers, it seems Steam isn't this big bad devil people are making it out to be. There seems to be a lot of option for the developers on how much they want to tie their game to Steam. In case of Paradox and SoTS2, steams just server as an activation and patch distributing platform, it's not needed to run at all, on or off-line mode. So maybe instead of spending so much time demonizing Steam, maybe you should focus your attention to something else ... or lobby Egosoft into the same releasing model as Paradox ... that's way most people will be happy without relying on un-founded facts, hyperpothtical scenario and conspiracy theories, yes?

[VincentTH]

It all depend on the publisher. There is Steam install, and there is Steamworks API. They are 2 level of coupling with Steam.

Bernd has said the keyword: Steamworks, therefore the 110 page thread.

If it is just activation and then deinstall Steam, then I will buy the game.

[apricotslice]

So, here I am, back from the Sword of the Stars 2 launch. First, it's pretty much a ****ed up launch, the game is buggy as hell and the the Kerboros/Paradox are scrambling to fix it. In a way, think about the X2's US launch and you have a pretty good idea. As how things goes there are probably a week or two before the game reach playable status. In any case, that's not what this thread about.

Actually, yes it is. It has to do with the way the industry has gone, and the way steam actually accelerates the direction.

Its become normal to release bug filled games that wont play. Then you release a patch available at game release to address the worst of the bugs, and then you patch again a few weeks later, and again a month or so later. And keep patching until all the release bugs are fixed, that you decide you want to fix.

Steam just makes that process easier for the developer and gives them a crutch to lean on because steam makes sure that the game gets patched.

So they can release a bugged game, collect everyones money at release, and then steam promises people the patches later on.

Basically unacceptable. As far as I'm concerned, you push back the release date until you have a bug free game that runs straight out of the box.

And this ... the moment you all have been waiting for: the game ... DOES ... NOT ... NEED ... STEAM ... TO ... RUN !! Upon installation and activation, I turn off Steam and go directly into the bin folder, locate the executable, double click it and voila, the game runs without Steam running at all.

Ok, good, up to a point.

Except you just said the game was buggy as hell. If you dont have steam running, you dont get any patches and so dont have a runnable game.

Its the whole patch process that I object to, and the fact that this all encourages developers to release games that wont run without patching first.

As far as not needing steam is concerned, we will have to wait for Bernd to confirm if XR will be the same or not.

There is a difference between running steam all the time, even in offline mode, and being able to uninstall steam, and only reinstall steam for a patch once you know one is available, and your ready to download it. The latter is still not something I'm happy about, but if it works, then it might just be an acceptable workaround.

But your example also says, dont get XR when its released, because it will probably not run. Wait a few weeks for the first few patches and the ok from here that the game is stable and running fully, and then you plan when to install it according to when the net is stable and you have the bandwidth and download limit available that people say you need to get the patches.

It all hinges on if steam can be uninstalled though.

[Mightysword]

If it is just activation and then deinstall Steam, then I will buy the game.

Even though someone had mentioned that possible I'm not gonna test that. I have lots of game on Steam. Also it's not just activation, it's also patching as well. So in the event you can uninstall, I can imgine it will be a fuss to re-install it, re-link the game and apply the patch. Neither I see why you need to do that. Take out the start up launch option and Steam effectively is just a document file sitting on your computer and doing nothing until you activate it ... unless the 240mb it takes on the hard-drive is too much to be tolerable.

[apricotslice]

If it is just activation and then deinstall Steam, then I will buy the game.

Even though someone had mentioned that possible I'm not gonna test that. I have lots of game on Steam. Also it's not just activation, it's also patching as well. So in the event you can uninstall, I can imgine it will be a fuss to re-install it, re-link the game and apply the patch. Neither I see why you need to do that. Take out the start up launch option and Steam effectively is just a document file sitting on your computer and doing nothing until you activate it ... unless the 240mb it takes on the hard-drive is too much to be tolerable.

That assumes that the game wont demand that steam be running. That remains to be seen.

Personally, it depends on steams own options. As I've said before, if a program wants to run on startup and doesnt have a permanently turn it off option, I uninstall it.

[Mightysword]

Edit: delete for pointless discussion.

[apricotslice]

@Appriscot: before I answer you, I will need to say something that you feel like I'm rubbing your credential with salt ... I'm sorry if this will come out rather confrontational, but trust me when I say I'm not trying to offend you. But for a guy who only buy a game once in a blue moon I don't think you're in a position to make such a broad statement really. Me on the other hand, is quite a profilic gamers
.......
A new guy like you can just point at that and claim

A new guy like me ?

I'm 51. My first computer game was Star Trek on a mainframe uni computer in 1978. I wrote games on the Apple II. I sold PC's and games several times. I've played games for 30+ years.

Just because I dont play a huge variety of games doesnt mean I dont know the industry or seen how its deteriorated quality wise over the years.

There is nothing at all "new guy" about me. Except for steam, which has nothing I want anyway.

As I've also said before, I had to literally sign a form for X3 saying I knew it was bugged and wouldnt return it, before they would sell one out of the back room.

My concern, as also stated, is that steam just makes the whole process of releasing buggy games more palitable for the developers and publishers, who can point to the autopatch and say "sorry, but it will be patched soon, please hold on".

Your littany of failures just highlights my point that the industry itself has gone down the gurgler as for a quality control is concerned. But I see steam not as a saviour for them, but a crutch to allow them to continue the bad work.

No offense by the way. I actually find the "new guy" label quite funny.

The reason I only buy a game once in a blue moon is quite literally because no-one is making anything these days in my feild of interest, being space based. I dont buy because there is nothing to buy, from my perspective.

Thats one reason why I'm hanging in here. If XR goes steam, then its byebye to the only series currently being continued. With little or no hope of anything else coming out to replace it.

[Mightysword]

Edit: delete for pointless discussion.

[strude]

Personally, it depends on steams own options. As I've said before, if a program wants to run on startup and doesnt have a permanently turn it off option, I uninstall it.

And how many times we have told you that yes you can do that? Just go to Msconfig/starup and uncheck it. Really ... it's no difference than yahoo instant messenger, AIM or AV in this regard ...

Why go to all that trouble?

Steam menu -> Settings -> Interface Tab ->
[ external image ]
-> Untick

Not so hard was it. Next reason to boycott please!

[apricotslice]

You already proved to me yourself what you know about the subject when you asked "what the heck is indie" just a few days ago.

Let me put it to you this way.....

I like a large cross section of music from the mid 80's to now. 95% of what I like, I couldnt tell you the group or artist name, let alone what album it comes from. I really dont care, and I dont remember that kind of stuff. Same with games titles. I can remember some of the ones I really liked, but I couldnt tell you who made them or published them, nor do I actually care.

The name Egosoft sticks in my memory solely because its on the top of my screen every time I come here. Deepsilver I remember only because it was mentioned early in this debate, and keeps getting repeated. Most of the games mentioned here I dont remember because they never interested me, so I never even noted their names, let alone where they came from. The distinction "Indie" actually is just as uninteresting to me as their games are.

Just because I dont know the current "buzzwords" and care enough to want to know them, doesnt mean I know nothing. I asked simply because I got sick of a buzzword being bandied around with the assumption that everyone knew, and for a few brief seconds, I wanted to know. And it was a very brief few seconds I can tell you ! Not longer than the time it took to type it, because by the time I got an answer, I'd forgotten I'd asked.

Anyhoo.......where was I ? I forget. Doesnt matter.

What I do remember goes like this ... :

We are Steam of Borg. You will be assimilated. Resistence is futile.

I am Stand Alone Player. Assimilation is abhorent. Resistence is automatic.

[Mightysword]

yeah yeah, so now it's joker act when confront with a fact heh? Oh well should have guessed ... not the first time it happens.


In any case, what I said still stand about Steam requirement ... for those who actually care.

[apricotslice]

yeah yeah, so now it's joker act when confront with a fact heh?

"We demand the facts."
"No, we dont demand that."
"We demand an absence of facts."

(From memory, paraphrased, from the representatives of the Sages, Luminaries and other working thinkers association).

HHGTTG.



And yes, this is all a sad joke.