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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

apricotslice wrote:
strude wrote:
apricotslice wrote:Which totally ignores the fact that a very high percentage of steam sales are only for heavily discounted games during sale periods. And a high percentage of Steam users ONLY buy when prices are heavily discounted.
I didn't realise that. What are the percentages?
Ok, you got me there, no hard data.

But there have been plenty of people here state that they only buy steam games when heavily discounted, never at full price.

In fact, some have said thats why they use steam, because it is a cheap source of games.
It's a perk, but I buy plenty of games full price.

Usually if I buy something discounted, it's something I had no intention of buying at full price, so the discount is an extra sale, if it never got discounted I wouldn't buy it, steam, store, or whatever.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

KloHunt3r wrote:So even 10% of a sale is still better than 0% of a sale.
So let me turn that around on you.

Steam = no sale. How does Egosoft get any money from me if I wont buy a steam version ?

How many heavily discounted sales will make up for my lost full price sale ?

How many heavily discounted sales will make up for 218 (plus the german forum) lost full price sales ? That we know about ?

What about all the lost in store sales because people look at the box and ask "Whats this steam thingy ?", get an answer and put the box back on the shelf ?

Not to mention that the lost sales are as soon as the game is released, and the makeup sales are sometime down the track when steam decides to discount.

I dont see the sense in losing any full price sales.
GCU Grey Area
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Post by GCU Grey Area »

Chris0132 wrote:Unless of course you live in a cave with no internet, in which case have fun banging your pointy rocks together or something.
Right, so now having an insufficient internet connection to use steam effectively makes me some sort of paleolithic barbarian? Getting a bit fed up of all the insults used by steam people.:evil:
If you're stuck with a crappy internet connection there is very little that can be done about it short of moving house. Changing ISPs doesn't help, they all have to use the same wires.
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Post by A5PECT »

apricotslice wrote:How many heavily discounted sales will make up for 218 (plus the german forum) lost full price sales ? That we know about ?
It comes down to that hard data we don't have.

I'm guessing Deep Silver has those numbers (the sales records from Terran Conflict). So they expect to gain more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see if they actually do.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
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Post by andrewas »

fairywhipper wrote: however, that might not be solution as you install the game onto another computer with steam, doesnt it mean authentification is based on that computer?
Steam ties the game to you, via your steam account, rather than to a computer. You will need to log in once to authenticate after copying the game to your own computer, but there wont be a significant download involved in that process unless an update has been released since the copy was made. If you do try this keep Steam in offline mode because it will lock you out if it sees an update and isn't allowed to download it.
Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

You may be interested to know that according to steam, there are two and a half million people logged into it right this second.

Every single one of those people has access to the store page.

Assuming they click it maybe once a week, when X:R gets released and it goes on the new releases list, and the new releases banner at the top, chances are that those two and a half million people will see X:R, with links to its store page, trailers, screenshots, metacritic page and metascore, and a button next to it that lets them buy it instantly, probably with a few dollars knocked off it as many games get a slight discount just before release.

So it is almost certain that at the very least, two and a half million people will be a couple of clicks away from buying X:R, two and a half million people will see it advertised on the front page, and anyone who looks at it will see video immediately and get all sorts of info on it.

And of course, that's just at this point in time, in twelve hours there might be a different two and a half million people online.

I think, perhaps, that your two or three hundred people is a laughably small number.
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Chris0132 wrote:Unless of course you live in a cave with no internet, in which case have fun banging your pointy rocks together or something.
Right, so now having an insufficient internet connection to use steam effectively makes me some sort of paleolithic barbarian? Getting a bit fed up of all the insults used by steam people.:evil:
If you're stuck with a crappy internet connection there is very little that can be done about it short of moving house. Changing ISPs doesn't help, they all have to use the same wires.
Actually I was more making a joke at how weird it would be for me not to have internet access, it's sort of an essential part of my life, it connects me to the world far better than any other medium.

If your place of residence doesn't have decent internet, honestly whoever was in charge of building it is doing you a major disservice.
fairywhipper
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Post by fairywhipper »

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Chris0132 wrote:Unless of course you live in a cave with no internet, in which case have fun banging your pointy rocks together or something.
Right, so now having an insufficient internet connection to use steam effectively makes me some sort of paleolithic barbarian? Getting a bit fed up of all the insults used by steam people.:evil:
If you're stuck with a crappy internet connection there is very little that can be done about it short of moving house. Changing ISPs doesn't help, they all have to use the same wires.
Calm down, i'm only in the next door cave.... :lol:

look on the brightside, if the steam servers fail for whatever reason for several hours, then these guys will be banging keyboards :roll:
Given up gaming because of steam
Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

fairywhipper wrote:Calm down, i'm only in the next door cave.... :lol:

look on the brightside, if the steam servers fail for whatever reason for several hours, then these guys will be banging keyboards :roll:
Actually I tend to spontaneously grow a giant beard and scream incoherently while flinging my own poo at people.
strude
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Post by strude »

Chris0132 wrote:
fairywhipper wrote:Calm down, i'm only in the next door cave.... :lol:

look on the brightside, if the steam servers fail for whatever reason for several hours, then these guys will be banging keyboards :roll:
Actually I tend to spontaneously grow a giant beard and scream incoherently while flinging my own poo at people.
You too? I thought I was the only one!
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

KloHunt3r wrote:
apricotslice wrote:How many heavily discounted sales will make up for 218 (plus the german forum) lost full price sales ? That we know about ?
It comes down to that hard data we don't have.

I'm guessing Deep Silver has those numbers (the sales records from Terran Conflict). So they expect to gain more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see if they actually do.
I got the distinct impression it came as a shock to Bernd that they would lose any sales because of steam. The way he said what he did seemed to indicate it hadnt occured to him that any of us would refuse to buy because of steam.

I wouldnt be so sure that Deepsilver has factored in any loss of the current sales base.
A5PECT
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Post by A5PECT »

fairywhipper wrote:look on the brightside, if the steam servers fail for whatever reason for several hours, then these guys will be banging keyboards :roll:
Actually, I had a Steam client running on my laptop and accidentally turned off the WLAN switch. Steam was unexpectedly cut off from the server, but before I turned it back on, I tried running X3TC and to my surprise it fired up along with Steam without a fuss.

That's a personal experience, of course.
Admitting you have a problem is the first step in figuring out how to make it worse.
fairywhipper
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Post by fairywhipper »

Chris0132 wrote: Actually I was more making a joke at how weird it would be for me not to have internet access, it's sort of an essential part of my life, it connects me to the world far better than any other medium.

If your place of residence doesn't have decent internet, honestly whoever was in charge of building it is doing you a major disservice.

so basically you dont have a life outside the internet, should come and visit my cave sometime and bring some very long network cables :roll:

oh yea my cave was formed in 1925 ish, so had trouble with the internet even then :lol:

so your point being, if i dont live in a modern building (built since 2000), or have internet, i'm not connected to a social utopia built on a foundation of data bits that wraps you around a cocoon of isolated physical contact and maybe i might know of social mannerism to equate to my neo-nonconnected lifestyle... good one, now you know why i would rather stay isolationist than have always on internet social reliance.

ps. nothing personel, but it needed to be said, we dont always have the choices or the resources to do the things we like, so we make do with what we have. steam makes too much demands on my limited resources so i rather not use it.
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Chris0132
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Post by Chris0132 »

Socialising in person is lovely, but I would need to do little else but attend parties to be able to talk with people from all over the world, have nearly the sum of all human knowledge at my fingertips, and be able to basically talk to anyone I know whenever I like.

Good communication systems are wonderful things, and certainly don't preclude the use of other forms of communication. Like I said, it's just very jarring if I lose the internet for a long period of time, cuts me off from a lot of nice people I wouldn't be able to talk to otherwise, as well as the best reference library in the world.

Like I said, you're being done a disservice by not really being given the option.
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice »

Chris0132 wrote:You may be interested to know that according to steam, there are two and a half million people logged into it right this second.
Is that really 2.5 million people or several hundred thousand people and 2 million spambots ?

You cant go by what the program says is people logged in. They want you to think more people use it than actually do. And most of them dont care that the majority of registrations are not legit.

I had this argument with an admin on a forum once. He claimed the number of registered users as a justification for something, and then subsequently couldnt dispute that the actual number of users was a tiny fraction of that, and that most of the registrations had never posted because they couldnt. (Registration didnt have an effective spambot filter, but the forum itself was password protected. So Spambots could create as many registrations as they wanted to, just couldnt post.)

Now, I havent tried to register with steam, so I dont know what they use to keep out bots, but I seriously doubt what they do is adequate. And why should they care ? 2 million bots all trying to do something is actually good for their marketing image !
If your place of residence doesn't have decent internet, honestly whoever was in charge of building it is doing you a major disservice.
Decent high speed internet stopped dead here when the goverment legislated to require all cables to be underground. The phone companies made a last minute above ground roll out to beat the deadline, then stopped using cable. Everything built or service added after that has been first ADSL, which is slower than cable, and now forced wifi, which is slower again. Both ADSL and wifi suffer from continuous variable length signal drop outs. I just have to watch the 3G indicator on my phone to see how often there is no signal, and thats in the same place.

So its not a matter of who built the building. Its a matter of what the phone companies provide in terms of infrastructure, and what ISP's can do with it.

edit : That being said, for general internet use, there is no real problem.

The problem occurs with large file download or the need for continuous feed. So you can download 200mb at an average of 20, and then the handshake at the end times out and you have to do it again. And again. And again. The larger the file, the more likely it will fail part way and want to restart. Sound just plain doesnt work here. Cam works on ADSL, but not on wifi.

So net is fine for general usage, but what steam wants to do is just not on.

And this isnt going to change here anytime soon. The phone companies are forcing everyone to go wifi, and thats the least reliable service.

If we had decent fiberoptic cable into every house, then steam would be fine. But we dont, and probably never will have because it costs too much to dig up every street in the country to lay the cable.
Last edited by apricotslice on Fri, 28. Oct 11, 03:40, edited 1 time in total.
fairywhipper
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Post by fairywhipper »

For all the knowledge in the world means nothing if the wisdom to use it is not there.
the internet is a form of social connection, as it is global without nationalties or boarders, and we evolve new forms of social mannerism in order to make and maintain these connections, but in so doing so, we change the essence of social contact and mannerism.

you have the knowledge at your fingertips, then use the knowledge in a productive manner and gain more knowledge or use it in a destructive manner, then all you gain are the ashes of destruction.

Fairywhipper
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Mightysword
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Post by Mightysword »

KloHunt3r wrote:
apricotslice wrote:How many heavily discounted sales will make up for 218 (plus the german forum) lost full price sales ? That we know about ?
It comes down to that hard data we don't have.

I'm guessing Deep Silver has those numbers (the sales records from Terran Conflict). So they expect to gain more than they lose. We'll just have to wait and see if they actually do.
I have some hard number right here for you (which I posted a while back): 90% of Paradox sale revenue came from digital sale. And this is for when both hard-copy and digital sale are on the table. If they push for digital only, it won't effect those 90%, but some of the remaining 10% will certainly jump ship, not all but some. Balance that "lost" with streamline patching, easy of providing additional content, low cost distribution, and less DRM licensing ... I think the truth is pretty obvious no matter you want NOT to see it.


If you want number, I can tell it doesn't favor you.
Slashman
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Post by Slashman »

Is that really 2.5 million people or several hundred thousand people and 2 million spambots ?
apricotslice wrote:You cant go by what the program says is people logged in. They want you to think more people use it than actually do. And most of them dont care that the majority of registrations are not legit.

I had this argument with an admin on a forum once. He claimed the number of registered users as a justification for something, and then subsequently couldnt dispute that the actual number of users was a tiny fraction of that, and that most of the registrations had never posted because they couldnt. (Registration didnt have an effective spambot filter, but the forum itself was password protected. So Spambots could create as many registrations as they wanted to, just couldnt post.)

Now, I havent tried to register with steam, so I dont know what they use to keep out bots, but I seriously doubt what they do is adequate. And why should they care ? 2 million bots all trying to do something is actually good for their marketing image !
I don't think Steam has a very significant spambot problem. I've been using it since the Orangebox came out and I have never been in a game or community group with a Spambot. Not that there probably aren't spambots out there, but I'm doubting that the numbers are heavily influencing the Steam peak user count.

In addition to that, unless you are in a community group, you are very unlikely to see a spammer.

Also, the forums and Steam groups aren't connected via your Steam account. So a spammer on the forums doesn't necessarily have a Steam account and vice versa.

Apart from any personal experiences I have had, though, what you are saying would mean that all the developers who are selling games on Steam are either lying or being lied to by Valve(and Valve is paying them the difference on the sales numbers that they are being lied to about). That's a pretty unlikely scenario. And more than a little nuts...

More pertinent evidence would be how we can see small time developers continue to produce sequels and additional content for their Steam games.

A small title like Magicka sold over 800K copies. Those guys were working out of their college dorms or something like that. Now they have offices and can hire more staff. Link here

Same thing with the Bastion team.

You admitted you've been removed from gaming, so I can see how it might be hard to wrap your head around so many people embracing a platform like Steam or Impulse...but it happened.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.
strude
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Post by strude »

apricotslice wrote:
strude wrote:
apricotslice wrote:Which totally ignores the fact that a very high percentage of steam sales are only for heavily discounted games during sale periods. And a high percentage of Steam users ONLY buy when prices are heavily discounted.
I didn't realise that. What are the percentages?
Ok, you got me there, no hard data.

But there have been plenty of people here state that they only buy steam games when heavily discounted, never at full price.

In fact, some have said thats why they use steam, because it is a cheap source of games.
I had a think about this, and a potential answer is DLC. If Egosoft was contracted to provide a certain amount of DLC over 12 months say, it makes sense to sell the game at a discount to get people playing it. Then they can sell the DLC to more people, thus making more profit. DLC can be considered by some to be overpriced for what it is (especially for easily moddable games), and usually doesn't get any discounts until it comes in a DLC bundle pack. Because of the low individual cost per DLC, some people buy it just to have the complete game.

So now you might compare (game prices made up for example, but not a bad approximation I think)
*selling a full price game (say $50US), and then an expansion (say $30US) in 12 month
*selling a discounted game (say $30US), and then 12 lots of DLC (say $5US) over 12 months.

If everyone buys the discounted game and all the DLC, they'll stand to make more money. They only need to sell four DLC units per game to make up the shelf price, and people might be more inclined to buy one DLC a month for $5, to keep the game interesting over time.

Alternatively, in the 12 months before the expansion arrives, people may have become bored, moved on, and therefore not bother with the expansion at all.

Of course it's all dependant on the quality of DLC available, how people respond to the game, and the value players feel they are getting. These factors cannot be predicted without knowing how the game plays and what DLC may become available. There's lots more variables then just game price, when you consider DLC (not that there has been any confirmation that DLC will be made available).

It's much the same as printer manufacturers. They sell their printers very cheap in order to (dare I use the F word?) force consumers to buy the very expensive ink. That kind of backfired a little as third party companies now produce imitation ink cartridges at considerably less cost to the consumer, in much the same way as modders often produce content for free that is comparable to the DLC available.
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the old one
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steam

Post by the old one »

NUCLER-SLUG the answer is simple i trust egosoft,but steam is like having a second rectum, you dont what cr*p will come out next,the old one :rant: :P :P :P
Last edited by the old one on Fri, 28. Oct 11, 05:58, edited 1 time in total.
only steam i want is out of a kettle
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apricotslice
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Re: steam

Post by apricotslice »

the old one wrote:NUCLER-SLUG the anser is simple i trust egosoft,but steam is like having a second rectum, you dont what cr*p will come out next,the old one
:lol: :rofl: :headbang: :lol:

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