The jasmine revolution spreads?

[BeidAmmikon]

Libya conflict: EU awaits UN approval for deployment of ground troops
Yes, send them in. Send them to Qadafi. Wheee, fireworks! Coffins, even!

British troops go to Libya amid 'Vietnam' warnings
Good for them.

I just wanted to say something on the "liability" thingie that I like to bring about again and again.
I get the impression that these dictators or whatever the qualificative that "the West" is stamping them with have not made any plans for the future, except for putting money aside. Well, putting money aside is NOT sufficient. They should have thought about the probability that the way they were treating their people was to be considered a LIABILITY by their enemies. No freedom of expression, no political parties that would count in an (un-rigged) election, no bread and PCs for their subjects, well guys, you just asked for it. Now the UN is calling you out for being tyrants and despots, now the all-too-righteous, democratic "West" is bent on settings things straight in Islamic countries led by "oppressive" regimes, and your life is hanging by a thread, just like Saddam's. How stupid can you be not to design an operational, sane strategy, be it even an exit strategy that would have allowed you to preserve your life at least, after the flood that would sweep your country? How stupid can you be to believe that this behavior of yours towards millions of subjects can go on forever? All things end, particularly those of people's making. Your unmovable eyes have been covered in greed and chutzpah, while you could clearly see right in front of you the trends your enemies were setting. Living in palaces and star-spangled hotels, foreign, disenfranchised workers placing your countries on tourist and global economic power maps (Syriana, anyone?), tolerating hate towards "the West", oh boy how you asked for it. A war of civilizations indeed, you have summoned upon yourselves. Not upon yourselves only, though - a good thing would be if we would get rid of you, and not one of us would suffer from the consequences of your LIABILITIES that you encouraged so mindlessly. But this is not the case, as our coffins, not yours, will be parading in the streets. I so want the world cleared of such morons, not in the way the "UN" wants, but that their subjects get rid of them in such a way, that not one would rise again to bring disaster down on their people.
I HOPE that not our leaders, but we will get our lesson learned from LIABILITIES of stupid leaders.

(some of the engrish edited out)

[philip_hughes]

I'll switch over to your side for a sec Beid, and suggest that repression etc represents an OPPERTUNITY for western powers to make the changes they want without acting all tyrinnical.

Having said that, the people would be better off with some kind of democracy and I sincerely think the west is doing the right thing. Your point is also well made Beid. There will be coffins.

[Aye Capn]

Wow, Ammo, I think I might actually agree with you, but just to be sure I want to get a clarification that this is one of the things you meant to say:

"Dictators should treat their own citizens humanely lest they give The West an excuse to invade their countries."

Did you really mean to say that, or did I misunderstand?

[BeidAmmikon]

Wow, Ammo, I think I might actually agree with you, but just to be sure I want to get a clarification that this is one of the things you meant to say:

"Dictators should treat their own citizens humanely lest they give The West an excuse to invade their countries."

Did you really mean to say that, or did I misunderstand?

Invade, among other things like subverting the regime from within with the help of silenced opposition, economic sanctions etc. As for "humanely", well, what to say -a good example comes from Dune - Leto II, the God Emperor was killed for not treating his subjects "humanely".
Note that reaction to liabilities, or mistakes in the eyes of others, can apply to any leadership, in any country. It only takes for another to measure them by other standards, and there you go.
Looks like uniformity and unity in thought and action and "democracy" in all countries is best, for preventing "dictators" to appear and thrive. It's only logical. OR, we could get a single dictatorship getting hold on all countries, and there you have unity again...
Wings Over The World FTW!

PS Quotes have been used responsibly.

[Aye Capn]

Last question:

Do you consider this specific motivating effect to be a positive externality of what you otherwise consider to be Western imperialist overreach? Or do you think dictators "toeing the line" is a bad thing, and I can actually think of one reason off the top of my head why one might think that. (If you're interested I'll tell you.)

[Warenwolf]

Time to update this thread:

- Syrian regime rolls out the tanks

[BeidAmmikon]

Last question:
Do you consider this specific motivating effect to be a positive externality of what you otherwise consider to be Western imperialist overreach? Or do you think dictators "toeing the line" is a bad thing, and I can actually think of one reason off the top of my head why one might think that. (If you're interested I'll tell you.)

I believe this is evil either way, I see nothing good coming out of people getting murdered either at the hands of their rulers, or at the hands of foreign invaders, or at the hands of their brethren. I want that corrupt puppets who are leading millions of people to ruin to be exterminated, together with their masters. I've been seeing liberators coming in, taking over local leadership, buying the economy off, plundering the resources, destroying the country while taking profit off the dreams of an entire generation, then people seeking revenge on them, or laying down and dying in abandonment, or getting radical, while the chutzpah of the invaders is getting larger until, God willing, they will shuffle off back to where they belong. Like they did on many times in history. Italy, UK, Portugal, Belgium - specks on the map these days, their empires died out.
An Empire of Failed States

Tell me what you wanted to, I'm not sure The Cloud can give me a reliable hint on that.

[Aye Capn]

If a dictator is forced to behave too obsequiously toward some higher authority it undermines his own authority. "Great," you may think, "the people will have a democratic revolution!" That's fine if that's what happens, but if the result is civil war or anarchy that would be a bad thing.

The second problem is the cult of personality and its effect on certain people's self-esteem. Those people who become too heavily ego-invested in the strength and power of their leader will find themselves humiliated and shamed when their leader is forced to abase himself in front of an international audience. In a life of desperation the one thing people had to cling to to feel good about themselves, being part of a Great Man's vision, was ripped away from them. When the Leader is forced to lick boots so, vicariously, are his people, or at least those loyal to him.

There are some nationalist sensibilities that are violated as well. No American President could ever be forced to submit to weapons inspections of his private residences because no one forces America to do anything. China, India, Russia, none of these nations need submit to anything they don't want to submit to, either. Who's going to force a human rights issue with a major regional power? We're not going to jab a stick into the giant hornet's nest for something as unimportant to the global balance of power as human rights.
But your country (I use the hypothetical "you") is bending over for the weapons inspectors. In the public imagination it is not a dictator being compelled to behave but a nation being forced to submit that they perceive, and that angers them.

As an argument for allowing dictators to oppress people without limit it may be weak, but there it is.

[Gavrushka]

That's an accurate assessment of what it means to be powerful and it does make for very uncomfortable reading.

And a damning indictment of the effect that power has both on the individual and the nation.

It is difficult to remain optimistic about the future of society when you look at what we really are, overall - We are not altruistic, we are not benign, and very little is ever done purely because it is 'the right thing to do'.

[Aye Capn]

I put my faith in rational self-interest. So long as most people believe the only way they'll get ahead is by offering their fellow man something of value we'll get along just fine.

[BeidAmmikon]

I put my faith in rational self-interest. So long as most people believe the only way they'll get ahead is by offering their fellow man something of value we'll get along just fine.

Correct, but at the same time wishful thinking. I know it, you know it, and most probably even Ayn Rand knew it.

Now then. Back to the front. NATO bombing hospitals* (nothing really extraordinary here, yawn), a son of al-Qadafi was also caught in the rubble, and some of the British soil is bidding farewell to Libya.
"Days, not weeks", remember? There are 7 days in a week, so technically he didn't lie. Minutes, even.
I hope al-Qadafi will teach the globalists a lesson in good manners, even if his is the last "regime" givin'em teh finger.

* There are satellites that can discern a white button on a snow-covered area, while bombers miss their target. Riiight...

PS In other news, Superman got/went global

[Aye Capn]

I put my faith in rational self-interest. So long as most people believe the only way they'll get ahead is by offering their fellow man something of value we'll get along just fine.

Correct, but at the same time wishful thinking. I know it, you know it, and most probably even Ayn Rand knew it.

I choose not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Government as a percentage of GDP is a quantitative figure, so our conception of "good government" should also be quantitative -- pragmatism is our only path toward idealism.

[BugMeister]

sorry, but these people who steal from their own people and then shoot them if they protest, are beyond all rationale..

- from the Guardian, today:

"Switzerland, meanwhile, has frozen assets worth up to £585m connected to Gaddafi and the former presidents of Egypt and Tunisia.
Micheline Calmy-Rey, Switzerland's president and foreign minister, disclosed that of the total amount of frozen assets,
957m in Swiss francs, some SFr360m (£246m) is linked to Gaddafi and his associates,
SFr410m (£280m) is tied to Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president who stood down in February after 18 days of protests,
and SFr60m (£41m) to Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali, the Tunisian president who fled in January after an uprising."

- just pure evil..

[BeidAmmikon]

sorry, but these people who steal from their own people and then shoot them if they protest, are beyond all rationale..
- from the Guardian, today:
"Switzerland, meanwhile, has frozen assets worth up to £585m connected to Gaddafi and the former presidents of Egypt and Tunisia.
Micheline Calmy-Rey, Switzerland's president and foreign minister, disclosed that of the total amount of frozen assets, 957m in Swiss francs, some SFr360m (£246m) is linked to Gaddafi and his associates, SFr410m (£280m) is tied to Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president who stood down in February after 18 days of protests, and SFr60m (£41m) to Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali, the Tunisian president who fled in January after an uprising."
- just pure evil..

Yeah, nothing like those bonuses paid from taxpayers' money... except that they don't shoot you... well, ruining you is another matter

"Then it was reported that two of the banks receiving huge sums of taxpayers' money intended to push through substantial bonuses to large numbers of staff before any new rules prevented such payouts. Royal Bank of Scotland, which is being propped up with £20bn of public money and is 68 per cent owned by the Government, is preparing to make payouts to thousands of senior staff. And Lloyds, which has taken £17bn in rescue money, is to pay out hundreds of millions in bonuses. Barclays, which has tapped Bank of England loans and guarantees running into billions of pounds, is also thought to be planning to pay £1.7bn to traders in Wall Street under the terms of its acquisition of part of the collapsed Lehman Brothers."

Word goes, for instance, that Libya had free higher education, and the young married couples received money for building a house, until the West came in to democratize them.

[Aye Capn]

You said it. "Too big to fail" is never "too big to ram up the taxpayers' a$$es."

Here in the States the government went Brewster's Millions Crazy with the cash, with the government throwing money into everything, even bailing out car manufacturers in order to save the union pensions -- at taxpayer expense, of course.

Except the taxpayers didn't pay it up front -- the money was borrowed, so nobody from this generation had to feel too burdened by the spending binge. The next generation ... not so lucky.

[BugMeister]

Yeah, nothing like those bonuses paid from taxpayers' money... except that they don't shoot you... well, ruining you is another matter

- er, yes I agree entirely..

- absolutely "another matter"..