[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

[builder680]

Snake,

Anyone can make an argument 'for' or 'against' anything. In the end... in cases like this... it comes down to subjectivity or opinion. Since paulwheeler is the one maintaining this particular mod, his opinion is really the only one that matters. If he feels a ship doesn't belong, it's his decision.

I can find points I agree with for and against including it... but the fact is it just doesn't matter what I, or anyone else thinks. Neither I nor anyone else is maintaining this mod. Basically, if you *really* want the ship in SRM, I don't believe it's that difficult to edit it in yourself. Alternatively,you have the choice of not using SRM, and perhaps using Xtra instead.

I gotta say that overall, I agree with Paul on this one. The ship IS awesome looking, but it doesn't have much "alienness" to it. It doesn't look like something a spacefaring bug species would build to survive in space. It looks like something people would build in trying to imitate what a bug might build. It doesn't look "hive" like.

Sure, something like this can be said of EVERY ship, but to me it's just seems very apparent here. And it doesn't seem to follow an evolution in design from previous Kha'ak ships. I'm a VERY new player to this game, but even I can see this. There's no continuation. It's a complete break, and while evolution is good, I personally like evolution to appear to follow a pattern... so that it doesn't look jarringly out of place next to what came before it. In fact, I kind of feel the same way about a lot of the extra Kha'ak ships in SRM, especially the new fighters. Some of the MK 1 ships as well, though overall I like them, except maybe the Ray MK1. Not sure why they were included by Paul. But that's just my opinion. Which as we know isn't worth much.

I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of other ships, but again, it just doesn't matter. If the person maintaining the mod thinks it isn't a good fit, you may be better off trying to find a way to fit it yourself, or switching mods entirely. Raising point after point is just tiresome eventually, because every point has a counterpoint, and in the end only the points made by the person in charge matter.

[Mizuchi]

It's pretty tricky because the Asura looks just enough like the Ragnarok to see the influence, but just enough different to be an original ship that follows the "Next Generation" style of Kha'ak ships that Cadius is going for.

It's not as obvious as the Proteus and the Longsword, and it's only really the Asura.

But again, it's an incredible ship that clearly shows influences from another incredible ship from another IP (one of my favorites, in fact, so you're probably wondering why I'm not begging for it to be included).

If Paul includes it, then I won't cry foul; but if he leaves it out, then I certainly won't blame him for doing so and support him either way.

The influences in the M7 and TM are far more subtle (the TM barely shows any influence at all, and the M7 is something of a hybrid between "Old Generation" and "New Generation").

At the end of the day, we all love Cadius's ships, and we all love Paul's SRM.

I hope Cadius doesn't see this debate as any kind of comment on the creations he continues to make that we are (I hope) appreciative of, even if we can't agree on a fit.

[vkerinav]

[img]
Pictured: A Khaak Fleet and Stations.

Those ships look like they were just dumped in a pile. I'd expect an insectoid race to be a bit more organized.

[builder680]

As Mizuchi points out at the end of his post, I hope Cadius doesn't think from what I said that I don't like his ships. I think they're a fabulous display of his talent, and I absolutely love most of them, if not all.

It's just that a few don't seem to perfectly fit in this universe. Obviously this is just an opinion.

[Mizuchi]

I'd expect an insectoid race to be a bit more organized.

That's what they want you to think.

[vkerinav]

That's what they want you to think.

You're probably right. I recall reading about a study featuring hive species, just a few months ago. Their activities often appear chaotic, despite being quite organized.

Just wait 'till they swarm.

[Cadius]

Even if the Kha'ak do all look like Tupperware Shape O'Balls, the Asura is kind of a dramatic divergence from the Egosoft design - especially when placed side-by-side with vanilla Kha'ak ships.

Sure, something like this can be said of EVERY ship, but to me it's just seems very apparent here. And it doesn't seem to follow an evolution in design from previous Kha'ak ships. I'm a VERY new player to this game, but even I can see this. There's no continuation. It's a complete break, and while evolution is good, I personally like evolution to appear to follow a pattern... so that it doesn't look jarringly out of place next to what came before it.

But it's not supposed to have continuity or be placed side-by-side with vanilla Khaak ships. The Asura, Raksasha, Tiamat and Moloch, are supposed to replace the vanilla Khaak ships, which were left overs from X2. I would have the new fighters replace the old ones too if Khaak clusters weren't an issue.

I'm not arguing for or against here, just justifying my design decisions.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

But it's not supposed to have continuity or be placed side-by-side with vanilla Khaak ships. The Asura, Raksasha, Tiamat and Moloch, are supposed to replace the vanilla Khaak ships, which were left overs from X2. I would have the new fighters replace the old ones too if Khaak clusters weren't an issue.

I'm not arguing for or against here, just justifying my design decisions.

Cadius should not have to justify his design decisions, as individuals we either like the products or not. In the latter case, there are three options: accept the products and the effort gone into them, find alternate options more suited to your personal tastes, or do something yourself that you believe is better. If you have a better design idea, then why not present it if you can not model the ship yourself. Please could we have less of "model X is rubbish." and instead more of "specific model/design Y would be better".

On the subject of the design of the Kha'ak ships, it could be argued that the X Universe has not seen all the types of ships. The vanilla "pineapples" and "pyramids" may be just one variant/cast of Kha'ak.

EDIT: On a design front, there was quite a major break from the legacy X2 designs in X3R/X3TC: Argon, Boron, Teladi, Split, and Paranid ships all were remodelled (some a greater departure from X2 shape than others - e.g. Argon and Teladi) but the Kha'ak staid the same... it seems that the Kha'ak are overdue for a make-over.

[Sn4kemaster]

Snake,

Anyone can make an argument 'for' or 'against' anything. In the end... in cases like this... it comes down to subjectivity or opinion. Since paulwheeler is the one maintaining this particular mod, his opinion is really the only one that matters. If he feels a ship doesn't belong, it's his decision.
quote]

This i do agree with you on, but its not the descion not to include it that made me debate the point (which needed to be done), just simply that argument why, ie that it resembles something else and its too much of a change from the existing ship.

But of course i respect Pauls decision, as you said......its his mod and its just 1 ship.

Sure, something like this can be said of EVERY ship, but to me it's just seems very apparent here. And it doesn't seem to follow an evolution in design from previous Kha'ak ships. I'm a VERY new player to this game, but even I can see this. There's no continuation. It's a complete break, and while evolution is good, I personally like evolution to appear to follow a pattern... so that it doesn't look jarringly out of place next to what came before it. In fact, I kind of feel the same way about a lot of the extra Kha'ak ships in SRM, especially the new fighters. Some of the MK 1 ships as well, though overall I like them, except maybe the Ray MK1. Not sure why they were included by Paul. But that's just my opinion. Which as we know isn't worth much.

Just so you are aware (from your post it seems you dont) all the MK1 ships are the original Egosoft models from X2 that Killerog put into the SRM, the only reason im saying this, is as you have pointed out, there is no evolution in design from X2 to X3 Egosoft, didnt give a dime in keeping a tradition, they simply wanted to show off the new graphics engine of X3.......the only race that did not get a makeover in X3 was the Khaak........which is my point why it did not matter if the new ships looked so different

anyway as you said the my point has been made

[paulwheeler]

I think Cadius' designs are generally spot on. I just have this image in my head of Kha'ak ships and the vanilla capitals fit it better than this new design.

As was said above, in my opinion it looks like a ship built by people, not bugs. They are just not alien enough.

The vanilla ships - albeit with models that are far too simple - perfectly fit the design ethos of bugs in a hive in my opinion.



Anyway, the next update is huge. The changelog is already up to 35 points and I haven't updated the Xtra stuff yet.

MM6s are getting a major overhaul with lots more guns. I've also created a new engine sound for all the Xenon ships. I may leave Kha'ak engine sound till the next update unless I get a bit of extra spare time...

[Mizuchi]

Please could we have less of "model X is rubbish." and instead more of "specific model/design Y would be better".

As far as I can recall, nobody has said anything remotely akin to "Cadius's Kha'ak Ships Are Rubbish", and every stated arguement against their inclusion in the SRM has been supported with reasoning why, often based on design aesthetics and thematic compatibility.

Equally, no one has asked Cadius to justify his designs, as no justification was needed. Cadius did so of his own merit.

The tone has been very respectful of Cadius's work throughout this recent discussion, and - as previously stated - I don't think there's a single person who dislikes his creations at all.

In fact, part of the reason we (or, at least, I) enjoy the SRM so much is because of the new ships that will be added.

You can like the Bugatti Veyron without wanting to own or drive it, you know?

So... your wish was granted, I guess?

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Please could we have less of "model X is rubbish." and instead more of "specific model/design Y would be better".

As far as I can recall, nobody has said anything remotely akin to "Cadius's Kha'ak Ships Are Rubbish", and every stated arguement against their inclusion in the SRM has been supported with reasoning why, often based on design aesthetics and thematic compatibility.

I all too often see posts (across the breadth of the forum) pointing out the negatives without any mention of suggestions about what could be done to rectify it. The discussion about Cadius's ships not looking Kha'ak like (which prompted his response) was just a small footnote in my wider concerns about general feedback and attitudes on this forum (no specific examples just a general feel).

[Mizuchi]

Ah, okay. I have a strong idea in regards to what the sentiment you're talking about relates to, so no worries.

Just as long as you're not getting the impression that Cadius's good name is being slandered.

[Cadius]

Alright, no harm done, lets end this discussion here. Paul sorry for derailing your thread.

Anyway, the next update is huge. The changelog is already up to 35 points and I haven't updated the Xtra stuff yet.

Oh just need to point something out. It's crucial that you grab the ATF and Argon ship models and Terran Stations from the new version. They've been re-converted using the new X2BC tool and no longer need safety nets. Scene files remain pretty much the same, you might want to remove the entries pointing to safety_net to tidy things up, but shouldn't cause problems if you don't.

[paulwheeler]

Thanks for the heads up cadius. That makes my life a little easier.

[builder680]

I am not up to code on backstory and such, so if this is too much against X lore then nevermind.

Goners now have a shipyard with your mod, how much of a stretch would it be to give them an Equipment Dock (possibly with some typical Argon software)?

Mainly for tunings and rudder/cargo bay upgrades... lasers/missiles could be left off to fit more with their theme.

[johneh77]

Ok I just started using this mod I'm liking it so far. Mainly got it just so I could have TS that don't die constantly but I'm liking the M3s I've come across so far well except for the nerfed Falcons that used to have 1-2 200mw shields.

I Have run into one glitch a few ships (think I have seen 3 so far) Have "read text" something or other for a name. What did I screw up and how do I fix it?

[builder680]

Heya johneh77, nice to see you took the recommendations from your other thread to try out SRM. Once you really get into it, I'm sure you'll absolutely love it. It's awesome in its additions to the game.

As for your problem, I'm sure others may know right off hand what the deal is, but just in case, do you have some screenshots of what you're talking about? It may help them (or maybe even me) see exactly what's wrong.

I know that in another mod I had readtext showing up for Hotkey designations, but that turned out to be my fault for not installing t files right or something. I doubt that's the case here, but in any case they may be useful.

If you don't know a good place to host your screenshot, I'd suggest either Image Shack or Photo Bucket. Both sites allow you to upload pictures, and then you can link to them from here in a post. If you place an image directly in your post, I think they have to be smaller than 640x480 or something, and at that size it's hard to read the small text in X3. Better to link to a full size image that you upload to one of those sites.

[Neaera]

Just posting for thanking paulwheeler for his amazing contribution to X3 TC.

And also, when the new version of SRM is up, i'll take a look about "insert" the new khaak M2's design into SRM. And post a quick (and easy, if it's just a design remplacement, like paulwheeler do for his *Alternate Entry.txt*) tutorial about it, if it's okay with the respectives authors (paulwheeler and Cadius).

And also one for integrate Litcube's Saturn Complex Hub into the Tfactories.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

And also one for integrate Litcube's Saturn Complex Hub into the Tfactories.

Maybe Cadius/Paul would be nice enough to include placeholder entries in the base mod (c/f Xtra and LI_MOD7)