[MOD-TC]Ship Rebalance Mod:Continued v1.10b (27/6/11): Now Discontinued...

[paulwheeler]

Not sure if this is the place for it but it does revolve around the ship balancing in SRM so I thought I'd put it here. I can move it if this thread is best served with mod-specific troubleshooting.

Missile Frigate Balance -

Just watched one Nagoyan wipe out an entire sector of Xenon. If I'm not in sector it's no big deal. If I'm there, it's a vast swarm of torpedos that just obliterate everything in its path. A Z, a couple Qs, some Ks, the Station, Ps, PXs, fighters, everything. Less than 20 minutes to clean the system of Xenon. I'm finding that if I'm in system, missile frigates obliterate everything, even without the missile upgrade mod and while keeping MARS active.

If I'm not in system obviously the value of the missile swarm of death isn't calculated and M7Ms get destroyed easily.

Due to the area of effect in missile explosions a swarm of fighters isn't more effective. If I'm in system, M7Ms with a full hold of missiles (which is to say NPCs, since no PC is going to spend ~200,000,000 credits worth of missiles to wipe out some AGI) are unstoppable. If I'm fighting system by system, say reclaiming a Xenon system, I'll send a scout in system, identify enemy missile frigates, then send in M2s and M7s to specifically target the enemy missile ships (Ps in this case, if I remember correctly) and then jump in system after they're dead, so that my fighters and heavies get their full calculated killing power. NPC missile frigates can quickly and easily wipe out a fleet of M2s, M7s and M1s not to mention swarms of fighters.

Is this good or bad? The logic of a missile frigate for massive governments that don't mind dropping a billion a battle to ensure victory isn't unreasonable. Admittedly it totally eliminates the use of M8s unless an M7M isn't available, but still - is this a bad thing balance-wise? Am I doing something wrong? Missing something? A tactical approach that balances this advantage? Not every ship class is made equal - is the heavy missile ship the supreme trump card for those who can afford it?

The reason that a single M7M can wipe out a whole sector is the retarget ability of the Hammer Torpedo. The M7M fires all its torpedos at one target, once thats destroyed the remaining Hammers then find a new target and so on until all the Hammers are destroyed or they reach their range limit.

This will be changing with the next CMOD4 release. The Hammers and all the other Frigate and Bomber torpedos will be losing their retarget ability. Flails will keep it though.

Yes, the M7Ms are very good ships. They have a high price tag because of this. Also Hammers are very expensive too and if you realistically want to deploy an M7M you need to set up factories making the Hammers/Flails, which brings a lot of additional expense.

[Dragon93]

You got Xfire or Steam? Can discuss it all there.

I have issues with converting to bob with X2BC or Editor2; error with Editor (think it seems to think the files are in use) while X2BC - which i used to use instead - is bringing up errors too.
Paths are correct as it works in Model Viewer.

[GrieferBastard]

snip

The reason that a single M7M can wipe out a whole sector is the retarget ability of the Hammer Torpedo. The M7M fires all its torpedos at one target, once thats destroyed the remaining Hammers then find a new target and so on until all the Hammers are destroyed or they reach their range limit.

This will be changing with the next CMOD4 release. The Hammers and all the other Frigate and Bomber torpedos will be losing their retarget ability. Flails will keep it though.

Yes, the M7Ms are very good ships. They have a high price tag because of this. Also Hammers are very expensive too and if you realistically want to deploy an M7M you need to set up factories making the Hammers/Flails, which brings a lot of additional expense.

I can see where that would make a huge difference. Part of it may certainly be using the Improved Races mod - you get full sized fleets hammering it out from time to time and thus the crushing firepower of NPC driven M7Ms comes out more. Perhaps reduce the default stock of the heavy torpedos they deploy with stock? I've got to think that even the Terran fleet would have to hesitate at expending literally 40 or 50 M3s worth of missiles in a single engagement.

My question isn't on the price tag and viability of an M7M for the player to deploy - I think the balancing on that is excellent for the reasons you've already put forward, cost of purchase and supply, it's on balancing it with an NPCs ability to deploy it without regard for its cost and supply limitations. Glad to hear about the changes in the torpedos ability to retarget, the Flails already give me a proper amount of grief. Sometimes I'll just zip around the battlefield in a Starburst, staying back from the action and directing my ships then you hear that missile warning beep, turn to look and it seems like a galaxy full of moving stars is speeding your way....

Part of it as well is wanting a use for bombers. If a M7M can put 30 torpedos on target in the same time frame and is more likely to survive an engagement than 8 or 10 M8s it makes the bombers a bad investment.

Perhaps a front mounted turret for missile launches from a bomber so they can better match the M7Ms rate of fire? More shielding or more speed/maneuverability? There are M7Ms that can just about match most of the bombers speed.

[robalexhall]

I like your idea of changing the torpedos rather than getting into an arms race of improving turrets vs missiles.

[Dragon93]

On the topic of Bombers - though i can't say i have much experience with them - I have noticed they fail to be as useful or as powerful as say, Freespace.
Noticeable differences I'd say are a lack of real missiles/bombs/torpedos with tue Anti-Capital hitting power as well Freespace has a mix of fast assault bombers + slow moving gun boats with massive torpedoes (like a mini-M7M almost) and heavy armour/shielding.
A work load - and possible idea - would be to A) Adjust the torpedoes/weaponry of bombers to allow for their name sake and B) Perhaps adjust M8s models to give an M8 and M8+ (respectively, as early mentioned).

This would give an Anti-M6/7/Very Heavy Fighter role vs a Anti-M7/Cap/Gun Boat. With the (adjusted) weapons, shields, speed and turrets to match.


Ignore me if i'm wrong - but from old school Freespace; I come to expect more from a bomber (unless im completely wrong and ive missed the strengths of TC Bombers).

[paulwheeler]

You got Xfire or Steam? Can discuss it all there.

I have issues with converting to bob with X2BC or Editor2; error with Editor (think it seems to think the files are in use) while X2BC - which i used to use instead - is bringing up errors too.
Paths are correct as it works in Model Viewer.

Compiling with the X3 Editor doesn't work on Vista or Win 7.

When using X2bc, make sure you use the correct command line options. It should be:

x2bc -c --bob "filename.bod"

A common mistake is to forget the "--bob" bit.

I don't have steam or xfire, but my old fasioned email address is paulwheeler@revcorp.co.uk.

[paulwheeler]

RE: Bombers and M7Ms...

Hammers and Tomahawks both have very similar abilities and damage. The main advantage an M7M has is Flail compatibility and larger cargo space.

I am considering increasing the M8 cargo space, but I'm not sure about giving them flail compatibility...

Bombers come into their own when using the excellent HKP Enhanced Missile Barrage script. This lets you launch a barrage from multiple bombers or M7Ms at once. So if you have, say ten bombers in sector, they are the match of an M7M and they can launch more missiles simultaneously (one barrage from each bomber simultaneously).

[Runner]

I am trying the SRM again, after successfully running the correct unleashed script to make the game a bit more playable in terms of fps.

What I can observe now is that nearly all sectors I visit have two pirate harriers right at the gate I pass which just sit there and don't move, not even if I shoot them. Strange.

Also, whenever I take an escort mission, the frighters get spawned, but they also just sit there and don't move.

I have installed on a plain X3TC from steam the following components:
SRM
SRM HullPack Medium
SRM Shipyard pack
SRM Weapons dealers
the unleashed no civilians jobs files.

nothing else.
Why are those frighters not moving? What's up with the pirate harriers?

[paulwheeler]

I am trying the SRM again, after successfully running the correct unleashed script to make the game a bit more playable in terms of fps.

What I can observe now is that nearly all sectors I visit have two pirate harriers right at the gate I pass which just sit there and don't move, not even if I shoot them. Strange.

Also, whenever I take an escort mission, the frighters get spawned, but they also just sit there and don't move.

I have installed on a plain X3TC from steam the following components:
SRM
SRM HullPack Medium
SRM Shipyard pack
SRM Weapons dealers
the unleashed no civilians jobs files.

nothing else.
Why are those frighters not moving? What's up with the pirate harriers?

Certainly not base srm related.

Are you running any other scripts?

Could be a jobs or eed issue as there are other reports of issues with m5s getting stuck in loops. I suggest you report this in the jobs thread.

[GrieferBastard]

On M8s - I wasn't aware of the ability to combine their fire, that would help a lot. I wouldn't worry much about their ability to deploy Flail missiles, an increase in shields or speed would be nice though - admittedly all this may be mooted by some changes to missile performances.

HQ problems -

Couldn't find a reference to it but I can't seem to get my HQ to reverse engineer or scrap ships. They go in the que and nothing happens. Is there something else I need to do?

[Runner]

Certainly not base srm related.

Are you running any other scripts?

Could be a jobs or eed issue as there are other reports of issues with m5s getting stuck in loops. I suggest you report this in the jobs thread.

No, I am running only precisely what I described. The only change I did to the jobs is that I put the no-civilians jobs into the types folder of my x3 installation - just as described by the installation notes of them. Should I try removing them and see whether it improves?

Also, which jobs thread do you mean exactly?

[Runner]

More weirdness: When telling my autopilot to dock at a station, it says docking granted, but doesn't do anything. huh?

[JrK]

That means the station is full at the moment afaik. It waits until there is a spot.

[Runner]

I thought so too, until I used the old-fashioned manual comm-request-for-dock and got a permission, flew up there and could land in a perfectly empty dock ring. Every single time.

I am sick of landing manually though...

I wouldn't mind this as much as broken missions though. Why don't the ** escort frighters move?! Is there some script re-init I can use to fix it?

[paulwheeler]

I thought so too, until I used the old-fashioned manual comm-request-for-dock and got a permission, flew up there and could land in a perfectly empty dock ring. Every single time.

I am sick of landing manually though...

I wouldn't mind this as much as broken missions though. Why don't the ** escort frighters move?! Is there some script re-init I can use to fix it?

These issues are not being caused by the SRM. It goes nowhere near any of the things you are talking about. I think that if the SRM broke autopilot docking or any missions I'd have hoards of people complaining. But you're the first person to mention such an issue.

The jobs thread I mean is the srm jobs thread linked in the main srm post, but if you're not using that then there is no point.

I don't know what to suggest, but I am pretty certain that it's not the SRM causing your issues. Its just not that complicated. There is virtually no scripting in the base srm.

Did you start a new game or load an old save? If you loaded an old save then your problem is probably related to some mod or script you had installed before.

[Runner]

Ok, since when in doubt I believe the author, I did a complete reinstall and voila, everything is perfectly fine now. Even the stuttering in SETA went away.

Now I only wonder what went wrong the first time around. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[paulwheeler]

No problem. Glad you got it sorted.

[robalexhall]

In my new game I'm getting ready to buy my first TL.

It looks more reasonable to use a TL as a carrier with SRM which makes the choice more complex: so a question to SRM players, which did you go for and why?

[Requiemfang]

lot of people use the Orca or Elephant as a mini-carrier though... you gotta be careful when using these ships as they aren't built for combat lol

[robalexhall]

They have the shields for it with SRM. Like the big TS have the shields of an M6.