size of the community and the sense of modding

[MegaBurn]

Triaxx2, exactly.

[apricotslice]

What disappoints me is when one of the large groups actually solves a problem that many want solved, and then wont release it as a stand alone fix, either because the mod is secret, or is a long way from being released. Or they built it in such a way that it only works inside the mod, and/or they dont want to do a stand alone version.

Who cares ? We just want the fix, regardless of where it came from or why. And a lot of us dont want the rest of the mod anyway.

I dont see the point in secrecy in mods. If they were commercial and there was money involved (which I'm in the minority of actually supporting), then that is different.

But mods are free (even if some of us encourage donations), so why the secrecy ? Maybe someone can explain that sometime, because I dont get it.

LV : Lmao !

NDA : No Data Aquisition ?

What is multi-quote ?

[Requiemfang]

NDA = Non-disclosure agreement

means no one can give any info out about the project

[apricotslice]

As I said, if you dont sign it, no data aquisition.

[Trickmov]

But mods are free (even if some of us encourage donations), so why the secrecy ? Maybe someone can explain that sometime, because I dont get it.

The NDA is mainly for sureness about possible team-members. As was said already, there can be also leechers.

The secrecy is another thing. In my experience it's just too work-intensive to explain everything in detail to the community. That's everything time that goes off from modding time.
As I said above, just have a look into the XTC-pre-release-thread.
There are dozens of questions, if this or that will work, when the next news update will be there, if we can't give screenshots, when it's finished, why there are no further explanations, if not this or that can be included, etc.

In result this attention can be very pressing, thus it's best to avoid that.


Btw - most things were announced to the public

[EDIT:]

Because we want to talk about it, share what we're doing with the community, and show our progress. I know that those 'representing' the XTC mod got frustrated with us asking how it was going, but we had to keep asking, because it was separate, and secret. There was no evidence of progress so we were beginning to suspect it simply wasn't coming.

That is exactly the point, that I don't get - I mean we all know, that the modders do this in their free time, that they don't get paid for it, that there are no structures like in a real game company, thus why must some people continue to ask the same question again and again, when the answer is always "when it's done"?
Btw - as said most content was announced, and alone the fact, that there were team-members answering questions should be enough indication, that there is progress.

[ScRaT_GER]

Who cares ? We just want the fix, regardless of where it came from or why. And a lot of us dont want the rest of the mod anyway.

Then go ahead and extract the fix from the mod. It is not always easy to build a stand alone version of something, especially if you want to get things done. Because then you'll have to consider more things, since it has to work everywhere.
Additionally it requires more work to release a stand alone version, without any apparent benefit for the mod.

But mods are free (even if some of us encourage donations), so why the secrecy ? Maybe someone can explain that sometime, because I dont get it.

What secrecy?
During development I think it's clear why there is a certain amount of secrecy, since you don't want people to know the whole plot of the mod before it's even released. Additionally, almost nobody is interested in every little detail of the mod, so giving aways these information (which requires writing them, which in turn requires time) is not necessary.

After a mod is released, there is no secrecy anomore. Everyone can look at the sources and modify them.

Greetings,
ScRaT

[apricotslice]

Additionally it requires more work to release a stand alone version, without any apparent benefit for the mod.

Ah. So the mod is more important than the game ?

I mod to improve the game for people who think and play the same way I do. So my mods, scripts and MD's are all there for the benefit of the game or at least the benefit of players who want a fix to the same things I do. And most of them are in 2 different forms, a mod version and a stand alone version.

When did things become about the benefit of the mod ?

Isnt the mod supposed to be about the benefit of the game ?

When did the mod become more important than the game ?

[Trickmov]

@apricotslice: I think you're getting it wrong. Most smaller modifications add one or a few features to the game (or alter them).
Different to that, big mods try to give a completely new experience to the player. Thus making it "Vanilla"-compatible would contradict the main purpose of the mod.
For instance there are mods with new universes - how would you try to transfer that to Vanilla?

[ScRaT_GER]

Ah. So the mod is more important than the game ?

No, if you considered the first part of the sentence, you'd understand why I say that: I generally requires more work.

If someone is working on a mod, he wants to get the mod done. So that's his primary concern. Now, if someone wants to have a stand alone version of a certain feature, he can go ahead and extract it by himself, when the mod is released. To expect the modders to do a stand alone version of every feature along with the actual mod, is too much to ask for in my opinion.

Greetings,
ScRaT

[apricotslice]

I'm not talking about universes.

But hey, I see no reason at all for map changes not to be made available stand alone. So you play a normal game on a Babylon 5 map ? Someone might think that was cool !

Some may love the XTM map but not want all the bells and whistles (and the presumably gigantic download bandwidth). Why shouldnt it be available for them ? Obvious issues come to mind, but a mini-mod could be possible.

To expect the modders to do a stand alone version of every feature along with the actual mod, is too much to ask for in my opinion.

Speaking as a modder, I completely disagree.

Not every feature warrants a stand alone release. But a lot of them do. And if the modder has the game at heart, then they should take the time to do both. After all, the work is mainly done, it just needs to be tweaked for stand alone, not rewritten.

[Trickmov]

Extracting the map from the mod is just a few files... but all those features depending on those, like lore, races, eventually jobs/scripts are a completly different thing. They would be simply displaced in a Vanilla-game.

[apricotslice]

There is 2 problems with the "extract it yourself" thing.

1. Thats only available for modders and not the majority of players who might want the feature.

2. I've seen mods with warnings on them that people are not allowed to do that. XTM comes to mind, but maybe my memory is faulty. So even if you did, you could not redistribute it.

Trickmov, I did say mini-mod. Obviously the XTC map would also need some support files. And thats one reason why someone trying to extract it might miss a few essential files.

[Trickmov]

And what's wrong with honoring the mod-team by playing their complete thing, instead of taking just the things one likes out of it and throwing the rest (respectless) away?

At least it was intended as complete thing and not as customizable set of features.

[Skinmeister]

[apricotslice]

Where did "and releasing it to the public is a bonus." come from ?

About 95% of what I've modded and scripted has been released. Its rare I do something and dont release it.

And yes, I have done things for other people because they have asked for it, and no I dont use any of that.

[ScRaT_GER]

Not every feature warrants a stand alone release. But a lot of them do.

And who decides? Because I'm a team member of the ETNO mod, I'll give an example concerning it:

We have a completely new economy, meaning money for every station, ships being produced, ship ordering, etc..
Then someone comes along and wants the ship production/ordering for his game, too, but he doesn't want to use the mod.
But unfortunately the ship production/ordering highly depends on the financial system and other parts, like making the shipyards real factories. So what do you expect us to do?

And if the modder has the game at heart, then they should take the time to do both.

Yes, if the time is available. Atm I almost have no time working on the mod, because of university exams. So one has to prioritize - and I would always prioritize in favour of the mod.

After all, the work is mainly done, it just needs to be tweaked for stand alone, not rewritten.

As I've said, that's not always that easy. I have released a stand alone version of a certain script from the ETNO mod (but only in the german forum), but it required almost no extra work. If it had, I wouldn't have done it.

2. I've seen mods with warnings on them that people are not allowed to do that. XTM comes to mind, but maybe my memory is faulty. So even if you did, you could not redistribute it.

Yes, but that's a completely different problem.

MfG,
ScRaT

[Skinmeister]

[Observe]

Over the years in this community I have been approached by mod teams and even web sites asking me to sign an NDA (non-disclosure agreement). In such cases, the first thing I do is turn in the opposite direction and walk away.

The one and only reason for NDA with a non-commercial mod is because the team doesn't want others in the community to "steal their thunder" by releasing some "new" feature ahead of mod release. That is the whole basis for the secrecy madness.

I am not addressing any specific mod team or individual/s when I say secrecy/NDA's are community destroyers, and will eventually backfire on those who conduct themselves that way in my opinion.

Clearly it's a different story for commercial operations where money can be lost if intellectual information is leaked.

But, obviously people can choose whether they want NDA madness, or not. That's the beauty of things. The freedom to be absurd takes on many forms.

[Trickmov]

I also think, it's a bit over the top - but on the other side, if I am a trustable person, why should I not sign it, if it's that important for some person(s)?

[Observe]

I also think, it's a bit over the top - but on the other side, if I am a trustable person, why should I not sign it, if it's that important for some person(s)?

Reason to not sign an NDA's involving pursuit of my hobby, is because a big part of my enjoyment is sharing ideas with others. Depending on wording, NDA's generally prohibit sharing, and stifle community openness imo.

But like I said, it's clearly a choice. I'm just commenting on how I see the whole NDA/secrecy thing affecting the long-term health of community participation.