Requesting that economy overhaul.. (any mad hatters there?)

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 00:34

yes, yes, I'm very daft, I have absolutely no clue when it comes to scripting and some sort of complete and utter inability to comprehend the like (I like languages, but I hate computer languages, however basic)..

anyway, the query - I recently saw a rather funky looking XML document with many proposed fixes to the economy by Mad Hatter. Sure, we could wait for it to get implemented in a patch, but the likelihood of that.. well, I don't know, this is my first time buying an Egosoft product, though I hear they're good.

Anyway, point - a few people have mentioned possibly creating a mod script something package with the new economy in it if there was a demand.. so, um, I'm demanding. With a purtsy please and lots of sugar on top

If it's possible.

I really have absolutely no clue when it comes to just what these scripts can achieve.. I've been reading bits and pieces everywhere but I'm still waiting for it to go *click* in this thick head of mine.

MightyMidget · Post by **MightyMidget** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 01:20

you didn't make it very clear what you were askin for? You mentioned an economic overhaul... but care to be more specific? How would you have the economy work?

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 04:06

Ah, the economy overhaul I'm talking about is the one MadHatter proposed. He had a link to an excel file with details at http://24.106.63.98/trollz.nsf/vwmediaa ... conFix.xls

..only thing is, I can't seem to find his post since the last time I read it!! I don't know, I must be looking for the wrong terms or something.

The main thing I know was changed in it was the prices and profits of things and the advantages to upgrading/researching factories (or something like that - I haven't played far enough into the game to know enough about it all). Probably a bunch of other stuff as well, but what I liked was how in his proposal the more expensive a factory was, the more profitable it was. Rather than this whole thing we currently have where solar plants are the most profitable industry to get into (according to the forums, anyway)...

Anyway, he had the whole argument in his post and I agreed.. I was just hoping someone might say it's actually possible for us gamers to install such a script/modification.

Don't tell me I dreamt the whole post up..

MightyMidget · Post by **MightyMidget** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 04:36

Sounds like you only need to be able to mod to do this, i might just do this if/when i figure out how. Seems to me that the economy does need a fix. I'm more concerned with combat tho, its not challenging, and unless you like sim city that makes x2 kinda dull once you become a mogul. Still trading has its appeal, i'm sure i'll get around to makin an econ fix sooner or later if someone else doesn't, and it looks like someones already done my homework for me

.

Storm_Front · Post by **Storm_Front** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 04:38

Scribblette,
I think I found the post you were referring to. I bumped it up in the x-universe forum. Titled: Response to TD005013's Produtivity Plan. No you didn't dream it.

Mad Hatter · Post by **Mad Hatter** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 05:33

The one you are looking for is here:

http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22780

I have a new spreadsheet which is almost done. The new one adds a loss curve to compliment the profit curve, and the products are tweaked to balance manual trading. I am planning on making a mod for it as soon as its done (if its possible).

I posted a request for help on the xscripting forum, and I'll ask for the same help here...

I'm a developer by trade (so I'm not a total newb

), but I haven't done any scripting or modding with X2 yet. So I don't know whether I need to be looking at scripting or modding, or where to start.

All the changes that need to be made come in the following categories:

1. min/max product prices (I'm assuming the avg price is dynamic)
2. factory cost
3. energy consumption for factories (2/3 the original rate)
4. stock limit (factories and docks that have n/2 limits raised to n/10)

If someone can tell me if these changes can be made, and if so, where I need to go to find them, I'll make a fixed economy mod from my new spreadsheet.

If someone really wants to help, you can make a mod that changes the above things for a couple factories/products so I can see exactly how its done, and I'll plug in all the data to fix the rest of the economy.

the_conquerer_cgi · Post by **the_conquerer_cgi** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 05:47

You'll need to do modding for that, mostly. I mean you could probably script it all, but it'd be a lot easier to just unpack the dats. There are files called "TWareE.pck" that contain info for the wares.

All I've figured out for sure is the 10th column is the precentage variance. So a 75% variance (75 in the file) on E-Cells (of 16 average) will mean they will sell for 4 min and 28 max. The 9th column effects price, but that's not all... it also effects max stock. I set the e-cells to 2 (from 4), which made them cost 8 average, but also doubled stock from 5000 to 10000 (and I'm guessing doubled consumption).

I can't really find any documentation like what's out for ships and weapons, but if you want I could spend a few days figuring it out and crashing my game.

EDIT: Oh yeah, you can unpack dats/pcks with x2 patch. After you unpack all the dats, you must rename them, or move them somewhere else. Otherwise X2 won't use your modified info (unless you want to repack it every time you want to test a different setting). Same goes for pcks. Unpack, then move/rename. Better yet, if you have/get MSN, I'll be on all day tomorrow and we/I can do a joint effort to break the code, so to speak.

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 05:49

Yay!!! I wasn't dreaming!!

*goes to the relevant posts and looks*

I'd absolutely love it if you made a mod for this, MH

or whoever does!

..back to reading that thread about 'essential' scripts for the game, now..

Storm_Front · Post by **Storm_Front** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 06:19

the_conquerer_cgi wrote:You'll need to do modding for that, mostly. I mean you could probably script it all, but it'd be a lot easier to just unpack the dats. There are files called "TWareE.pck" that contain info for the wares.

All I've figured out for sure is the 10th column is the precentage variance. So a 75% variance (75 in the file) on E-Cells (of 16 average) will mean they will sell for 4 min and 28 max. The 9th column effects price, but that's not all... it also effects max stock. I set the e-cells to 2 (from 4), which made them cost 8 average, but also doubled stock from 5000 to 10000 (and I'm guessing doubled consumption).

I can't really find any documentation like what's out for ships and weapons, but if you want I could spend a few days figuring it out and crashing my game.EDIT: Oh yeah, you can unpack dats/pcks with x2 patch. After you unpack all the dats, you must rename them, or move them somewhere else. Otherwise X2 won't use your modified info (unless you want to repack it every time you want to test a different setting). Same goes for pcks. Unpack, then move/rename. Better yet, if you have/get MSN, I'll be on all day tomorrow and we/I can do a joint effort to break the code, so to speak.

If you're referring to the prices of ships, lasers, and rockets; those are in the Tships, Tlasers, and Trockets files. I have a utility recently uploaded at xscripting.com which labels the prices. Increase the # to increase price. Sorry it's zipped with winrar.

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 06:56

hey stormfront!! okay, so since you know how to do it with ships.. how long til you do it with the wares? *happy*

Storm_Front · Post by **Storm_Front** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 07:36

Scribblette wrote:hey stormfront!! okay, so since you know how to do it with ships.. how long til you do it with the wares? *happy*

Modding new prices for: Factories, Wares, Ships, Shields, Lasers, and Missiles is easy. Determining what the prices should be is the hard part. We need one of the experts to solve that for us, but once someone determines what the new prices should be, I'd love to help make the mod happen.

If we talk about modding the economy enough, maybe that will speed the v. 1.3 economy patch up.

_nox_ · Post by **_nox_** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 08:20

Scribblette wrote:
If it's possible.

It's all possible.

we are just not in agreement about what is desirable.

My strategy :

raise production of all second-tier resource suppliers to 4x instead of 1x.
raise storage levels of factories by 5x
increase effectiveness of NPC traders/suppliers (?)

benefits :

second tier factories become viable profitwise (cahoonas, wheat)
economy gets lubricated by having more resources in the loop
things are less twitchy due to small glitches
less cumbersome gameplay, due to having less support factories

I don't specifically have a problem with the profitability of SPPs. I think the problem is more that other factories are far under the curve than that SPP's are over it.

if we can agree to a plan, I am willing to help mod it.

(I a mod coder)

- spg

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 09:07

Then you want to bother that fellow called Mad Hatter - he could use your help, and he did post that XML doc with his proposed changes up there.. I'm sure if you could give guidelines on 'how' to do it all, we'd have a flurry of economy re-balancing mods in no time.

_nox_ · Post by **_nox_** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 09:14

I've made my comments. He and I disagree on the fundamentals of how to affect the macroeconomy. I'd like to hear some feedback from him before i go and do something unilateral.

- nox

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 09:58

Personally, I think the best way to find out would be, say, for both of you to create your own versions. You can work together on a mod framework without needing to agree on the data - I can't see any reason why I wouldn't want to try either mod!

Besides, there's no better way to test an idea than to actually implement it.. and have a bunch of eager X2 playing fools discover what works best the hard way

_nox_ · Post by **_nox_** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 10:02

Scribblette wrote:Personally, I think the best way to find out would be, say, for both of you to create your own versions. You can work together on a mod framework without needing to agree on the data - I can't see any reason why I wouldn't want to try either mod! :) Besides, there's no better way to test an idea than to actually implement it.. and have a bunch of eager X2 playing fools discover what works best the hard way :D

Well the other thing is that I reserve the possibility that I am completely mistaken. I want to hear his response before I decide how to proceed.

My solution isn't any harder to code/mod than his - we are just changing different factors.

- nox

the_conquerer_cgi · Post by **the_conquerer_cgi** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 15:06

Storm_Front wrote:If you're referring to the prices of ships, lasers, and rockets; those are in the Tships, Tlasers, and Trockets files. I have a utility recently uploaded at xscripting.com which labels the prices. Increase the # to increase price. Sorry it's zipped with winrar.

That is exactly what I mean: there is documentation on THOSE files and such, but nothing on the ware files. At least nothing a forum search has dug up here and at xscripting. By the way, I can tell you which columns are for sound effects in Tlasers and TBullets (they aren't marked in the current docs). Column 9 in Tlasers is the firing sound. Column 10 in TBullets is the impact sound, and column 26 of the same file is the bullet's ambient sound (the sound makes as it goes past you). Oh, and column 1 (or 26, I forget) of Tbullets is what the bullet looks like, or it's model, and column 14 is the bullet's characteristics. I was able to turn the mining laser into a super khaak derivative when I was bored one night. Maybe I'll add my notes to my copy of the X2Data.xml and upload it to xscripting.

Mad Hatter · Post by **Mad Hatter** » Sun, 15. Feb 04, 22:54

Okay, one easy one down...

Factory Cost is TFactories column 10 * 65.

Thanks Conquerer for the TWare column 10 % spread. Any idea where the multipliers are coming from? (Ecells are 4, factories are 65) Or how to change price without affecting stock levels?

EDIT: Changing the price for energy cells does indeed change consumption for all other factories (as well as stock level). So if you change the 4 to a 3 you get - Avg price 12, max stock 6666 (up 33%), global consumption 20 cells/min (up 33%).

Each TWare file seems to have its own price multiplier, which is easy enough to determine, and makes setting the approximate price easy enough. But without a way to isolate Avg Price from Stock Level and Consumption there may be no way to fix the economy.

Mad Hatter · Post by **Mad Hatter** » Mon, 16. Feb 04, 17:05

The 1:1 factory support ratio is maintained by price - not by production.

I've dug through all the Tware files and there doesn't seem to be anything in there to deal with things like cycle time, production yield, price multipliers, or the ridiculous price fixing for resources.

For that matter, there doesn't even seem to be anything to account for what factory makes what, or what resources are needed to make it.

Does anyone know if scripting gives you access to those things?

Scribblette · Post by **Scribblette** » Mon, 16. Feb 04, 20:39

ugh, sounds crappy.

Hey, if there's not enough detailed answers on this forum, check the xscripting forum out. I haven't been there yet myself

but it might be worth it.

*gets back to desperately working on fixing his framerate problem at even 800*600 with everything off*

Requesting that economy overhaul.. (any mad hatters there?)

Requesting that economy overhaul.. (any mad hatters there?)

Re: Requesting that economy overhaul.. (any mad hatters ther