Collecting ideas: multi-player in games like X3

[Doomed498]

If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.

I'm not so for this idea, because all I can see is someone having their station being attacked and then setting it to become invincible and then logging off...

As I mentioned before I used to run game servers and think the limit on M/Player should ideally be 8 to 12, the load usually fouls up the ethernet at some point so lag is a real pain.

I agree with this, although not so much about the lag part (I guess it would just depend on how much traffic the game made), but for the fact that if you started the get too many players, in a universe that is either the current size or even slightly larger, after a while of play the universe would begin to get cluttered with all the players ships and stations.

[parameter]

Hi Doomed, I found the lag tended to be due to some of the individual players computers being low spec, but we used to get a bottleneck around 12 players. Funny racing to a position, slotting three tango's and then freezing mid stride just as more tango's appear. Then unfreezing [ defrosting? ] in time to hear crappy voice saying, 'That'll teach him' and then lights out. Always tended to be the worst spec player that caused the lag. Usually a modem player!

[Graphil]

1 player flying the ship as in the current game.
Another player able to take control of a turret and use it.

[ReggieReddog]

I'm not sure it would be all that interesting to sit in a PPC turret for any length of time. I would be happy with just some better AI commands for the turrets. "Shoot capitals only" "Shoot nearest fighter" and some AI gun switching in the turrets would be nice.

But a fun way to do a deathmatch would be M1 vs M1, with the captain of the M1 acting as the commander and all the other players could jump in a turret or jump in a fighter as they see fit. Or maybe it would have to be a souped-up M1 that can do repairs.
I guess you could even throw in an M2 and an M6, which the top scorers can have first choice to select at the beginning of a round.

[mike_doyle]

Having played MP FPS games like Quake family games(no character/empire building) just reactions, up to 20 or 30 players on a server, LAN play is great

Also played NeverWinter Nights in Coop/PvP multiplayer - again in those games you don't build up an empire, you DO develop your character though.

A LAN based MP game where players log in to a shared server (headless, no graphics at least, ported to run on Linux/FreeBSD as well as Windows) game client on Windows/Mac.

Enable empire building-
- player owned fighters - piloted by players and/or AI
- player owned traders - piloted by players and/or AI
- Player owned Capitol ships - piloted by AI ???
- Player owned stations ?

Definitely restrict saving to when all players are docked at AI stations.

Have players auto-eject when player-ship destroyed. If they possess Salvage Insurance, have a Goner M5 or Goner M4 appear once hostiles are at least 6km away and "rescue" them (they end up as pilot of ship equipped with
- Nav Software
- Jump Drive
- No weapons
- Minimal shields
Salvage insurance means the rest of their empire and their bank balance is OK.

Without salvage insurance, they end up rescued by a Goner piloted M5
(which they keep) charged mucho credits for the rescue, say half a million. If they don't have that much credits, the Goners are free to re-posses any ships they have up to that amount, any remaining credits after selling of their ships/cargo transferred back to the player.

Alternately, have the Goners rescue mission simply jump in, pick up player, and drop them off at nearest ship yard. Fee (CR 500000)
payable if player has no salvage insurance. Up to player to purchase
a ship of their choice.

Course, if they're rescued by another player, then they don't pay the Goners. (make a Player Astronaut both un-killable, un-enslavable and able to be rescued even if the other player does not have a cargo life support system)

In an MP game, players playing in Co-op mode might supply
eachother with ships, jump-drive kits, etc essentially free of
charge, and/or for exorbitant amounts.

Regarding import/export between single player and multi-player - allow
player to import/export player ship, cargo and any docked fighters if docked at Goner Temple. Cash, other empire possessions, do not import/export.

[daedalao]

This is probably a little off, but I'd love to see the ability to acquire other corporations. Hostile takeover or not... It just sounds enticing to have to negotiate a takeover. Ousting members of said corporation... etc.

[ahercula]

Since the start I looked at the universe of X3 and tought: OMG if we just could have some kind of persistent universe like in Freelancer this would be my home.

So I believe that answers the question; make it like in Freelancer please, with all the possibilities of this amazing universe and game.

[em3e3]

If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.

I'm not so for this idea, because all I can see is someone having their station being attacked and then setting it to become invincible and then logging off...

Seems like this could be prevented easily. And, it opens up a new experience: if another player, real or AI attacks you or your property, you could put up a 'bounty' for their assasination, or capture of property. Other players could see this on the station BBSes, and contact you for the 'job'.

[fiksal]

hey, how could I've missed this thread

The co-op play is the most important thing to me in a multiplayer game.
Simple Deathmatch-like options do not interest me.

In games like X I'd be interested in two modes:

- custom skirmishes, between players, assigned into fleets/teams. Being able to easily communicate with other players and/or the fleet commander. Would be nice if NPC ships could participate too.

- empire building / quests / storyline play. Ability for few players to set up a game and play through X3 either on the same side or opposing factions / sides. Given the slow pace of the game, it'd be nice if the game could provide an easy enough way to enter and leave the game. Depending on the number of players, the game can be hosted by one of the players, and it won’t have to be always running (compare to MMO, that is).
How forgiving deaths, log ins and log offs - should be configurable. Balance can be similar to Single Player version.

[Jingleheimer]

An update to my last post, I think the best way of implementing multiplayer into the X universe would be through several modes, and they are:

1. Co-op (long-term scope with full features)
2. Deathmatch (short-term scope in a single sector)
3. Live Universe (Freelancer-like style without fleet/station ownership)

I disagree with those that think co-op multiplayer in X should allow people's property to be destroyed while they are away from the game. Yeah, it's more realistic; but it just aint very fun for the poor sap who got bum-rushed after they logged off. I'm not a SETA cheater, but think about using SETA for a few hours to come back and find your entire empire you've spent hundreds of hours on completely wiped out - with no save! I imagine many would contimplate suicide at this point.

My suggestion for Co-op would be to treat people's property as indestructable NPC's when they are away. Particularly, I'm talking about stations since they are not offensive in nature. Ships, on the other hand, I'm not so picky about if they get destroyed. It's not too difficult to dock your ships in a safe location.

Given the scale of X3, and the time it takes to progress, I think it would be difficult to incorporate multiplayer without significantly altering the gameplay. X3 is NOT a "get in and out quickly" kind of game. Multiplayer games tend to have a lot shorter scope/scale so people can stop and pick up where they left off later. This is what makes Freelancer's multiplayer work so well.

Many people are pointing to Freelancer as a great example -and I agree it is very good- but there is one major difference between Freelancer and X3 that affects multiplayer. Namely, that difference is the ownership of property. In Freelancer you only owned ships, and could only control one ship at a time. When you were done you'd simply fly to a station and save. The odds of a station being destroyed while you were away from the game were very low. Also, you had a lot less to lose in Freelancer by a ship getting destroyed. In X3, however, you have LOT more to lose in terms of property and hours spent. Progress is MUCH slower.

[Sithlordz]

I think there should be around five modes. Deathmatch for fast-paced m5-m3 free-for-all gameplay, last man standing wins. Team Deathmatch, DM only with teams. Fleet battle, which is a sort of RTS/Spaceflight hybrid. One person is a commander, who builds and researches ships. There are designated spawn points where ships of different types spawn, like a few shipyards where fighters are periodically spawned.

Once the commander has been decided upon, he/she can upgrade shipyards to generate bigger, better and more ships, research tech to improve ships like faster fire rates, better shielding, etc. and also build ships for players who request them.

For instance, someone wants a Nova to attack a small enemy mining outpost, so they request the ship, and the commander accepts that request and builds it at their HQ, where the player then goes to pick it up. That's another thing, shipbuilding should be covered by Ore, that is generated by ore mines set up by the commander, which should be used to create ships and research tech. Of course, the commander can be voted by a majority vote so if you're stuck with a nub, you can get rid of them. If you've played an old space combat game called allegiance, you'll know what this gametype is like.

The fourth mode should be some kind of Neverwinter Nights style playing universe, where players can create their character with certain attributes, then play as them in a world that can be created by players, or packed with the game its self.

The fifth, and final mode should be some kind of mission mode, where a group of players, either co-operatively or against each other, work towards a goal. Like, for example, you have to escort an Argon Mammoth to, say, Priest's Pity for whatever reason, but, of course, there's a group of enemy players who want to stop you. One team works to keep the Mammoth alive, and another works to destroy it. 6v6 upwards should do, perhaps with AI controlled companions to spice things up a bit.

Anyway, that's my two pence. Keep up the excellent work, Egosoft, here's hoping for X4 with online sometime soon

[silentWitness]

My suggestion for multiplayer is perhaps a strange one: Better AI.

NPC ships should be able to protect themselves effectively, each ship should be a challenge to take down.

Combat AI needs to be strengthened across the board. E.g. TS ships should turn to keep their turrets on you, while flying evasively, sending out distress calls, or attempting to jump out if you're too powerful.

[Nanook]

I personally won't be buying any X game that includes multiplayer, simply because it won't be all it could have been as a strictly single player game. Any time spent developing the multiplayer aspect is time that isn't spent improving upon the single player parts. If a decent MMO can be developed for the X-Universe, I'd consider playing that, but the limited multiplayer being described here simply has no appeal for me. When I play games with friends, I like to look them in the eye as they're about to go down to defeat.

[AngryAndroid]

I have played these games from Elite 2 - Frontier, right up to Enjoying X3 (got it after Bal Gi patch). I've played so many multiplayer games, from FPS's to Eve Online and many more. I love gaming but have learn't over a period of time, nothing is a substitute for real depth and thought.

Sure, tack on a DM game to X4. It will be a nice aside. Or go down the route of developing a huge competitor to something like EO. I don't really feel that either has a good chance of setting the X universe on fire first time around though.

It would be fantastic if a seperate mini-X-online game was released with X4. Combine the best bits of the fantastic universe and story that has been developed, but don't simply use the engine with some alterations or bits cut out. Instead, add things in. Tactical fleet battles, BSG or ST/SW type scenes of huge ships going at it. Re-enginere the engine to allow player to player decisions on a scale not applicable to the standard SP game. Experiment with an enhanced (rather than watered down) online game, that focuses more intently on specific areas.

That would be what I would want out of X-online the first time around.

[Doomed498]

Hi Doomed, I found the lag tended to be due to some of the individual players computers being low spec, but we used to get a bottleneck around 12 players. Funny racing to a position, slotting three tango's and then freezing mid stride just as more tango's appear. Then unfreezing [ defrosting? ] in time to hear crappy voice saying, 'That'll teach him' and then lights out. Always tended to be the worst spec player that caused the lag. Usually a modem player!

Hi parameter, I wouldn't have thought that the lag would've been so much a problem now, not with the uptake of broadband. Also I would expect that most people who want to play online games have broadband, because most recent games require it. Hopefully the game wouldn't need too high spec of a computer though, so even those with slightly older computers can play.

I'm not sure it would be all that interesting to sit in a PPC turret for any length of time. I would be happy with just some better AI commands for the turrets. "Shoot capitals only" "Shoot nearest fighter" and some AI gun switching in the turrets would be nice.

Yeah, I agree, I think that the fun or sitting in a PPC turret would wear of pretty quickly, although going gunner in a freighter might still be an interesting game type anyway.

Have players auto-eject when player-ship destroyed. If they possess Salvage Insurance, have a Goner M5 or Goner M4 appear once hostiles are at least 6km away and "rescue" them (they end up as pilot of ship equipped with
- Nav Software
- Jump Drive
- No weapons
- Minimal shields
Salvage insurance means the rest of their empire and their bank balance is OK.

I like this idea, but wouldn't that mean that people could just camp outside combat range after you were destroyed and then return to kill your weak new ship?

If you're not playing, you can set which ships/stations continue trading, and are subject to damage/loss, and which stations/ships become 'invincible' or at least untouched.

I'm not so for this idea, because all I can see is someone having their station being attacked and then setting it to become invincible and then logging off...

Seems like this could be prevented easily. And, it opens up a new experience: if another player, real or AI attacks you or your property, you could put up a 'bounty' for their assasination, or capture of property. Other players could see this on the station BBSes, and contact you for the 'job'.

I don't see how it could be prevented though, penalties for logging off in combat? I guess I just like the idea of having everything attackable when you log off too much!

The bounty idea is pretty good though, sort of like the bounty hunters guild script for X3 I guess. Extending this to having a BBS where you could post jobs might be good, you want some extra firepower for an invasion or just need a freighter (or gunner), you post a job on the BBS and other players can contact you about it. Gives players the option of being a mercenary I guess.

I disagree with those that think co-op multiplayer in X should allow people's property to be destroyed while they are away from the game. Yeah, it's more realistic; but it just aint very fun for the poor sap who got bum-rushed after they logged off. I'm not a SETA cheater, but think about using SETA for a few hours to come back and find your entire empire you've spent hundreds of hours on completely wiped out - with no save! I imagine many would contimplate suicide at this point.

Yeah that's true, although I'm guessing there would be no SETA in multiplayer. I'm still for having everything destroyable though, if you didn't want your property destroyed you could either defend it with ships and lasertowers, or place it in a sector that already has a lot of NPC security. Or you could always find somewhere really remote to place it, but that mightn't be the best choice...

Many people are pointing to Freelancer as a great example -and I agree it is very good- but there is one major difference between Freelancer and X3 that affects multiplayer. Namely, that difference is the ownership of property. In Freelancer you only owned ships, and could only control one ship at a time. When you were done you'd simply fly to a station and save. The odds of a station being destroyed while you were away from the game were very low. Also, you had a lot less to lose in Freelancer by a ship getting destroyed. In X3, however, you have LOT more to lose in terms of property and hours spent. Progress is MUCH slower.

Again, this is true, I think the game would have to be rebalanced in terms of the time it takes to make credits/gain reputation, because if there was no SETA, progress really would be much slower. If credits could be made faster (not too much faster though..) this would fix this as the loss wouldn't be so much. Maybe if there were good BBS missions to choose from, either from NPC or other players? So in addition the player having traders make money, they could also do missions.

RTS/Spaceflight hybrid. One person is a commander, who builds and researches ships. There are designated spawn points where ships of different types spawn, like a few shipyards where fighters are periodically spawned.

That would be pretty interesting as a game type, I have played Allegiance and it's awesome! I'd like this as a gametype, although I'd still prefer the coop...

The fourth mode should be some kind of Neverwinter Nights style playing universe, where players can create their character with certain attributes, then play as them in a world that can be created by players, or packed with the game its self.

That could be interesting, but would these sort of ideas be moving too far away from X games?

My suggestion for multiplayer is perhaps a strange one: Better AI.

NPC ships should be able to protect themselves effectively, each ship should be a challenge to take down.

Combat AI needs to be strengthened across the board. E.g. TS ships should turn to keep their turrets on you, while flying evasively, sending out distress calls, or attempting to jump out if you're too powerful.

Yeah, AI will definitely need to be improved. Especially things like pathfinding and collision avoidance. Having your ships destroyed because they collided with an asteroid or your complex is annoying enough in X3, but if it was multiplayer it'd be incredibly annoying, mainly because if you were up against other players, you'd need all the ships you can get...

[moggy2]

How about thinking outside the box. Instead of multiple players in 1 universe, how about interactions between single player games?

For instance, exporting goods you create in your factories to other peoples games. God could place other player's stations instead of just more ai stations. Stock levels would be generated in the original game, and just updated via the internet, when the games were running.

Another way could be posting of bounties on objects in your game. These would apear as normal missions in other peoples games with ai targets created, but when the mark is killed, it's removed from your game too. Imagine someone with a khaak invasion, but who doesn't have the ships to deal with it. they could post a bounty on the invasion ships, and someone else, in another game, deals with the invasion, picks up the bounty, and the original player gets the sector cleared.

Perhaps even an online bartering system. Can't wait another 4 hours for thhe last PPCs you need? perhaps someone else has some they'd sell to you.

[PHOENIX_X]

I got an idea, some poeple might know the game Guild wars. It is fairly good and it might be able to implement it to X3.

What I am thinking is:

There is the single player mode as usual, you play get your money etc. Once you think you are ready there is a "special gate" aka multiplayer. You will be transported into a new sector(or severel sectors) from there you can take "quests" or go "loot" xenon. You can only save in those 4 sectors and once you leave them you are on your own aka, a new universe is created for you to complete different quests and stuff. Before you however go to do those quests, you can gather people that want to join your group.
Then there could be Deathmatch sectors, RPG style boss sectors, exploration sectors, etc.

This whole idea would give us the feeling of a MMORPG but it wouldn't be (at least not as resource greedy).

Pix aka Phoenix

[fiksal]

I am now starting to wonder how Bernd is planning on reading through all that!

April fool's day is far away....

... interns?

God could place other player's stations instead of just more ai stations. Stock levels would be generated in the original game, and just updated via the internet, when the games were running.

there'd be a lot of "magic" happening then. From appearing and disappearing products to magical hull damage.

Another way could be posting of bounties on objects in your game. These would apear as normal missions in other peoples games with ai targets created, but when the mark is killed, it's removed from your game too.

I like this idea better... still, "randomly" exploding ships will take away a bit of realism, for me.

To go a bit further along the same lines, one could let the ships jump between the two/n-number player universes.
Either through system of gates or gateless kinda jumps (like jump to Khaak space).

Hm, actually, that's not a too terrible idea, that would mean that the (total) size of the Universe would be dynamic.
One obvious problem would be that the two universes, if allowed, may start trading with each other... which will cause chaos once you disconnect.

[moggy2]

...
there'd be a lot of "magic" happening then. From appearing and disappearing products to magical hull damage.
....

Not particularly. The station produces goods in it's original universe, then uploads how much is available for purches to a central server. The instances of this station, created by GOD, in other games then check to see how much they can sell. When it's sold, the central server is notified, reduces the amount and lets the original game know that it's been sold, earning the original station money.
As for hull damage, it's a case of every station for himself. You could damage or destroy an instance of someone elses station in your game, but that would only affect your game. In their game their station would be fine.

And for the magically disappearing ships, I don't recall anyone complaining that asteroids only respawned when the player couldn't see it happening in X2. Same thing could be done for ships disappearing dues to bounties being fulfilled.

[aka1nas]

To go a bit further along the same lines, one could let the ships jump between the two/n-number player universes.
Either through system of gates or gateless kinda jumps (like jump to Khaak space).

Hm, actually, that's not a too terrible idea, that would mean that the (total) size of the Universe would be dynamic.
One obvious problem would be that the two universes, if allowed, may start trading with each other... which will cause chaos once you disconnect.

That idea seems like the cleanest way to do multiplayer and could be a lot of fun. It wouldn't suspend disbelief too badly to have the a jumpgate leading to another player's server re-align or become inactive, as it does supposedly happen in the X-universe at times. Nor would you necessarily be able to communicate with property in that universe without gate access.

Maybe a little more automation for fleets would make things more balanced, such as being able to set your ships to automatically jump back to your server if there is a disconnection(the two X clients would have to agree to honor this behavior, with the "foreign" universe removing the ships on disconnect and the "home" universe respawning them outside the jumpgate leading to that universe). This way if you decided to invade a player's universe they couldn't just disconnect you and cause you to lose an entire fleet.

It would also allow some pretty cool things like extremely large universes as I am sure that plenty of folks around here would be willing to run dedicated servers and link them. When I have an X-game going strong I usually let it run almost 24/7 anyway, so I would be up for that.