is the New Hyperion M7 too powerful?

[Freeza-CII]

Considering that the the Front guns are all Beta HEPT and the 2 front turrets are Gamma PSG capable Make this ship to powerfull. Sure it has a low recharge but it doesnt matter when you can kill things rather fast.

Its suppose to be between a M6 and a M2. That is a little hard to do when M6 was there to place a gap between a M3 and M2. There really wasnt any gap to fill. Besides its suppose to be a yaht for a high ranking political figure. It wouldnt really have much weapon power because that person wouldnt go any were in the universe with out a hoard of M3 fighters. At best it would have Turrets with fast quick guns for missile defence. Its doesnt add any balance to the game because its the only M7. And there not really needed.

It reminds me of what the Osprey was in X2. A Total Noob ship that any person can climb into and feel safe from the danger of getting killed by a hoard of rapaging Xenon/Khaak/Pirates.

That just brings up the M3+ but that is for another thread.

[Occam]

Like soeme of the posts above, I believe the M7 is powerful but not all conquering. Flying through Khaak sectors can leave me re-loading.

It does show up flaws in the bigger vessels and, as a vessel, it does need to be l;arger and slower - but not much.

Mine generally sits and defends my factories - I only use it when what I want to do is too hard or too longwinded in my Chimera.

Back to the old argument though - don't like it? Sell it or blow it up...

[Varlis]

I do not think it is too powerful.

For me, there are 3 dimensions to a ship's power / usefulness:

1.) in sector
2.) out of sector
3.) usefulness per capita (i.e. cost/price efficiency)

1.) In sector the M7 is not too strong. It is a great ship, but I believe most people forget that the M6 have been nerfed to near-uselessness and the M7 just took the place the Osprey had in X2. It does not have PPCs, it does not have FLAKs or PBEs. PSGs are great and massively powerful, but only in xenon and (to a lesser degree) pirate space.
You can take out everything in it - exept maybe clear khaak sectors. But that is true for nearly every ship >M6, so why should that be too powerful?
The 2 fighters you can dock are great, as is its own ability to dock anywhere. But that is just comfortable, not superior power. Just saves time and not even that much. (I use the python + LX combo and it works great)

2.) OOS - Yes very powerful. Or let me put it the other way. It is the 2nd best OOS defense that you can have and there is no random pirate convoy and no xenon patrol that can endanger it. [This is not true for TLs anymore - xenon patrols can take them out.] You can dock anywhere to resupply. Since it is also cheaper than any M1/M2 you can buy, logic would dictate it should dominate OOS. But:

3.) It's price is steep. It costs more than 10 million to manufacture (+resources) and ~20hours of game time. Yes - you can get a lot M7s if you play long, but then money wouldn't be an issue, so the price advantage over M1/M2s diminishes. Additionally - if you RE the Xenon K it is much cheaper and faster to built, so why should anyone bother with the M7?

My conclusion:

Great ship in the early game phase when you cannot buy a M2 with your pocket money or lack the race ranks.
Still a strong ship in the medium game, while you raise your combat and trade rank and expand your empire. Although some players will replace it as their personal ship at this point and get a M1/M2. (Clearing khaak and xenon space is the quickest way to earn money and rank and the best ship for this is a destroyer or carrier)
In late game, the xenon K will dominate the production line of the HQ. No question about it. So no additional M7s.

Congratulations to anyone how actually finished my overexentive rant.

[Occam]

Varlis - Great, well thought out, rounded and coherent post. What on Earth are you doing on this Forum!

[jlehtone]

I have to agree with Varlis. The time needed to build one is the price, and it is not cheap. There was no proper (ie "safe") OOS patrol ship before. I use Raptors and Hydras for OOS. But Raptor and Elephant are lumbering beasts if you visit the sector. And M6's get into trouble if you step in. I was chasing a rare Pirate Nova Raider with intent to capture. My patrol of two Dragons got there first. The PNR killed one Dragon hands down.

Of course one could ask if it is "right" to have a patrol ship that can survive (all) encouters and can also catch and kill most bypassers. Constantly reinforcing sector patrols that do die is not fun. And the 20+ hours price of M7 is "right". I could send six Raptors out there right now. Six Hyperions will probably take couple months.

Personal ship is personal ship. You either fly the ship you have access to, or the ship you like. That is up to you. I do prefer Dragon to M7 and M3+.

X2 M6 were "overly powerful", so Ego changed them. Yet, I find X3 Dragon more powerful (in some cases) than X2 Dragon. Never liked the X2 Osprey.

Homeworld had the classic "stone-paper-scissor". But Homeworld did not have personal ship. AI flew every ship. That makes a huge difference. When every ship may be a "personal ship", ships tend to be more general. Besides, if you fly LX and face a lone LX, do you have a 50-50 chance to win? "stone-paper-scissor" model assumes that.

[Fresshness]

With the Hyperion you cannot clear Xenon sectors (or at least efficiently).

The Hyperion is the best fighter in the game, but it does not make the game unbalanced.

[maverick82]

If the Hyperion is a fighter than I am Gengis Khan...

[jlehtone]

If dogfighting is about hanging in the tail of enemy fighter until your front guns decimate the target, and if only fighters dogfight, then M2 is a fighter too. Well, most M2, except Phoenix. Phoenix has to resort to one of the earliest forms of aerial attacks; it rams that pesky opponent.

[pjknibbs]

Of course one could ask if it is "right" to have a patrol ship that can survive (all) encouters and can also catch and kill most bypassers. Constantly reinforcing sector patrols that do die is not fun. And the 20+ hours price of M7 is "right". I could send six Raptors out there right now. Six Hyperions will probably take couple months.

Thing is, if the ships were rebalanced as I suggested earlier, the M7 would still be as good at both in-sector and OOS as it is now--OK, a little slower, but once it reaches the opponent the opponent is dead; lots of turrets makes for good in-sector action, and OOS the numbers game is the same either way. The M6s, on the other hand, would be much better IN sector than they currently are because they could make good use of their huge frontal firepower.

I'm not suggesting this arrangement would be perfect, but I firmly believe it would be better than the status quo.

[Fresshness]

If the Hyperion is a fighter than I am Gengis Khan...

Ah, the purist nit-pickers are never satisfied.

Well then, it's the best corvette in the game. Better now? sheesh

Please forgive me for not totally going up in the lingo.

[efernal]

park it & never use it again. Your problem has been solved.

................................NEXT!................................

[pjknibbs]

A lot of people are coming up with that argument. Just one problem--it's cobblers. Should one never allow oneself to use a Teladi Phoenix because of its bugged shield recharge? Should you never build a Spacefuel Distillery because they make enormous amounts of money? These things are given to you as part of the game, and I really don't see the point of NOT using them--I just want them to be more satisfying when I DO. Also, no amount of "NOT" using ships is going to make the M6 class worth flying, is it?

[jlehtone]

Thing is, if the ships were rebalanced as I suggested earlier, the M7 would still be as good at both in-sector and OOS as it is now--OK, a little slower, but once it reaches the opponent the opponent is dead; lots of turrets makes for good in-sector action, and OOS the numbers game is the same either way. The M6s, on the other hand, would be much better IN sector than they currently are because they could make good use of their huge frontal firepower.

You are right. But the main problem seems to be with M6 and not M7. Part of it is the drastic change between what was known as X2 "M6" and the X3 "M6". X2 M3 was the slowest combat ship wasn't it? X3 changed that to more linear (inverse) correlation with size (or firepower):
M2 < M1 < TL < M6 < M3 < M4 < M5
Naturally, real physics in space does not force bigger to be slower, and thus there were threads complaining about it. But having a Carrier faster than its fighters (like X2 had) is odd too. But for freighters, TL still outruns most TS. Osprey is oddity M6 for being slower than TL of the same race.

If this (quite reasonable) design priciple would have been followed in 2.0, particularly M7 being "between M2 and M6", we should see:
M2 < M7 < M6 < M3+ < M3 < M4
But no, that is not how they are. M7 outruns M6 by far (compare to Nemesis), and M3+ outruns most M3's. Thus, we see the re-emergence of a theme from X2.

M6 is the underdog. In sector, it fails to hit the enemy with its massive firepower. It does seem like it should target capital ships. As personal ship it can do that somewhat, but so can fighters. One could add agility, or one could move the firepower into turrets. The idea may have been to force the player to add fighter escorts for the M6. But escorts do not really help the ship to hit fast targets. And what does happen when M6 and its escorts do an attack run on FAA platform, up and close?

I had a Xenon Taxi run. 40-50 L's. I did send Python off the ecliptic. All FAA. All turrets on "Attack all enemies". When there, told it to "Standby". Then I flew my Dragon next to it. The string of L's followed me. And got into range. Too bad they were in range of the tail and flanks of the Python as well. That was quick carnage.

Besides, the interface to control such fleets is rather minimal. Gerbils are not smart enough either.

But moving firepower to turrets or change of agility should not affect OOS. And in OOS the M6 are a bit lacking as well. Single Hydra can beat a Kha'ak Cluster or swarm of 4-6 Pirates without real sweat. But the speed of Hydra is barely enough. Yes, speed does count in OOS. Slow ship cannot intercept, and without interception there is no OOS combat. The other determining factor in OOS combat is the ratio of shields and firepower. And all shields are rather weak in X3. But firepower is not that of one ship, but the group. A Xenon patrol will most likely target one ship first. They all fire about the same time. And that first volley can beat 5*125MJ. If not totally, at least close enough to make the kill on successive shots.

IMO, Elephant was (and partly is) overly powerful for a TL. The introduction of LX added some balance. Balance is always about comparing all ships.

Whether one has a patrol of one or more ships, there is always one ship that gets targeted by the enemy first. That ship should have a strong shield, or be prone to die. But the enemy may target any ship, and are likely to target the first ship near them, ie the fastest one. That is why the fast M3 escorts do die and leave the patrol leader M6 alone. On the other hand, if the fastest ship has the best shield, the rest may not even reach the fight before it is over. Because if the ship has strong shields it usually has firepower too.

Again, the ship specs may not be the only way to rebalance. How OOS patrol stays in formation can affect the result as well. But is there any way to affect that (easily)?

IMO a balanced OOS ship would be reasonably fast and strongly shielded, but with low firepower. It would survive the initial volley, but would die in extended firefight because it could not kill opponents quickly enough. 1 GJ shield? So, for the patrol to survive, one should put more than one ship into the patrol. No fixed guns, and six dual turrets of PAC? Or something like X2 Hydra? Maybe the speed of M3 Vanguards? The problem is that I have no idea how that would handle in sector. And turreted ships would be a technically big change compared to just tweaking the rudder, etc.


I have collected all the Pandora rudder overtunings into one Dragon. It is still sluggish to turn, and I still have to be ready for emergency escapes. 15% of rudder or so. But I rather fly that than any of these new ships.

"NOT" using a ship with best possible OOS stats for OOS duty would be insane. Ask any Teladi. NOT using a particular ship as personal ship because it is less fun is somewhat acceptable. Personal ship can be the one that "gets the job done" (can be boring), or the one most fun (to fail in). But there is clear lack of balance if only couple ships are "fun". There are different flying styles, so all ships cannot possibly be fun, but many should.

[efernal]

Its more about personal taste. If he doesnt like then there is no need for him to use it. People like the origional poster will complain till the whole thing gets nerfed, thus ruining the fun of the many. If you ever played any mmo for any ammoumt of time youll know this is true.

[Varlis]

That is exactly why it is so important to counter his statement as soon as possible.

It's always about who screams loudest to get their interests through and that sucks.

[danleach]

I dont agree its too powerful, imHo the only really unbalanced things about it is its turn rate... its very nimble indeed.
It surely could only be too powerful if it was the most powerful ship in the game, but a titan would tear it to shreds, so i see no problem

[fud]

My bitch with it (and M6/big ships) is the cockpit viewpoint. I jumped into it after the towing mission, hated the view of the long nose, jumped back into another ship then sold it.


It's a pretty nit-picky problem, but it's personal taste. I've actually adjusted the cockpit position on a lot of ships, so it actually moot at this point.


I'm a fighter junkie anyway.

[jlehtone]

Fighters don't have 2 km of vulnerable Teladianium that should be kept out of harms way. I have to resort to external view with Ray and Oddy in order to do that. Python/Raptor/Ele is quite good. Phoenix, well slightly far-fetched. I did check the cockpit of Titan and still don't own one. Was it ordered from Buster-designer or what? But then again, the sight of MD in front turret of Chimera was too much for me. The looks of a ship are very personal. Actually, that might be interesting to find out. How much weight one puts on looks and how much on stats.

But hardly any ship can be called "strong" or "weak" just by the looks. Not unless the default view effectively blinds you and thus affects your ability to fly. Even then, "use the Force" works.

[fud]

Exactly. I just don't like having a mile of ship in front of me. It's personal preference. I don't fly the big ships, unless I'm moving them into a specific position for a portrait.


If you look at the Centaur, there's actually what appears to be a secondary bridge on the front end of the ship. This is where I moved the cameradummy for the cockpit view. Now there's significantly less nose in front of you, it makes flying it so much more enjoyable to me.

[Fresshness]

Exactly. I just don't like having a mile of ship in front of me. It's personal preference. I don't fly the big ships, unless I'm moving them into a specific position for a portrait.

I like to fly capital ships, but I do find myself flying in F2-mode (zoomed in and at a slight angle from above). I think this has a very cinematic feel to it.

On the other hand, I really like flying fighters too...
I have a dragon with 'anomalous' Afterburner MK1 (from the 3.1.04 bonus pack) which goes roughly 3000m/s (without using the said afterburner) and I love flying in that one. I don't have any guns attached to it. I solely use it as a super-fast 'scout' .