Egosoft without desire for growth?

Silverflyer · Post by **Silverflyer** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 17:58

So far I have purchased every X2 game on market. Designers and game developers did tremendous and remarkable job here.

What are Egosoft management plans when it comes to further growth? Why are they constantly pushing single player game and expansions is beyond me. Obviously MMOG are booming around the World. So many people want to live and interact with other human beings and enjoy their time in persistent virtual (space) world. Knowing that, it is very disappointing to read following:

“There are no plans for multiplayer in X3: Reunion. Longer term, Egosoft has a broad outline for a MMOG with a working title of X-Online Universe. This is not in serious development at present though and would be some way off.”

Does Egosoft management realize wrong approach here? The only competition would be EVE, but X2 designers and developers would blow EVE away. Successful space MMOG could be easily another WOW (Blizzard) when it comes to subscriber numbers.

Bottom line is that, no matter how tough it might sound, management should adopt to trends on market. I also know that my friends and I, most likely, will not buy single player games anymore.

Best regards,
Silverflyer

moggy2 · Post by **moggy2** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 18:32

apparently the profesionals in this market seem to disagree with you.

The main reason online universe hasn't been developed, as I understand it, is a lack of interest/investment from publishers, where as the single player games have.

JungleJim · Post by **JungleJim** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 18:39

Silverfly,

I imagine the reasons are many and varied. Some of the reasons might include:
o Requires new skill sets, Egosoft would likely have to hire a bunch of network savvy programmers to plan, design, & build the networking back end.
o Limited manpower, Egosoft likely has all of their current resources employed fulltime to met their other development deadlines. They don't have the deep pockets of other house (*cough* MS), to just throw developers into future projects like that.
o Infrastructure, supporting MMOG type games requires *LOTS* of infrastructure (network bandwidth, HD farms, server farms, system support, buildings, etc.). What sort of up front investment do you think might be required to kick off a MMOG type game?
o Fundamental game balance issues, there are an enormous number of game balancing and cheat monitoring issues that would have to be resolved for a MMOG (what do you do with offline players ships, how do you handle the destruction of AI resources by players, do you permit players to have more than 1 combat ship at a time?).

None of these are simple and some of these probably require skills that none of the current Egosoft employees possess. If you envision software design as a map, the design of a MMOG is just a giant blank area titled "Unknown Territory".

If anyone here has experience with this sort of development, they might want to start a dialog in the developers forum about their experience. It might help Eqosoft fill in some of the edges of the Unknown territory.

The_Hypo · Post by **The_Hypo** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 18:41

Why exactly would you want a mmo X game? you'd probably have a huge task just to get your first station since if someone who wants to get in good with someone would nick your targets and say they didnt know(or care for that matter) besides what do you want a game where you can do what you want 24/7 or a game with far too many restrictions that building an empire would be considered unfair to new players...

Be careful what you wish for it might come true in the wrong way. I for one wont touch a MMO since I belive that once you pay for a game its yours and you shouldnt have to pay extra fees just to play.

bye

AD · Post by AD » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 18:51

But you will pay an installation fee for broadband, then continue to pay a monthly fee? Its pretty much the same thing.

As much as I would love an X MMO, I'm in no rush. I would rather see the single player perfected before moving on to multiplayer.

PowerTrip · Post by **PowerTrip** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:01

The_Hypo wrote:Why exactly would you want a mmo X game? you'd probably have a huge task just to get your first station since if someone who wants to get in good with someone would nick your targets and say they didnt know(or care for that matter) besides what do you want a game where you can do what you want 24/7 or a game with far too many restrictions that building an empire would be considered unfair to new players...

Be careful what you wish for it might come true in the wrong way. I for one wont touch a MMO since I belive that once you pay for a game its yours and you shouldnt have to pay extra fees just to play.

bye

DITTO

The_Hypo · Post by **The_Hypo** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:03

AD wrote:But you will pay an installation fee for broadband, then continue to pay a monthly fee? Its pretty much the same thing.

free installation besides i use it about 90% of the time i'm on the pc and theres no way i would play the game a few hours a week i mean 12 odd pounds for something i use relatively little, also the broadband has more uses than a game eg a game can only be used as entertainment where as broadband can be used for work, recreation, relaying required information and 101 other uses which i wont list.

Bottom line is if its multifunctional and used a hell of alot its worth paying for unlike a game which would be taking cash from your pocket better spent elsewhere(broadband for example.)

bye

Edit: lots of typos in there

Post by **Nanook** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:18

Silverflyer wrote: What are Egosoft management plans when it comes to further growth? Why are they constantly pushing single player game and expansions is beyond me. Obviously MMOG are booming around the World. So many people want to live and interact with other human beings and enjoy their time in persistent virtual (space) world. Knowing that, it is very disappointing to read following:

I don't know what fantasy world you live in, but it sure isn't the real one. MMO's are just a small fraction of the total game market, and probably will never be a lot bigger until some very fundamental issues are resolved. Basically, MMO's requires a player to participate in group activities to succeed. And participation requires long-term commitment to the group. If a player doesn't make that commitment, he/she won't succeed. And most gamers don't have the time and/or money to make that commitment. They have other, real-life commitments. To most people, gaming is a relaxation, a release from everyday tensions. They don't want to play a game that ends up mirroring real life. But that's what MMO's, by and large, do. Very few people have the ability, or even desire, to make that kind of commitment to a game. With a single player game, the gamer can quit at any time and come back to exactly the same spot whenever they want.

I played EVE Online for nearly four months right after it first came out. I thought, what a great game! But then the 'committed' players started to take over. Corporations were formed. But these corporations required a level of commitment that I wasn't able or willing to give. So I fell behind and at the mercy of those with way too much time on their hands. I tried forming a corporation of more casual gamers, but that sure didn't get very far. First, we were hopelessly outclassed by those corporations who had battleships before we were even able to acquire cruisers. Then we had a couple of members who were double agents, using an alter ego to infiltrate and steal our ships and resources. Finally, the regular members just gave up and left in frustration. And so did I. We just couldn't keep up with those who could devote 16 hours a day, seven days a week, to a game (this was during the summer, so maybe it got a little better once the kiddies had to go back to school, but I didn't stick around long enough to find out).

So, until MMO's can solve the commitment problem, they will stay a niche market, IMO. They simply aren't for the casual or independent gamer, which describes most players. And the day Egosoft stops making single-player games is the day I stop buying their products.

AD · Post by AD » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:32

Unless they solve the commitment problems?

I agree there, I dont have huge amounts of time to play either, so I would hope that there would be a place for time impaired people

Harpo · Post by **Harpo** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:39

have to say i agree with nanook,i too was an eve player but quit frankly stoped playing because ppl started to take it far too seriously, come on just think about it youve just spent 3 months 4 hous a night grinding your way up from a disco to getting your first ssp and some child in a capped k comes and ruins your hard work. not for me thanks my unierves my rules~!!!

Norse Player · Post by **Norse Player** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:49

I agree with you about the MMORPG Nanook. But there could be developed a LAN-version with a central server for a small group of people. Say 6-8 persons all in all. And I think the single-player games are going to stay around for a very long time.

Norse Player

Silverflyer · Post by **Silverflyer** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:53

“apparently the profesionals in this market seem to disagree with you.”

Moggy2 there are many different types of professionals, some of them are less successful, and some are more successful. Now lets look at successful professionals with vision. I have to assume that Blizzard is good example, brilliant game designers and developers. Almost every single player game that they have made was relatively big success. However management decided to launch MMOG. Look at epic success they have achieved almost 6 months after release: 1 500 000 million customers that paid box and paying $15 (or Euros) EACH month! Blizzard has stopped selling game so that is not all we have seen on European and North American Market PLUS the fact that launch in Japan, Taiwan, China,… follows. What does market think about it? Check Viviendi shares before and after WOW success – just look 1 year chart.

JungleJim,
You are correct that there is additional cost with MMOG, but please look at revenue. If Blizzard maintains 1.5M subsribers (and number will increase), their revenue will be 345 million dollars annually (270M from subscription). It is more than that because European subscribers pay 15E, and North Americans pay 15$. Blizzard was also single player game company before with small multiplayer experience. Egosoft and Blizzard have excellent game developers / designers.

The_Hypo,
How can that be waste of money? You get one full month of fun for something you enjoy. Now is that better or spend $15 for 1 pizza, or 3 beers in less than 2 hours?

flagg209 · Post by **flagg209** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 19:54

I agree, paying for a game after you buy it is crap - I mean if you like it - hey, thats great - but I don't.

That being said - the exact reason Nanook posted about getting killed by the overly established players is the opposite of what is at the core of the Xgames...which is that you can have an empire.

Now looking at simple multiplayer (4 players across a wan link) in an enclosed universe with maybe synchronized save games I think would be awesome. Or at least maybe having the option to have friends of yours pilot some of your ships for you - that would be spectacular

mark_t50 · Post by **mark_t50** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:07

I disagree, if anything I believe that the statement that X3 is to go 'Multi Format' shows a desire on Egosofts part to want to expand the X universe into new areas. I personally have my doubts about the plan to expand into the console market as I have posted in another thread, but if Egosoft can pull it off then good for them.

I can understand why you would like to see an online game set in the X universe, I would like to see this too, but I certainly don't think the single player game is dead. I like to play online but I also like playing single player games still.

I think that for a decent MMOG to be made would require 3 to 5 years of intensive development, so if X3 were to be that game we wouldn't see it till at least 2007. For me a LAN version wouldn't work given the way the game currently works, it is too dynamic for a start, you could log off for the night having built up a mighty empire only to log in the next day and find it all destroyed! or that the economy has suddenly changed and you've made a huge loss, also I would suspect that the amount of information that would need to be transmitted to each player would be huge, or would require huge dedicated servers that would make it expensive to run. Just my opinion of couse and I know nothing about game development

I'm happy X3 is single player, it allows me to be the star of the show and feel that my actions directly impact the game world in a manner that is not always possible in a MMOG.

As long as X3 has an improved graphics engine, more ship/weapon/game content, enhanced economy, improved ship handling, better mission content and most importantly that the game isn't diluted to fit the console market then I'll be very happy.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:08

JungleJim,
You are correct that there is additional cost with MMOG, but please look at revenue. If Blizzard maintains 1.5M (and it will increase), their revenue will be 345 million dollars annually (270M from subscription). It is more than that because European subscribers pay 15E, and North Americans pay 15$. Blizzard was also single player game company before with small multiplayer experience. Egosoft and Blizzard have excellent game developers / designers.

Don't you think that Egosoft might be a bit smaller then Bliazzard? And not every single Egosoft game was a hit. And so far they only released three X-Games. One of the supporting factors for X3 is to HELP further the production of X:OU! All of these X-Games are helpping to fund X:OU BECAUSE they do not have the assests to MAKE X:OU yet. If they had the all of the assests they needed, don' you think they would have it in full production?

Silverflyer · Post by **Silverflyer** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:10

“ Basically, MMO's requires a player to participate in group activities to succeed. And participation requires long-term commitment to the group. If a player doesn't make that commitment, he/she won't succeed.”

Nanook, the situation that you have described above was launched and later pushed with EQ and for some reason it was successful, but then everything has changed with WOW. If you compare EQ2 and WOW subscriber numbers, you will realize that NEW concept is clearly winning. WOW is example how MMOG can be designed for both CASUAL player and for “powergamer”. I am not going to explain here how grouping and soloing concepts are both rewarding in WOW.

“And most gamers don't have the time and/or money to make that commitment. “

I am not going to argue with you about this statement. At least you could take a look in overall number of MMOG subscribers over past 5 years. What do you think why so many companies are trying to launch MMOG?

”I played EVE Online for nearly four months right after it first came out. I thought, what a great game! But then the 'committed' players started to take over. Corporations were formed. But these corporations required a level of commitment that I wasn't able or willing to give. So I fell behind and at the mercy of those with way too much time on their hands.”

And I 100% agree with you here. That is where CCP failed and EGOSOFT will follow Blizzard’s template. That is crucial for big success.

“So, until MMO's can solve the commitment problem, they will stay a niche market, IMO. They simply aren't for the casual or independent gamer, which describes most players.”

That is just another wrong assumption. Blizzard has showed to every one that games can be created for casual gamers and for so called “soloers”, for “powergamers” and for those who enjoy grouping.

/cheers
Silverflyer

Drainy · Post by **Drainy** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:11

fact is, x games sell. Regardless of the fact that it has no multiplayer options.

I want a single player game, im sure alot of people do. Its harmless fun. and thats the important thing, FUN.

Alot of online games are made by who plays them, not just the content.
X is fun and im happy as is.
I would try a multiplayer game if they made one, but I still want my single player fix

mintydog · Post by **mintydog** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:16

if you dont wanna buy singleplayer games anymore thats really your fault. There will ALWAYS be room for single player games, cos there is stuff you can do in singleplayer games that jsut arent possible online. So far the X universe isnt possible online unless seriously Re-designed. Yes it would be great online but so far im happy with it singleplayer. I can play it for months on end.

Post by **Nanook** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:31

Silverflyer wrote:“ Basically, MMO's requires a player to participate in group activities to succeed. And participation requires long-term commitment to the group. If a player doesn't make that commitment, he/she won't succeed.”

Nanook, the situation that you have described above was launched and later pushed with EQ and for some reason it was successful, but then everything has changed with WOW. If you compare EQ2 and WOW subscriber numbers, you will realize that NEW concept is clearly winning. WOW is example how MMOG can be designed for both CASUAL player and for “powergamer”. I am not going to explain here how grouping and soloing concepts are both rewarding in WOW.

“And most gamers don't have the time and/or money to make that commitment. “

I am not going to argue with you about this statement. At least you could take a look in overall number of MMOG subscribers over past 5 years. What do you think why so many companies are trying to launch MMOG?

”I played EVE Online for nearly four months right after it first came out. I thought, what a great game! But then the 'committed' players started to take over. Corporations were formed. But these corporations required a level of commitment that I wasn't able or willing to give. So I fell behind and at the mercy of those with way too much time on their hands.”

And I 100% agree with you here. That is where CCP failed and EGOSOFT will follow Blizzard’s template. That is crucial for big success.

“So, until MMO's can solve the commitment problem, they will stay a niche market, IMO. They simply aren't for the casual or independent gamer, which describes most players.”

That is just another wrong assumption. Blizzard has showed to every one that games can be created for casual gamers and for so called “soloers”, for “powergamers” and for those who enjoy grouping.

/cheers
Silverflyer

What you're failing to realize is that the X-Universe is like the EVE universe, with the player trying to build a huge financial empire. That is not the paradigm for WoW, as far as I understand it. And I don't think the WoW model would work for XOU, if XOU were to stay true to the single player style of play. Apples and Oranges. And despite your purported numbers, which I cannot argue with because I don't know if they're real or not, that would still constitute only a small percentage of the total number of gamers in those areas.

That said, I paid ~$40 for X2. I've played it since December 2003. I've only taken a few short breaks to play other games, so most of my gaming during that period was X2. How much would it have cost me to play an online game during that time? And how much aggravation did I have to put up with dealing with some plmply-faced kid with no real-life commitments who lived just to make everyone elses gaming experience miserable? How much modding of my game world could I have done in an online world? Single player gaming still rules!

JungleJim · Post by **JungleJim** » Wed, 13. Apr 05, 20:36

Silverflyer wrote:...
How can that be waste of money? You get one full month of fun for something you enjoy. Now is that better or spend $15 for 1 pizza, or 3 beers in less than 2 hours?

But I don't buy my Pizza's I make them. I don't buy beer, I make my own mead (4-6x the alcohol content

).

All in all it's much cheaper, better tasting, and a LOT less expensive.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Egosoft without desire for growth?

Egosoft without desire for growth?

Re: Egosoft without desire for growth?