No guide to Fleets? -- Why??

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Tue, 8. Jul 14, 18:23

a guide for Ships names/stats/origin - check
a guide for missile and weapons stats - check
a guide for trading - check
a guide for general fighting - check
a guide for boarding and stealing of ships - check
a guide for setting up UT/ST and CLS/CAG - check
a guide for mobile mining - check
a guide for stations and complexes - check
Plot Walkthroughs - check
there are even guides for modding and scripting!!
and basically almost every little thing in X

but there is no guide that talks about setting up a combat fleet and fighting with them in large/spectacular fleet battles.

WHY??

if there is one can someone please point me to it

Cpt.Jericho · Post by **Cpt.Jericho** » Tue, 8. Jul 14, 19:25

The only thing coming near to a guide for fleets might be the threads of the X-Universe Fleet Fest. If you follow my signature you get the Italian thread which should guide you to the canceled English topic from years ago.

ancienthighway · Post by **ancienthighway** » Tue, 8. Jul 14, 19:31

I would guess that no guide exists because there are so many variables to consider. Reputation, credits, ship preferences, and weapon availability just touch the surface of it. The cost to replace losses would be enormous.

Then there's technical issues, especially around FPS when you have a large number of combatants and you are IS.

On the game mechanics side, opportunity for large scale capital class combat are limited, and as NPC losses are magically built again, an overall losing battle on the side of the player. In TC I've seen at most two capital ships, a couple escorting M7s, a couple M6s, and fighters traveling through other races and pirate sectors. Racial core sectors are a different matter where I've frequently had to make sudden direction changes after passing a gate because of all the big ships idling around the gates.

I'm not saying that developing a wouldn't be worth looking into. Starting with the search function on this forum, you could find all the relevant posts on fleets and start to come up with ideas to explore and test. Maybe even write your own guild to share.

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Tue, 8. Jul 14, 20:36

The only thing coming near to a guide for fleets might be the threads of the X-Universe Fleet Fest. If you follow my signature you get the Italian thread which should guide you to the canceled English topic from years ago.

Dem videos.. shows exactly the reason why I like large scale battles..

I would guess that no guide exists because there are so many variables to consider. Reputation, credits, ship preferences, and weapon availability just touch the surface of it. The cost to replace losses would be enormous.

Fleets are late game achievements.. so by the time the player can create and maintain them the player is already earning millions/hr and can produce weapons/ shields/ missiles/ ammo faster than the whole universe combined.. so i think this is a minor issue

Then there's technical issues, especially around FPS when you have a large number of combatants and you are IS.

I have to agree with this, FPS drops to really low levels when I enter massive battles in war sectors especially since the all races participating in the war are my enemies.. (my machine isnt high end but it can handle everyday life in X universe just fine)

On the game mechanics side, opportunity for large scale capital class combat are limited, and as NPC losses are magically built again, an overall losing battle on the side of the player.

Replacing ships isnt really a problem for a rich player..

the problem lies with equipping them with necessary weapons and software to make them combat ready. renaming ships also can be alot of work.. though, this too is not a problem for a patient player (like me

)

In TC I've seen at most two capital ships, a couple escorting M7s, a couple M6s, and fighters traveling through other races and pirate sectors. Racial core sectors are a different matter where I've frequently had to make sudden direction changes after passing a gate because of all the big ships idling around the gates.

Those patrol ships rarely do anything in TC.. they just fly around until some 1d01t Xenon/pirate decides to take their chances and attack them.. other than that they just peacefully roam the universe.. they do, however, give a good fight for a player with a thirst for battles (like me)

I have to agree with gate traffics.. one thing I hate most is that capital ships jump one by one!! I would accept it if it was just M7, M1 and M2 that does this because of their size but even the bloody M6/M8/TM does this!! Unacceptable!! There are mods that can work around this issue but I really wish Ego would make an effort to change the M6 and co. jumping behaviors in a vanilla game...

The reason I'm looking for a fleet guide is because I have been in war with the Argon, Terran, Paranid, Boron for quite some time now. I have been successful in wiping them out with my M1 fleet. But the moment I mix in some M2s and M7s I suffered really heavy losses mostly the M2s!! Just three hours ago I lost 3 titans and 5 Griffons in a three-way battle with the Argon and Terrans in Heretics End.. I could have minimized my losses if I were a better fleet commander (now Im looking for a guide to become one)

Cpt.Jericho · Post by **Cpt.Jericho** » Wed, 9. Jul 14, 02:21

Black_hole_suN wrote:
The only thing coming near to a guide for fleets might be the threads of the X-Universe Fleet Fest. If you follow my signature you get the Italian thread which should guide you to the canceled English topic from years ago.
Dem videos.. shows exactly the reason why I like large scale battles.

Just a reminder: Those battles took part in a modded universe consisting of only one sector with no NPCs dragging the CPU down...
But on the other hand, all matches were recorded with Fraps - which does not use a very efficient codec.

zazie · Post by **zazie** » Wed, 9. Jul 14, 12:29

Black_hole_suN wrote:The reason I'm looking for a fleet guide is because I have been in war with the Argon, Terran, Paranid, Boron for quite some time now. I have been successful in wiping them out with my M1 fleet. But the moment I mix in some M2s and M7s I suffered really heavy losses mostly the M2s!!

This sounds as a perfect starting point for writing your "Guide to large scale battles - Do's and Dont's". I am sure that many players will be happy to contribute their experience. But - in my case - my experience is not deep enough to write a guide.

May I suggest that you start a thread about "Large scale battles" and compose the different experiences into such a Guide ?

samoja · Post by **samoja** » Wed, 9. Jul 14, 13:28

Because its pointless, other orgs can spawn fully equipped ships from thin air and ship captains are bloody idiots that cant even win 1on1 with the ship of the same size.

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Wed, 9. Jul 14, 13:51

This sounds as a perfect starting point for writing your "Guide to large scale battles - Do's and Dont's". I am sure that many players will be happy to contribute their experience. But - in my case - my experience is not deep enough to write a guide.

I guess starting my own guide is the way to go then.. I already got the outline in my head.. Though the problem with this is that, some of my methods in controlling fleets cant be applied in a vanilla game..

Because its pointless, other orgs can spawn fully equipped ships from thin air and ship captains are bloody idiots that cant even win 1on1 with the ship of the same size.

I already answered this in my previous post, patience in equipping / renaming ships is the key..

and contrary to the popular belief, Jobs engine does not recreate ships instantly at the exact moment they are destroyed. there is some timer until they are respawned again giving the player enough time to resupply and replace fallen fleet members..

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Thu, 10. Jul 14, 15:27

So I decided to create my own guide for this topic.. It should be done next week If I find more free time or in two weeks if I did not..

for now, Im on the process of rediscovering the "vanilla way" of controlling fleets in battle.

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Sun, 13. Jul 14, 12:34

Hi!! Im almost 70% done with my guide now.. Things are really looking good and I enjoy writing it more than I expected.

there are just things that I want to confirm from you guys since my game is modded and my guide is for a vanilla game.. and I dont really want to do a clean reinstall to have a pure, unadulterated vanilla game

- can you jump multiple ships at once in a jump beacon?

Scenario - have many capital ships follow a group leader. Then jump the group leader to a jump beacon. does the followers jump all at once or they just jump one by one.

- Can "Retreat" command make my ships ignore enemies?

Scenario - Have one ship attack a small group of fighters then order it to retreat to the players position.. Does it still insist to fight or does it run away at full speed towards the designated position even though it is under attack??

Edit:

Ships jump together on jump beacons

Ships ignore attacks and continue to the designated position when ordered to "Retreat"

Im starting to get discouraged... no one seems to be interested in the guide Im making..

(or maybe no one just play vanilla anymore so no one can answer my questions)

Patholos · Post by **Patholos** » Mon, 14. Jul 14, 22:47

Black_hole_suN wrote:Hi!! Im almost 70% done with my guide now.. Things are really looking good and I enjoy writing it more than I expected.

there are just things that I want to confirm from you guys since my game is modded and my guide is for a vanilla game.. and I dont really want to do a clean reinstall to have a pure, unadulterated vanilla game

- can you jump multiple ships at once in a jump beacon?

Scenario - have many capital ships follow a group leader. Then jump the group leader to a jump beacon. does the followers jump all at once or they just jump one by one.

- Can "Retreat" command make my ships ignore enemies?

Scenario - Have one ship attack a small group of fighters then order it to retreat to the players position.. Does it still insist to fight or does it run away at full speed towards the designated position even though it is under attack??

Edit:

Ships jump together on jump beacons

Ships ignore attacks and continue to the designated position when ordered to "Retreat"

Im starting to get discouraged... no one seems to be interested in the guide Im making.. (or maybe no one just play vanilla anymore so no one can answer my questions)

I play vanilla, and I would very much like if you finished the guide.

That none is posting, doesnt mean there's none interested. Make the guide and the readers will come. You got one sitting here patiently waiting for the masterpiece

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 07:16

Thanks!!!

Im actually 90% finished now... maybe in two days I could post it here...

DiArmada · Post by **DiArmada** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 10:58

in TC I had a Boreas (M2) which was followed by four M7's.
one M7 was followed by a wing of eight M6's.
when ordering the M2 to jump somewhere the rest would jump with the M2.
you can set this in the command console.

most of the time I would fly the M2 myself.
front and side turrets were filled with capital guns set to attack capital ships.
the rest of the turrets were filled with FLAK and set to missile defense.
the M7's were not in a wing but would just follow.
their front turrets, capable of fitting capital guns, were set to attack capitals.
turrets on other sides were set to missile defense and fired FLAK.
the wing of M6's were just for extra, fast firepower.
one of the M7's had a wing of ten Falcon Haulers (M3) fitted with PRG.
there was also a wing of ten Eclipses docked fitted with HEPT's.

the Hull strengths have been improved in AP, which makes this fleet not that effective as in TC.
in AP I just use M2's, M7M's and M8's.

zazie · Post by **zazie** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 12:41

(Talking about TC, don't know if it's the same in AP):

Do you agree ? can you check ?

A) Problem of massive fleet invasions: the big ships are not getting away from the gates fast enough - therefore the wing-ships have looong delays before taking part of the battle.

=> imo the "wing-commands" are useless for anything bigger than M3+ .

B) Normally, the enemy attacks big ships mostly on rear end, hanging at the end and the flanks of your big ships - where in most cases the defence is weak. I think that it is helpful to set an M7 or two (with FLAKS installed) on "follow me" and its turrets to "attack enemies".

=> imo the better option than "protect me/...." or "attack nearest enemy of ..."

What's your experience ?

DiArmada · Post by **DiArmada** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 15:46

A) if you're piloting the big ship yourself, then you could use the strafe drive to clear the gate faster.

B) in TC I was quite fond of the Griffon (M7) because it's pretty small and can fit a lot of FLAK.

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 16:00

imo the "wing-commands" are useless for anything bigger than M3+

Correct. anything bigger is just too big that they trigger collision avoidance on each other. M6 and up also just doesnt maneuver fast enough.

small M6 groups, when assigned as personal wingman, is a better quick response team that can counter respawning Qs in xenon sectors than a fighter group put under the same task

Problem of massive fleet invasions: the big ships are not getting away from the gates fast enough - therefore the wing-ships have looong delays before taking part of the battle.

in TC yes.. but in AP we have a jump beacon to work around this problem

Normally, the enemy attacks big ships mostly on rear end, hanging at the end and the flanks of your big ships - where in most cases the defence is weak.

if you install X3 model Viewer you can view camera position of ships. AI and turrets will target these cameras but if the center of the ship is within guns range they will target the center instead of the camera

Guide progress report:

The last part of the guide "real combat scenario" is the only thing left undone.. will work on that tomorrow cuz Im busy

phoenix-it · Post by **phoenix-it** » Tue, 15. Jul 14, 20:14

Fleet commands aren't all that great. The real problem is it's sort of one of those community requested features, but the X3 engine was never designed for that sort of thing.

X3 is a space trading and combat game that approaches a cross genre with RTS space sims. If you look at a game like Sins of a Solar Empire and Homeworld, you see much better feet controls. Additionally, the AI was built from the ground up to handle group formation & flying, collective target engagement (by that I mean: attacking as a group without weird behavior or colliding with each other or the target), and really, really good collision avoidance. But, again those game's engines were built from that.

The X3 engine has a few big problems I can see, or personally think get in the way of that: Collision detection appears to be lazy, that is to say it doesn't look ahead very far. The AI appears to be almost entirely script driven. The UI is totally unsuited for an RTS kind of gameplay. None of these things are Egosoft's fault. There are good reasons to make any one of those choices, I just don't see them working well with the RTS elements. And, while I think a lot of things about X3 could have been better, when it comes to the whole fleet management mechanics, I think they did the best they could for an engine designed largely for a single player flying one craft at a time.

Personally there a lot of aspects of X3's AI I find pretty frustrating. But the "fleet controls" are, I think, a best they could have done retrofit on an engine design focused on completely different gameplay.

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Thu, 17. Jul 14, 15:49

The X3 engine has a few big problems I can see, or personally think get in the way of that: Collision detection appears to be lazy, that is to say it doesn't look ahead very far. The AI appears to be almost entirely script driven. The UI is totally unsuited for an RTS kind of gameplay. None of these things are Egosoft's fault. There are good reasons to make any one of those choices, I just don't see them working well with the RTS elements. And, while I think a lot of things about X3 could have been better, when it comes to the whole fleet management mechanics, I think they did the best they could for an engine designed largely for a single player flying one craft at a time.

RTS elements are indeed not the strong point in X but large fleet operations are still doable -- albeit in a slow and clumsy manner..

Collision detection is indeed lazy. But its severity depends on your machine... or at least that what I have observed after upgrading my machine to a not-so high-end but still better one.. I can still see my ships colliding on the next object they encounter but not as much as in my previous machine.

Personally there a lot of aspects of X3's AI I find pretty frustrating.

The only thing that bothers me most about the AI in this game is that it will try to protect itself more than carrying out orders from its commander (the player)

for example: I ordered my M7 to "Move to Position", it obeyed and starts flying. then a single M5 came into picture and starts attacking my M7. The most logical action would be to carry out the orders and just let the turrets kill the M5.. BUT NO.. my M7 will turn around and starts chasing the M5. If I viewed my ships info I will see "CMD = Move to position, Action = Killing M5", thats just plain stupid!! after killing the M5 I viewed its info again and it says "CMD = Move to position, Action = Flying to position".

There is only one command that cannot be interrupted by an enemy attack --- "Retreat". but I discovered that even this command is clumsy too...

Anyway.. there's nothing we can do about it since we are not the designers of the game.. What we can do is just to find ways to work around the games design.... hence a guide for fleets combat

the guide is all done now.. what Im doing now is just uploading some pictures and adding some of its links to the guide... maybe tomorrow I can post it here in the forums.. if no tree will fall at my neighborhood that will knock down the electricity lines again

Edit:

Uggghhhh... I have connection problems and cant upload anything... dammit... guide will be delayed until problem is fixed... sorry guys

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Thu, 24. Jul 14, 07:44

Just a couple of quick notes on "Fleets"

There are plenty of guides in these forums about Fleets. But, they'll be in thread format and you'll have to search for them. I recommend using a Google site-search, since the forum's search engine is practically impotent.

example - site:http://forum.egosoft.com fleets

(Copy/Past that into a Google search bar)

There are three main decisions you must make before you consider constructing a Fleet(s).

1) Carriers and accompanying fighters or no?
2) In-Sector or Out-of-Sector combat? (Will vary greatly between TC and AP)
3) Do I have the money to supply my fleet fighting with the chosen configuration, do I have the time to manage this fleet, do I know how to use all the software packages at my disposal in order to automate as many processes as possible, do I want to use mods, do I want to just load up everything with ginormous missiles and blow the crap out of the whole sector or do I want a slug-fest?

Well, a few more than three, but you get the picture.

There is no reason you can't have fleet-to-fleet combat in X3TC (I don't have AP). There is no reason you can't even have it in-sector, provided your machine can handle it. There's no reason you can't have multiple carriers, fully stocked with fighters carrying bazillions of missiles. There's also no reason to not expect to lose several ships and quite a few fighters to collision damage and friendly fire, unless you plan your engagement extremely well...

Honestly, for Fleet engagements, the CODEA mod used to be the most popular. http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=259730 You'll have to jump through a few hoops, but you can find guides for it. It's very feature rich.

Lastly - Honestly, the biggest question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you're willing to deal with Carriers and their fighters or not. After that, it's how you organize your fleet command structure. Using simple vanilla scripts and nested combat commands, you can greatly simplify the complexities of ordering lots of ships around in a combat situation. BUT, you must be willing to set up a nested command structure, for precision, or be willing to sacrifice that precision by assigning wings and the like. (I prefer a nested structure, with key ships being the ones I give orders to and their escorts following them and firing on their targets, defending, attacking nearest, etc... And, in such an arrangement, don't worry if your fighter group loses its leader - The next in line will assume the role.)

Black_hole_suN · Post by **Black_hole_suN** » Thu, 24. Jul 14, 08:05

Hey in case you missed, I wrote my own guide to fleets!!

HERE

I made it because there is no threads that really talk about how command your ships in a big and spectacular fleet combat..

I hope you enjoy reading it!!