XR Feedback after 84h playtime

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CoolcatJumpman
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Joined: Wed, 20. Nov 13, 18:08

XR Feedback after 84h playtime

Post by CoolcatJumpman »

Hi everyone :)
According to Steam I played the game now for about 84h, time to get my feedback notes I made while playing here into the forum. This includes general feedback, some bugs and ideas for improvement. The goal is to make an awesome game out of this current "Pre-Alpha" which is great and sucks at the same time, you know what I mean. Throwing stones makes no sense, but constructive feedback should help.

Please try to keep this thread clean, so the developers have an actual chance to keep up with the discussion. If you want to comment an issue please use it's reference ID. If you want to add unrelated feedback to this list, introduce a new ID somehow derived from you name. E.g. I use "CC" for "Coolcat" with yellow color.


Current XR version: 1.21

CC01: I'm a programmer working on AAA games myself (at BlueByte in Düsseldorf, just ~80km away :) ). To get the game in a polished state we do a "Let's Play" session every now and then. Every 1-2 months or so we take stable a milestone build and let everyone in the team play it for a few hours. Yes, really everyone! By doing that you make sure that everyone knows the whole game and not just his/her small corner he is working on. Also people have time to see their own stuff in the actual game, not just some test/debug scenes. By that you find a lots of minor issues that can sometimes fixed in minutes. Also you can identify/avoid major problems before they actually are an issue. Let someone got through the team feedback, filter and prioritize it and assign tasks. I suggest Egosoft should start do something similar once all critical stuff is fixed, but before implementing new major features.
Of course only if that's not already happening. I don't know the internal procedures of course, but from the outside it certainly looks like this is not happening. E.g. CC03, CC05, CC12/13 and CC29/30 would have been quickly identified and fixed when the "right" people would have time to actually play the game. ;)

CC02: I'm playing the game with a gamepad. It think the game would benefit a lot from a more flat menu structure. Currently only 6 directions are used and one of them is "back", so you have actually only 5 options. Why not use 8 directions like the drone menu ("X" button) does? The most often used options "property owned" and "navigation" should be directly available in the first level. There should be no extra "back" option, "B" button is enough. Before doing this please let several people actually try how often you select the wrong option by accident when using 8 directions.

CC03: Ships should have names! I have something like 10 Rahanas freighter, it is near impossible to tell them apart. Especially since the sorting in "property owned" changes at random. If you don't want to add the UI the enter custom names, please at least add some random name generator or just display the name of the captain.
At the ship dealer you currently need to use the number of drones aboard to tell ships apart, that's just crazy.

CC04: "property owned" list should display the location and potentially also the cargo of each ship.

CC05: When going back to an item, e.g. from ship details back to "property owned", the item you came from should be selected, not the first one.

CC06: Trading menu should show current cargo (and name, see CC03) of the ship. Cargo already sold should be grayed out or something.

CC07: Allow to cancel trade orders individually. It might be to complicated and confusing when having to delete dependencies of an order (e.g. buying an directly selling stuff), but it should be easy to implement a delete button for the last order.

CC08: Increase trade queue length to 4: E.g. 2x buy and 2x sell should be a common thing.

CC09: Auto merge trades at the same station. The ships should only need to dock once and such a merged trade should count as one in the queue. That should speed up the game a lot in cases in which you have gather a lot of small amounts of different stuff, e.g. when building a station.

CC10: Similar it might be useful to merge maintenance orders at a ship dealer. E.g. repair and equip drones & ammo.

CC11: Give specific orders to engineer. E.g. repair engines first.

CC12: Additional orders for captain:
  1. "GoTo" works just like "Take me to", but they can to that without you!
  2. "Follow Me" to replace the squad feature, see CC13
CC13:I find the whole concept of a squad kind of strange. Why can't I give orders to a ship not in my squad? Squads might be more useful if ships do not follow me. Otherwise you just have to add/remove ships from you squad all the time just to give them orders without letting them follow you. Currently they even then jump to you if you are too slow.
Maybe squads could be used just as a marker feature for ships currently of interest: A list of the squad members with some essential infos (name, location, orders, cargo) could be always visible on an additional cockpit screen.

CC14: Maybe allow to queue captains orders together with trade orders. Usecase: Buy some stuff, then go back to safety until I have time to give you additional orders. Same goes for the "Refuel"/"Follow me" order.

CC15: Additional orders for defense officer:
  1. Attack only enemies actually attacking. Never fire if there might be a chance of hitting another target. (Sometimes freighters get in fight with stations they are currently trying to dock with, just because there is an enemy passing nearby firing, causing my ship to fire on normal traffic that can't even fire back...then hitting the station by accident and everyone starts shooting)
  2. The "hold your damn fire!" order might be useful as well in these cases ;)
CC16: An auto pilot for the "Shunk" would be great. ("Hey Yisha, take me to...") This would be of course slower than flying myself, e.g. less efficient booster use, no use of the traffic in highways. BUT, I could use the time to issue trade orders to my ships, etc.

CC17: In general it would be helping if using the menu would not cancel travel in a highway.

CC18: Freighters should not wait somewhere on the jump drive while under serious fire. They should power up their boost engines and make a run. I already lost several ships at the Wrecksville beacon. They should not jump to known enemy beacons if the engines are damaged.

CC19: Targeting is sometimes buggy when being near a ship some time and targeting individual spots (e.g. engines or weapons). After that it is not possible to target the whole ship anymore an hail it for example. (Workaround: Save the game and reload)

CC20: Cutscenes can't be canceled, only the video can, audio and subtitles keep running?!

CC21: Shipyard/Shipdealer should show/highlight resources not in storage before/while building! Since the economy in DeVries is not self sustaining you need to know which resources you need to ship manually from Albion! I even had the case where some NPC started to build a ship that could not be finished and was blocking the shipyard. Had to dig into the savegame XML to find which resources where missing.

CC22: It should be possible to dump cargo from freighters. E.g. when you capture a freighter just because a single resource (e.g. reinforced metal plating for the campaign) and have no way to sell the other stuff on board.

CC23: Speed in the highway should depend on my engine type. With an MK4 engine I would assume that I would be faster than most of the traffic? Anyway, why is traffic in DeVries MUCH faster than in Albion?

CC24: My engineers can remote repair my ship? Just hail them. Bug or feature?

CC25:The UI is sometimes stuck. I think this happens when the "property owned" list is updated while it is open and you open the details page of a ship after that update. (Workaround: Alt+Tab to the desktop and back in the game, that closes the menu.)

CC26: URW Wrath build for the campaign has a strange production chain? It takes Plasma-somethings and converts them into URVs. Ok, but what do I need the steel refinery and the wafer plant for?
I was assuming the reason for the station was that we can build URV's in DeVries just from resources available there, so we don't have to ship everything from Albion?

CC27: Big campaign battle for the Albion/DeVries jumpgate makes no sense:
  1. Taradis capital ship does not even fire back.
  2. I got an objective to destroy some fighters 20km outside of the battle zone. Some of them where invisible or switching between visible and invisble every few seconds. I think it was at the border between two zones. (Or is this actually a stealth mode or something?)
  3. Campaign let's me fall back with still 3 capital ships left against just one warden carrier and the damaged&weaponless Taradis.
CC28: Helpful: Always show my current location on a small additional screen in the cockpit.

CC29: Fast iterate list items in a menu when holding down the button for some time. Currently you have to press the "down" button some 20-30 times to get the the last ware in the trade menu. E.g. move down something like 10-15 items per second?

CC30: Directly select the same ware when switching between buy/sell in the trade menu. Before buying something you always want to know first how much you will get when selling it.
birdtable
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Post by birdtable »

@ CoolcatJumpman ..... Next anno ...?
EnemyWithin
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Post by EnemyWithin »

CoolcatJumpman, I cannot stress the level of agreement I feel for your suggestions enough. I am just afraid that this is a very long road to go for Egosoft. Fixing the crucial bugs alone will take some more time. Implementing all those features might take them years, seeing the current state of the game.
But if anyone at Egosoft will find the precious time to read through this, I really hope they appreciate the feedback.
birdtable
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Post by birdtable »

@ EnemyWithin ... Got to agree with you about CoolcatJumpman suggestions, hope Ego read.
KopiG
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Post by KopiG »

Wow amazing list. What I have first imagined X:R would be. Unfortunately it turned out to be something.... different..... (tons of bugs) :(
monsto
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Re: XR Feedback after 84h playtime

Post by monsto »

CoolcatJumpman wrote:Hi everyone :)
Hi.

I love your list.

It's the kind of thing that a person that knows what they're talking about can come up with in the matter of an afternoon. And to be honest, your list should seriously have been a 1 week action list for a UI programmer 6 months ago.

On the flip side, here's a word of advice: based on what I've seen around here since launch, your list will be ignored.

Last thing: I'd considered buying into the Anno series. I even considered procuring a "preview" copy, just in case it sucked. Right now I don't even care . . . You just sold a copy of the game. I'm looking at steam and it's $15 dlc +$30 for the game.

Why? Even if i don't like it, it's worth supporting people that not only clearly know what they're doing, but are trying to be supportive of their competitive peers. Because your list here shows an attention to detail (not just in the content, but the presentation) that comes with experience. . . what i mean is that it would have been easy to halfass this list but instead, it seems like you know what you're doing. Therefore I can't imagine that the Anno games would suck.

Buying it right the **** now... If nothing else, wasting money on this crotch-nugget piece of crap turned me on to Anno 2070

Except . . . HALT. Steam says that it's run out of keys . . . well, i'll keep an eye on it.
birdtable
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Post by birdtable »

Anno 1404 my fave .... £6 for the Gold at Amazon ... Played them all ..brilliant. ..... Really hope Ego read CoolcatJumpan suggestions .. have not started trading to many hiccups .... No mods No edits.....

If Moderators think this off subject then clean up the forum from the persistent personal attacks and opinions.
Lc4Hunter
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Post by Lc4Hunter »

Why do you now start talking about the Anno-series? What has this to do with technical problems of XRebirth?
Please try to keep this thread clean, so the developers have an actual chance to keep up with the discussion
In my opinion the whole UI-concept is not well thought and unsuitable for the controlling of this sort of game... it´s too complex.
To have the options like in older x-titles you need to have dozens of submenus you have to select und of cource to move back when leaving them.

The old style (of X3) was much more suitable than this. Egosoft should focus the roots of the game and discard the wish to make the game gamepad-suitable... it was a try and it failed.

To the other points:
CC13:
Definition from Wikipedia:
"Squad corresponds to be a subunit, which consists of 8-12 soldiers and is commanded by a sergeant"
=> in my opinion it would make more sense to create several squads. A squad is a subunit, but we can still one squad with the player as leader. But why i should have a quad that consists of (just for example) 2...3...4 tradeships ... and me?
Ok, maybe if you want to buy a huge amount of 1 ware at one station that has the capacity. But typically you have 1 tradeship and maybe an escort, or a complete squad of military ships.
And of course we should be able to give them own orders related to the type of squad (military, trading with several ships/with escort, and so on).
Scorpion2810
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Post by Scorpion2810 »

CC19 : start a drone and get it back, no Need to save and reload.
CoolcatJumpman
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Post by CoolcatJumpman »

CC31: What about removing all physical display screens from the cockpit and replacing everything with a free floating holographic HUD?
That way the UI designer has much more freedom in placing useful information on the screen. Also it is much more flexible and easier to expand for future AddOns. Assuming you expose the API modders could even create additional screens or partially replace them. (Examples: CC28, or squad screen from CC13)
Also you have the full screen available when needed. E.g. the trade and ship/station menus currently waste a lot of space.

Of course I can't be sure from looking at it, but the UI looks self implemented. Consider buying an UI solution (e.g. Scaleform/Flash) instead of implementing your own. That way you have easy access to all that little fade/animation stuff that can massively improve the look and feel of a UI. Also you can use professional editors/tools which allows to iterate on UI prototypes much faster.
Guest

Post by Guest »

CC32:Every product of a plant need an own storage to prevent overflow and stop of production

CC33: One click information about the content of a plant, otherwise planing of new own plants is needless complicated

CC34: More orders for drones. For example
- defend my ship
- defend ship xy
- attack rockets
- attack all enemies
- attack my target
Last edited by Guest on Wed, 15. Jan 14, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.
linolafett
EGOSOFT
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Post by linolafett »

Good thread, will continue following it! :)
birdtable
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Post by birdtable »

Regretfully it is only a good thread if someone takes notice and acts upon it otherwise just blowing smoke, excellent smoke but smoke never the less.
Shame because there are some excellent insights.
Wana
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Post by Wana »

First of all, steam playtime is not relevant compared to savegame time. In my case, Steam shows 150h+ in X:R, but my savegame is less than 65h of played. Alt-Tab and idling in menu is counted in steam.
I don't count false campaign starts in previous versions for a good reason. (know how to play a game before whining)

I'm not a programmer, but more an Ad editor. In this case, i can't really see the message Ego wants to give to players :)
Have fun / Good luck / die and try / Where is Charlie game / We hope you've enjoyed X star tours.
I started X with X3TC on mac. And if you're not happy with X:R, think about less lucky people which found being stuck after 8 days of playtime and this mega complex too big to handle, built 4 days ago. Fortunately, X3TC/AP on PC were enjoyable on steam.

Anyway, CC you spot some good points, even if your list is unordered and sometimes difficult to read, but if Ego read this or better, PRINT this, it might worth a good step ahead.

First, your points :
CC01 I'm a programmer... play sessions..
=> not telling obvious bugs that came before or after the first patches (trade and Co.) This game has been released in a rush with a working campaign. And in that campaign, you need almost nothing, unfortunately

CC02 False good idea. The problem, for a complex game is simple Radial menus. 6 - 8 - 10 choices will not change this aspect. It's simply not adapted to this game. And if no-one @Ego has the guts to make it better, like a dropdown list and sublist, they can do something like this sticking with a semi-radial :
[ external image ]
But without heavy involvment, we can't expect players (old and new) to like/love this game because of that utterly wrong design. It's just not fun.

CC03 : Ships should have names! ...
=> Yes and no. Actually, this is quite easy to name them in your savegame. It has to be implemented in game, but this kind of lacked feature is due entirely to console and gamepad players like... you (at least for the gamepad) :)
Ego should not loose time to create a virtual keyboard, unless they want to port it definitely to console. KB/Mouse is required to DO COMPLEX things. When they'll understand that, we'll take a leap.

=> Like before, what we need is sub-sections. Capital combat ships / Capital trade / Corvette based ships / Fighters based ships and so on.
It's already a pain when you command over 10 ships. even if they're numbered like mine. (Taranis01...)

CC07 : Allow to cancel trade orders individually
=> It's nice to read, but would lead to corruption in the actual game state. when you order a buy, the ware is reserved in your ship and in the station. if you cancel a buy order, but not the sell order (queued), your ship will go stuck selling 0xx for 0credits.


CC15: Additional orders for defense officer
=> Honestly, don't dream too much about line of sight.
I think it was M.A.R.S. script in X3 that prevented ship to fire near stations. The problem here, is station are a lot more complex than before. Even tiny fighters ships will hit the station when engaging too close.
2 : Ok, but with a permanent hotkey. not buried in 10 sub-menus.

CC17 : ... the menu would not cancel travel in a highway
=> not sure to understand. In highways, it's the only moment to play with menus, because you're not stopping. The main problem, is you can't get out without cancelling 10 sub-menus, again.

CC20 : Cutscenes can't be canceled...
=> i don't advise you to skip those things, apart encyclopedia. do it during your escape from albion, and the gate will never open.


CC24 : It's a feature of course. My engineer, located in Maelstrom, can repair my ship when i'm playing with Squash Mines in Devries. :D


CC25 : UI is more than often stuck. It doesn't like the "details" menu when looking in station modules (storage/wares/Tesla...)
Because of that, i can't play in fullscreen windowed.


CC27 : Campaign is working in 1.0. (or 1.21)
unfortunately, the campaign is useless. You build a weird factory, capital combat is not exciting at all (maybe you didn't noticed Allied Capital ships are invincible against PMC/Xenons), and it does not require a large investment from you. That's why many (if not all) people which has finished the campaign said : That's all ?

to your points more specifically, i assume you're talking about the PMC Overwatch station in DeVries :
1 : Bug. Taranis spawn is an infinite loop. if you destroy one, another pops. But in my case, Taranises were nasty.
2 : ?? Destroy Taranis before Nakano arrives = focus on station. if not, focus on taranis. Then retreat in front of incoming Reivers.
=>LoL, with 7 Taranises and 2 arawns, i smashed this zone, but need to retreat anyway.
=>If you go help Falk Borman in Albion side, you will notice a huge fight starting between him and PMC. unfortunately, he's invincible at 30% hull. :evil:
3 : Script power.


CC29: Fast iterate list items
Again, it's the gamepad fault if X:R is in a mess.
Using KB, just use pagedown/pageup for fast iteration.

CC30 : Directly select the same ware
=> Too bad your list is not ordered.
This is important in the trade section, and should be CC04 or something.

--------------
And for those who kept reading this far, my google funny translated french post (even in perfect french, google translation is a lame) condensed :

General W01 : Campaign investment :
- Required builds/captures more capital/ fighter ships and USE them.
- Allies protection (they can die) with our fleet
- it's very hard to say, but i miss the hub plot. The thin crazy red line mission which requires you to rule the galaxy.

General W02 : Miscellaneous :
- Make squads / control squads and formations.
- Capital ships placements in crowded area.
- So many little things to improve the game further.

Screen W03 : Faster access (almost instant).
Keeping basic emergency ship control (speed/direction) while navigating in menu. 45° angle, not 90°.

Screen W04 : commerce screen :
- Sort wares by systems/zone/galaxy
- Sort wares by category (i don't care having 3 pages of URV (n+6 ware) when i'm looking for Plasma pumps (n+5 ware))
Yes it is possible. My first attempt to draw wares pattern :
[ external image ]
(i'm currently doing something more precise, and in fact, it looks like someone at egosoft liked the planetary interaction in EveOnline.)

- Buy and sell menus at the same time. (screen divided /2)

Trade W05 : General trading orders :
- Pay a scout to... scout station prices in others systems. It is advisable if Ego dosen't not want a perma-Satellite grid like in X3. (but, admit it, it was useful ! )
- Trade queue dependant from commander's skills.
- Of course, condensed exchange within the same station and different wares.

-----------

Off topic :

- Remove pre-order X:R from website
- Update forum editing, like i don't need to do my post elsewhere for a better aspect, then copy/paste here :)
(hello embedded url links)

That's was a long post sorry 'bout that.
Sujic
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Post by Sujic »

Wana wrote: CC07 : Allow to cancel trade orders individually
=> It's nice to read, but would lead to corruption in the actual game state. when you order a buy, the ware is reserved in your ship and in the station. if you cancel a buy order, but not the sell order (queued), your ship will go stuck selling 0xx for 0credits.
Simple fix, and all that is needed actually: cancel last order. The orders can only be canceled in the reverse order they are given.
Thank God I am atheist.
CoolcatJumpman
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Post by CoolcatJumpman »

Wana wrote:CC02 False good idea. The problem, for a complex game is simple Radial menus. 6 - 8 - 10 choices will not change this aspect.
The radial menus are actually quite good in principle. You can navigate them quickly with a gamepad as well as a keyboard, if you KNOW the menus. If you play with mouse only then dropdown and sublists might be better. But keyboard shortcuts like 2-5-1 will always be faster than any mouse input.
The only thing I requested was a better organized menu structure, so you have quicker access to the often needed stuff.
Wana wrote:CC03
Ego should not loose time to create a virtual keyboard, unless they want to port it definitely to console.
Yes, no virtual keyboard. Even when sitting on my couch, playing with a gamepad, I have a wireless keyboard within reach. If I have to enter text or something, I will use that of course!
Wana wrote:CC07 It's nice to read, but would lead to corruption in the actual game state. when you order a buy, the ware is reserved in your ship and in the station.
As I wrote, you can get this to work. BUT it is complicate to implement as you have to manage dependencies between the orders and delete these dependencies as well. However, in the end it might lead to confusing results for the player, because it is not immediately clear which orders will be deleted. => Therefore: Just allow to delete the last order, because here it's clear what the result will be.
Wana wrote:CC17 => not sure to understand. In highways, it's the only moment to play with menus, because you're not stopping.
Ah, I was thinking pressing the B button for "back" was also leaving the highway. However, I just tried....it's the left stick causing the problem:
When playing with a gamepad you use your left stick and the A button to navigate the menus. If you don't use the exact timing for the A button, you switch between highway lanes as that is done with the left stick as well. When you switch one too much, you leave the highway of course. The same also happens when in normal space, but there you strafe only a bit, which normally isn't a problem. Probably flight control should be disabled on gamepad while in a menu?
Wana wrote:Screen W03 Keeping basic emergency ship control (speed/direction)
Well, not on the gamepad please, see above problem. What about a key to quit the menu? Pressing LB and RB at the same time or something?
Wana wrote:CC27 Script power.
Yep, there is sometimes a little bit too much script power in this "fully simulated (...)(universe) in which every action has consequences" ;)
Wana wrote:CC29: Fast iterate list items
Again, it's the gamepad fault if X:R is in a mess.
Using KB, just use pagedown/pageup for fast iteration.
Why not spend a few minutes (probably <1h) to implement this simple thing for those of us who like to play XR on their big FullHD-TV screen while sitting on a comfortable couch?
birdtable
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Post by birdtable »

@ CoolcatJumpan .... (Even when sitting on my couch, playing with a gamepad) .... Get the impression you are trying to get an input method to work for the most unpopular controller to use in the X Series ... Very few would play on a couch with a gamepad. .... The lack of depth in the game so as to enable a gamepad is the cause of the "laying to waste of the fanbase" ...

I know my family would object to me hogging the main tv while I stretch out on the sofa ..... unless of course the only players are single or have very docile partners.

Bernd made the same mistake......

Need your insights to work with mouse, keyboard, joystick. ....
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Santi
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Post by Santi »

Yes, CC17 problem is the left stick, so you either ignore the minigame and keep centering your ship to the middle lane after each menu choice, play two minigames, following ships and trying to time your A button presses, or you don't use the menu.
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dlonrar
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Post by dlonrar »

CoolcatJumpman, good list - hopefully egosoft are listening - they did not get where they where in the X series without listening to gamers. However it may take a few years and hundreds of updates to correct this software engine and its game bugs. Or they should declare in game what can be done eg build resources required for ships.

Surely this post should be in general discussion forum ? so, ego are not listening !!
Guest

Post by Guest »

CC35: Please write a manual! Really open points are:
- stars of NPC, what is the meaning, what is necessary for the different locations?
- behavior of Manager, when does he sell, which prices, why not a slider for "normal", "cheap", "expensive"
- placement of plants, what is the meaning of the current buttons?
- ...

CC36: The ship seller shouldn't accept build orders, when he doesn't have enough products in store. He should say for example: "We need scannerfields and bio optic fibers for building", or he should ask. "Do you really wnt to build a ship? We need following products to produce the ship: "list of missing products"

CC37: Ship sellers should buy ships independend from producing one

CC38: Transfer of products between own ships and own plant without trade menue and without cash flow

CC39: Replacement of NPC in ships and plant should be allowed. Than we would have the option, to train the NPC first with easy jobs, ships, what ever and for complicate plants and important batlle ship we could use our best "material"

CC40: Construction ship should be installed into plant. Stores of ship and plant should be the same, Plant port should be used for construction ship too. The construction ship should be defended together with the plant. For the start, just delete the construktion ship, after finished the first module and transfer NPC and products into the new plant.

CC41: There is no possibility to bring building and transportation drones into a plant. If point CC40 is accepted, the drones of the contruction ship will be at the plant and the player have to think first, how many carriere drones he want to have on the plant.

CC42: The plant manager should only order new products wheh he have enough cash. At the moment he ordered what ever he need to fill his storage, but without cash, rahaanas from other plants pile up in the surrounding.

(please excuse my really bad english, but I never use it very much after leaving school thirty years ago. I have played over 150h now and the fun decrease with every hour. But I'm still hoping X-Rebirth will be the best of all X-Universes when all bugs were fixed and a few necessary features will be added )

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