Flying other ships?

lsc9x · Post by **lsc9x** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 00:37

I know this has been a hot topic of discussion for a while now, but I wanted to add my 2 cents worth, having been the Mission Designer on a PC game called "Far Gate" which was a space-based 3D RTS.

When you build a game, there are two constraints that you are constantly working with: Time and Assets.

Time dictates the milestones you need to reach in a set period of time in order to get the game done and keep things on track, get the game released on time, and within budget. The second constraint, assets, really comes down to a function of how many assets can you build in a set period of time, and to what level of detail based on how many people you have working on it.

One of the problems comes down to time vs. number of developers. Before you begin a game, you have a ton of ideas, but as you go on, you start to run into time constraints, and some ideas are just too complex or too time consuming to implement, and so things get cut out. Eventually, through a constant process of adding, then testing out concepts, and then either adopting them or eliminating them, the game starts to "form", rather organically, around the core set of principles that you set out with before you develop the game.

Egosoft does not appear to be a huge company. Why is this important?

Our company, Super X Studios, was merely 10 people at the time I worked there: 2 programmers (one lead, who also doubled as producer), 2 visual artists (the second artist was also the test team lead), 2 audio engineers/musical producers, 1 primary mission designer (me) and 3 testers. All of us wore "many hats". For example, I didn't just do the mission design, but also got a music credit, and our lead tester was actually part of the art team. It didn't matter to us who did what, all the mattered was getting the game WE wanted to make out on time, and within budget. There are a lot of LONG days, and for the last 4 days, almost none of us slept more than 3-4 hours a night, and we all moved into the office for the final "push".

Egosoft may not be a much larger than we were, and if they are small team, then what then have accomplished is literally STAGGERING for a small developer. This is why it took 7 years to do, and I am glad that they focused on the "big picture" rather than getting bogged down in trying to design the deck areas of every type of ship as well as everything else. You CAN focus too much energy and dev time into the wrong things, and you wind up with a partially complete, and albeit BAD game. This is a critical pitfall, and may make or break a game. Actually, it DOES make or break a game.

So, why only one ship to pilot? Well, look at it this way: Egosoft leveraged their assets (people, time and money) to build a huge, living universe, maintaining the depth of the X series, making it more accessible to new players, creating an entirely new interface for the game etc. I believe that their methodology is sound, and the results speak for themselves. Everything they did is a tall order. There are no shortcuts, someone had to do all the art, and then all of that had to be translated into 3D. That alone takes a TON of time, and if you added all the ships' bridges into the game, you just increased your art department's work by 1/3 to 1/2 at least!

Building even a single ship in this highly detailed universe requires a LOT of work. For one, everything is modeled inside and out for the "skunk". Everything is animated, the lighting is dynamic, the characters and devices move with animations, and all the screens of the ship are integrated into the game menus (and all the graphics had to be done for that as well). Not to mention all the possible upgrades etc. The bottom line is that doing 1 ship to this level of detail is pretty impressive considering everything else that they worked on. A new ship to fly isn't a 15 minute job, each ship could take weeks to concept, develop art for, program etc. So if you decided to make ALL of the ships flyable, you are talking about a huge amount of work for a relatively small detail in comparison to everything else that is being developed.

So, what's my take on all this?

Do ONE ship, and get it done RIGHT for the release of the game. This is exactly what they have done.

Yes, this is the bare minimum and might make X players feel a bit alienated, but you have to remember that once the proof of concept works for 1 ship, then these exact same principles can be used to build more flyable ships after the release date.

Personally, I'd rather have the game done right to begin with, and then maybe the extra ship piloting can be added later on in expansion packs, upgrades etc.

There has been so much of a backlash about having only 1 flyable ship at release that the developers have now stated that they would be considering adding more ships to fly if enough people say they want it. You should read this statement as: "We are open to designing more flyable ships, but it's a BIG job so we're only going to do it if people are willing to pay for all that additional work." (NOT an actual quote from Egosoft, I just made that up to illustrate a possible reason.)

So, let's put this to the test with a poll:

Would you be willing to pay money for an XR expansion pack that enabled players to fly more than 1 ship, or maybe even all of them?

(Keep in mind, before answering that question, that to make every ship flyable, you are talking about 1/3 to 1/2 as much work as it took to make the ENTIRE X Rebirth game!)

Personally, I'm fine with one ship, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks again to Egosoft! You guys rock, I've already pre-ordered the game on Steam, and I can't wait to play X Rebirth! PLEASE let us know if there will be any additional betas. I will beta the shit out of this game. =)

Wraith_Magus · Post by **Wraith_Magus** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 01:02

Where's the option for, "why shouldn't this be included in the base game?"

I don't see why we need to have unique detailed interiors for every ship in the game.

(I don't see the need for interiors for any ship in the game, for that matter.)

Just let us fly the ships, since it's what the ships DO, not how much litter is on their corridor floors that matter. I'd be happy with copy-pasted ship interiors if we just got to fly every ship. (I'd be happier without ship interiors at all.)

As far as I have read, the single ship thing isn't a matter of not being able to make all the interiors, (which they seem to have been fine making tons of for the stations, and could have easily cut-and-paste pieces of station interior into making ship interiors, as well,) but of having the ability to force players into specific plot points with specific weapons loadouts or specific ships for specific cutscenes for plot purposes, not for budget purposes.

Nomadski · Post by **Nomadski** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 01:09

I haven't got any issue with handing my money over to Egosoft for any thing they produce, but I think we should be playing the game and seeing the direction Egosoft have decided to take with the X series before we get so het up about the one ship thing.

They have designed this game around one player ship, with controllable (via commands) service ships there to do the dirty work for us.

I realise this may not be to everyones tastes, but I'm willing to live in my ship for a while and see where she takes me.

So I don't want them spending resources on this, would rather get track ir integration, bugs sorted, (almost certain) optimisation completed, player HQ in there, owned zones integrated and a whole bunch of other stuff before things not designed to be in the game was developed.

I'm sure I'm in the minority but hey.

Wraith_Magus · Post by **Wraith_Magus** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 01:17

I just don't see why they should have spent money or effort on cockpits at all. The HUD was just fine. I never asked for a return to cockpits - they just take up valuable HUD real estate, and make the displays harder to read. Walking around ship interiors just wastes valuable flying time looking at the same interiors over and over. I spend at least as much time in a menu or staring at icons on a map as I spend flying, anyway, making any interior decorations superfluous at best, and obnoxious at worst.

If we just got rid of cockpits and ship interiors, we'd eliminate this reason not to keep multiple ships, and save Egosoft money. Where's the loss in that?

hourheroyes · Post by **hourheroyes** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 01:41

Great, intelligently worded OP post. People shouldn't forget that as Bernd likes to say, release is 1.0--implying further updates. What we're getting, fresh out of the box, is a hugely redefined, extremely detailed BASE UNIVERSE. Yes, there's the plot, and yes, some things will be unpleasant until some attention is paid to them, but the sky is seriously the limit with how far these games can go. Look at XRM and XTC, for two examples of the kinds of things that can be done with an amazing base layer.

Nomadski · Post by **Nomadski** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 01:42

Some of us like the cockpit. Some were crying out for it all the way through the X3 series.

Wheres the loss? Immersion for some.

I have the same trepidation about station interiors as you, granted, but I like the idea Ill be able to get out of my chair and feel like I'm in a real 3 dimensional space, rather than just looking at a screen of space.

Alci · Post by **Alci** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 02:00

there is no choice like "idk, need to see how the game works with one ship first". Developers are aware "the issue" and they asked people to wait and decide AFTER they play this version. I do have intention to honor that wish. I may feel I would like more ship now. But there is really no final answer to "would you pay for more ships?" question right. I honestly don't know.

CutterJohn1 · Post by **CutterJohn1** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 02:47

lsc9x wrote:So, why only one ship to pilot? Well, look at it this way: Egosoft leveraged their assets (people, time and money) to build a huge, living universe, maintaining the depth of the X series, making it more accessible to new players, creating an entirely new interface for the game etc. I believe that their methodology is sound, and the results speak for themselves. Everything they did is a tall order. There are no shortcuts, someone had to do all the art, and then all of that had to be translated into 3D. That alone takes a TON of time, and if you added all the ships' bridges into the game, you just increased your art department's work by 1/3 to 1/2 at least!

You are absolutely correct that creating a detailed interior takes a lot of time and effort, and that making one for every ship is likely impossible for the size of their team. It really just isn't an efficient use of resources.

But, they've managed to appease the 'I love cockpits!' crowd while annoying the 'I don't want arbitrary restrictions in my sandbox!' crowd. Not a step forward, a step sideways, because even if they add more player ships, you will never be able to pilot every ship.

So whats my take on this issue?

Go with the third route. Model one detailed cockpit. Allow all ships to be flyable.

"But CJ", you ask, "Wouldn't that be completely unrealistic?"

Not if you do it right. Its quite simple. Give the player a single playership. A small shuttle sized ship that has a decently roomy interior and behaves like a nice heavy fighter. Then allow it to dock to any ship in the game(we may have to forgo fighters here) by utilizing a common docking berth. Bam. You've now appeased both crowds. You have your detailed ship interior. You have the ability to pilot the extra ships.

And as an added bonus, you have the ability to treat the players shuttle as a lifeboat and captains gig, which will allow the large ship the player is currently flying to be destroyed without the game over screen, and allow players in a more unwieldy craft such as a hauler to make a quick trip to a station without docking their ship.

Later on, for variety, you can add additional command shuttle styles, should there be a demand for such things.

Too late for all that now, of course, but that would have been the compromise solution that made everyone happy and was within their budget.

lsc9x · Post by **lsc9x** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 07:27

CutterJohn1 wrote:
lsc9x wrote: Not if you do it right. Its quite simple. Give the player a single playership. A small shuttle sized ship that has a decently roomy interior and behaves like a nice heavy fighter. Then allow it to dock to any ship in the game(we may have to forgo fighters here) by utilizing a common docking berth. Bam. You've now appeased both crowds. You have your detailed ship interior. You have the ability to pilot the extra ships.

And as an added bonus, you have the ability to treat the players shuttle as a lifeboat and captains gig, which will allow the large ship the player is currently flying to be destroyed without the game over screen, and allow players in a more unwieldy craft such as a hauler to make a quick trip to a station without docking their ship.

Later on, for variety, you can add additional command shuttle styles, should there be a demand for such things.

Too late for all that now, of course, but that would have been the compromise solution that made everyone happy and was within their budget.
Agreed on all that! From what I have seen, read etc. about X Rebirth, there will be the ability to pilot other ships, just not from your main ship. You assign NPCs to pilot the ships for you, but you can land on the ships and see the battle from the deck.

On the surface this may seem to limit the fun factor by removing the option of manually commanding the capital ships, but the way Egosoft describes it, their AI actually knows how to maneuver around around the the space stations more effectively, and in a more efficient manner than a human, and the ship's captain still follows your orders. So, the ships will still follow your commands, but the grunt work of actual station navigation is removed from the equation, thereby allowing you (presumably) to focus solely on strategic battle tasks and tasks you perform on The Skunk and with your drones.

Sounds freaking awesome if you ask me, and as far as I have read that's what's in store.

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 09:14

TBH Allthough I voted "Maybe, depends on other features", the simple answer is a I don't know - which is the way I would have probably voted if there was such an option

How can I tell if the game needs a given feature/ability/expansion until I have actually tried the game itself

Aesran · Post by **Aesran** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 09:45

Wraith_Magus wrote:I just don't see why they should have spent money or effort on cockpits at all. The HUD was just fine. I never asked for a return to cockpits -

You know, you are not alone in X community .. Me and other player like have a Cockpit ..

And that not because Cockpit you can"t fly another ship, so i don't see the problem with them.

I like cockpit, so don't say "Why they should have spent" ..

And for poll, i answer when the game is out, because before, we can"t really see how drive only one ship it is.

Burneyx · Post by **Burneyx** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 09:51

Well, for me the one ship thing is not so important then it seems to some others.
So i voted: Maybe, it would depend on additional content

Yes, im more sharpened for the new content and the resulting possibilities.

AgamemnonArgon · Post by **AgamemnonArgon** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 09:57

It's far too old fashioned to fly just one ship.

smithy87 · Post by **smithy87** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 10:10

Great post OP, its refreshing to see someone posting on this subject that is keeping an open mind! I am perfectly happy with only having one ship, to me it's kinda more realistic in several ways. If Egosoft release a future update similar to XT for X:BTF that introduces more ships then I will be happy to buy it, as long as they spend the time getting XR 1.0 running smooth I am sure there will be plenty to keep me entertained! As for those saying that they hate the idea and wont buy it/will mod it, no one is forcing you to buy it or play it vanilla and while i fully respect your opinion, attacking the devs or people who say they are happy with the game is not on! Rant over

thanks for a series of awesome and unique game Egosoft!

Cheers,

Smithy

JClosed · Post by **JClosed** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 10:45

It is hard to please everyone. When you make a ship interior, you please one part of the crowd, and irritate another. All those people complaining ES did not listen to them, should ask themselves: "but in what parts they DID they listen to me? And those parts that pleases me - isn't that something others dislike?"

Seen in that light is completely impossible to please everyone.

Another point is (and I made that before).. Don't judge what you know about X Rebirth (and that's not too much) while looking at it trough the cross hairs of the previous X games. It is stated over and over again X Rebirth is not a continuation of the previous X series: in other words it is NOT X4! In stead X while Rebirth is based on the X universe, and has some similarities, it's NOT X3 on steroids. It is something completely new, and -may I say so- refreshing.

So demanding X3-thingies in X Rebirth is maybe not wise at all. I think it's hard for some people to grasp, but I could be actually fun to fly one ship, and modify the hell out of it. We just don't know, because nobody has played the full game yet. It might be fully possible that people that are extremely upset about missing huge ships now, are asking themselves "what the hell was I thinking - this is much more fun" a few weeks or months after release (the opposite could also be true, but we just don't know).

To be honest - I do not think I would have bought an X4 (well - not within a year at least) that would just be a polished-up continuation of X3. I am certainly buying X Rebirth, just because it is new and refreshing. Yes - things are different, and that's just what I wanted!

Must we "mod" old grey X3-thingies back in X Rebirth? That remains to be seen. Let me play X Rebirth for a few weeks or months and I probably can give you an answer. Right now? I really cannot say - and so do all those people complaining now.

So - I will ask for (and maybe pay for) extensions if they make sense AFTER playing the game. It could easily be the case that the extensions we want around that time, will be something we cannot even imagine right now....

Rabiator der II. · Post by **Rabiator der II.** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 10:47

Wraith_Magus wrote:As far as I have read, the single ship thing isn't a matter of not being able to make all the interiors, (which they seem to have been fine making tons of for the stations, and could have easily cut-and-paste pieces of station interior into making ship interiors, as well,) but of having the ability to force players into specific plot points with specific weapons loadouts or specific ships for specific cutscenes for plot purposes, not for budget purposes.

If that is the reason, I'd have to agree with those who complain about making the game more linear and dumbing it down

.

If specific cut scenes are more important than the freedom to fly different ships, that would be a direction that differs from earlier X games a lot and I'd not be happy with it. Specific weapons loadouts could be in the mission briefing ("you'll need drone type X, we recommend to bring at least three of those").

Night Nord · Post by **Night Nord** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 10:56

You people forget about one important thing - testing. If there are 2 playerships, each mission/each feature should be tested on both. If all ships are flyable then all the features should be tested on all ships.

And hey, what the sense of flying in wielder capital ship if you can't control wielder drones? So let's make wielder controls! And mining controls! And other stuff too! And turret controls with a lot of configuration, because player don't want his turrets to shot this guy who is just about to bail.

Really guys, try to look a bit outside of your shell - it's all so obvious.

And for those who believe that there should be no cockpits, no walk on stations no other-stuff-you-dont-like-or-like-less - stagnation is death. If you make a complete rewrite from scratch, you are shooting to cover as much fundamental features as possible to be future-proof. And to do that, you make bare minimum at each feature.

There is no feature "fly multiple ships". There is feature "fly ship" and bare minimum will be "fly one ship". Wasting time on making more ships is just, well... waste of time! And making shortcuts - i.e. not implementing all the above - bad-bad move as it will annoy people even more.

DaddyMonster · Post by **DaddyMonster** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 11:50

Firstly, this is a fresh and interesting take on the one player ship debate that has been heading round in circles for a while. So, I'll join the many here saying hats off to you.

I'm in the camp that's happy with the one ship in the sense that I understand the priorities of doing one thing well, with greater scope, within a driven plot that Bernd has talked about.

But DLC which opens this up to more ships, particularly if they can dream up nice plots to justify and engage, ABSOLUTELY.

xleto2 · Post by **xleto2** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 13:26

Flying more than 1 ship + how many drones isn't so important to me. But it's definitely a nice feature, so I hope it'll be done in the future. But I voted No, I don't want to pay for each and every feature they add. Bernd said they'd like to add free features through updates, and maybe real expansions for money, and I fully agree with that.

Earth Ultimatum IV. · Post by **Earth Ultimatum IV.** » Thu, 5. Sep 13, 15:13

I voted for "yes", but not because I would hate the "one player ship only" feature, but because I want to support Egosoft and I buy everything.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Flying other ships?

Would you be willing to pay money for an XR expansion pack that enabled players to fly more than 1 ship, or maybe even all of them?

Flying other ships?

Re: Flying other ships?

Re: Flying other ships?