Capping Xenon Capitals

[Cursed Ghost]

Hi all

I’m curious how do you take Xenon Capitals because I’m getting nowhere I send in 21 elite commandos all of whom are on 100 for everything yet for some reason they can’t take the ship I’ve scanned it and there are no internal defences or troops so I don’t understand why I can’t take the dam thing because even RFF ships which are notoriously difficult to take don’t usually present an issue once I get my troops on board.

regardless of whether they have internal defences or other troops on board my commandos usually make it through the ship with out incident and usually without losses yet the same 21 commandos who've taken countless other capital ships are completely unable to take this one and I don't get why because I've taken the Valhalla and the Kyoto so surely I should be able to take a lowly J with out casualties, it should be possible others have taken Xenon Capitals without casualties.

So what's going on ? because right now I cant even get to the core hacking because by the time I'm hitting decks 4 and 5 all my people are dead

[MarvinTheMartian]

I was reading this the other day although I can't remember how I found it, anyway despite being for TC there's a lot of info regarding Xenon capital boarding (and Js being the hardest!).
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=277510

Obviously boarding is different in AP so reloading won't work (as well) any more but it is possible. The Xenon do not require Marines or ISL to be deadly to your boarding crew and I've also seen here that you may need to be prepared to lose a few more marines by sending a 2nd wave (although that was a guide to boarding the I IIRC). I boarded a few Qs in TC but that's all and nothing Xenon yet in AP

[Jimmy C]

Before anything, are you playing TC or AP? They treat boarding differently and the way to get flawless Xenon boarding in TC won't work in AP. The rest of this post refers to AP Xenon boarding.

I had quite a bit written up, but I'll just direct you to what I wrote when I first started capping Xenon capitals a year ago. Pay attention to what I wrote about when to launch reinforcements.

There are two rules when it comes to boarding Xenon capitals.

First, there will be losses, even if you're using all maxed marines. Accept that or don't bother boarding them. Only the luckiest of flukes will let you board an I without losses. In over 40 I boardings in my last game, only twice have the boarding team suffered no casualites. The reinforcements were all killed thanks to that, though.

The second rule about capturing Xenon ships is, you need sixteen marines hacking the core. If you don't have that, all your remaining marines will die when they clear the last deck.

So bring along reinforcements, preferably in another M7M, you will need them, and launch them even before the initial team breaches the hull.

[pref]

Xenon always have internal defences, just those dont show up. You can assume it has everything that is possible to have and a bit more.

If you are in AP and trying to save at each deck then forget that - AP decides the outcome in advance, when the marines enter the ship. You can only override that result by sending reinforcements or reloading a save before the marines are through the hull.
And you will need reinforcements most likely - there is a very low chance for lossless boarding.

Usually i could do it with 2 extra waves only or less (with 5 or 10 per wave).
Best to have at least 2 M7Ms, i never have the time during ops to select/teleport marines for the launch (first extra wave has to start around hull penetration, so busy times).
First has to be the Sirokos with 21. Starting with a full 21 team has significant effect on losses.

[Cursed Ghost]

Before anything, are you playing TC or AP?

AP

I know in TC you can save and reload deck by deck but usually that’s not necessary if you are using 21 troops at 100 in everything, normally regardless of whether it’s TC or AP I’ll only save twice once after I finish the set up and I have my intended target far enough away that I can do everything I need to do without being disturbed, and once at the core so if the loot that I’m after vanishes after hacking the core I can reload and try again.

Normally when you are using 21 maxed commodes they make internal defences obsolete and will take even the most heavily protected ships without an issue whether that’s in AP or TC at least that’s what I have found with every other ship I’ve taken.

Having said that I’ve never tried taking Xenon ships before because there was simply no point as the commonwealth offerings where just as good and in most cases far batter and easier to acquire if somewhat more expensive.

I have to say though these Xenon Capitals are something else I’ve never had so much trouble taking a ship in my life not since I tried to space walk my first victim normally once I get my people onboard they will walk right pasts there defences like there not even there, well provided I’m using 21 troops all at 100 in everything that is.

Why is it that Xenon capitals are so much harder to take I could understand this level of difficulty when trying to take an I as that is easily the strongest capital ship in the game so it should be hard to acquire but not for J’s or K’s since not only are they are no better then there Commonwealth/Terran equivalents they are in most regards quiet a bit weaker then there Commonwealth/Terran equivalents.

I mean really what is the point in taking Xenon capitals? With the exception of the I there not useful as combat craft not when the ships they are facing are stronger then they are and there not useful for making a profit due to being retardedly difficult to take

The irony in this is I wouldn't even mind taking the losses if not for the fact that they take so bloody long to replace if I could train a team up from 0 to 100 and replace my losses in half an hour to an hour real time then fine but if I'm going to have to wait days or weeks real time to train up a squad from 0 to 100 then I need to be doing the boardings without losses because I simply cant afford to take losses when they take so long to replace this is something I hope Ego fix in the next patch well assuming that it actually metallises that is

If I'm going to have this much trouble taking Xenon ships then realistically it’s probably not worth bothering with any other xenon ship other then the I and even then I'll probably only take 1 and the just RE it later once I get the player HQ

[Bill Huntington]

I haven't tried the Xenon capitals in AP. As you said, they're not the best, so why?

It's like the Aran in TC. It's a quest. Useful for anything besides storage? It's been discussed, but no clear answer.

I save boarding Xenon for the last thing I did in a game, before I start over. Then I don't mind losing the hard-won marines, that took sooo long to train. I'm leaving anyway.

One pilot says that REing a J or K is cheaper at the PHQ than the CW equivalent. Like we can't buy or board whatever we want at a certain point in the game.

So it's a trophy. Enjoy it.

[Jimmy C]

I mean really what is the point in taking Xenon capitals?

Whether it's "worth it" or not is a matter of individual tolerance. For myself, I only lost interest in the effort because I just left a few dozen captured I's floating around.

The irony in this is I wouldn't even mind taking the losses if not for the fact that they take so bloody long to replace

I could tell you how to get marines trained much faster, relatively speaking. Take combat missions and capture the ships instead of destroying them. Take the skilled marines that ejected from these captured ships for your own use. As the marines on these boardings max out their Fight skill, send them to training until they max out everything else. Replace with the marines you captured.

Keep doing this until the maxed marines start to emerge from training. At that point, you will have new maxed marines practically every hour. You'll have more maxed marines than you know what to do with.

Lastly, please learn to use proper punctuation. Full stops are to be used at the end of sentences, not just the end of paragraphs. It's quite a strain to read your posts.

[RAVEN.myst]

Actually, J and K ships are worth capping (one of each) for reverse engineering and then spamming out, if you fancy a robot-drone capital ship armada Both of those ships have extremely low build costs and times for their classes. Granted, stats-wise they are not amazing, but since each of them is built a lot cheaper and faster than a frigate (more like a corvette in the case of the J, in fact), you are actually getting exceptionally good value for money/time.

[Cursed Ghost]

So finally managed to take Xenon I found one by the north gate of Xenon core 23 it was heavily damaged at 47% hull, but unlike the other I that was near by and at 100% this one had no escort, so I was able to lure it away alone.

I took it 200km out so that I wouldn’t be interrupted and then took it over, of the 21 commandoes I sent in I only sustained 3 losses, which wasn’t bad going for such a powerful ship, especially when you consider how much harder Xenon ships are to take by comparison to every other ship in the game.

It did take a few attempts however the first couple of times I tried couldn’t get a clean deployment and my pods where failing to land at the same time, my guess is that the targeting of the pods was being fudge by the fact the ship is so big, but eventually they landed close enough together that they entered the ship at the same time.

Then of course the RNG was being a real pain and required several more reloads due to the fact that my people simply couldn’t clear deck 5 because they where sustaining to many losses on the other levels.

Then just too really annoy me I finally manage to capture the thing only to loose my Sirokos to a barrage of firestorm torpedoed, so I had to start over and wait on the boarding until the I had no more missiles, fortunately this didn’t take long since I was lingering in the glow of the ships engines, so the I was only to happy to try and shake me loose with missile fire, which of course didn’t work because I was using PBGs which instantly destroyed the missiles the second they left the launcher ha take that stupid Xenon.

Didn’t get to much in the way of equipment though only got the 5 2gj shields and 10 Gauss Cannons but to be honest by that point it had take so long to take that I really couldn’t be bothered. Having said that though I have loads capital guns that I’ve salvages from destroyed Qs in Xenon sector 347 and off of captured Terran ships, so equipping it isn’t an issue. I do need flak however as these are not something I have a lot of as they don’t drop from Qs as often and the factories are all empty. Think I'll have to have a go at capping some Griffons they normally carry several flak cannons and actually make reasonable automated patrol ships as there small size makes them less likely to be destroyed by crashing.

Over all though I don’t think I will bother trying to take any more Xenon ships with the exception of the I, Xenon capitals are just not good enough to justify the hassle, and the cost, not when I can get better ships like the Boreas else where and much more easily and not when I can capture ships with a better resale value in a fraction of the time and with significantly less rick of loosing my troops which take way to long to replace unless you get lucky and can acquire some that all ready start at 3 or 4 stars in everything.

While I appreciate the challenge ultimately I’m looking for ships that are actually useful and not simply trophies, granted the Xenon capitals are quicker and cheaper to build at the Player HQ then other ships but they are also weaker, so even if I could build them I probably wouldn’t bother.

I’d much rather stick to using the Boreas and Tyr both of which are killing machines that can easily best any other capital especially when flown by the player. The only real issue with the Tyr is it’s inadequate cargo bay which doesn’t give it much range when fully loaded with a full compliment of PSPs and Flak it would be nice to be able to carry a full compliment of MA/AMLs along with ammo and jump fuel but alas the cargo bay is to small and should really be upgraded to 10,000 tons like the Osaka but hay can’t have it all I guess, though it would be nice if it could carry more jump fuel because its annoying as hell trying to move the ship long distance when it can only hold about 400 E-cells when fully loaded with PSPs and SSCs not to mention the inability to use missiles since all available room is taken up by guns, shields and E-cells so I have mine relegated to guarding the gates leading to Xenon space to prevent there patrols from taking out my trade ships since Qs can no longer one shot capitals OOS in AP and they have proven to be very effective at that task and so far no Xenon ship with the exception of fighters have made it past my Tyrs and so far no patrol has been able to damage the ships shields more than 50% so all in all the Tyr has proven its self to be a very reliable guard dog.

The Tyr isn't so effective in sector though unless it's flown by the player due to the fact that PSPs are so slow so in sector the Boreas is probably more effective under the computers control due to the higher rate of fire from PPCs if somewhat less well armoured due to the nurf

[Jimmy C]

Then just too really annoy me I finally manage to capture the thing only to loose my Sirokos to a barrage of firestorm torpedoed,

Next time, scan the ship so you don't get surprised like this again.
Also, just how close were you that you couldn't deal with a torpedo barrage? When I go after I's, they always try that on me. After the first few times, I provoke them with a few Hammers to make them fire off all their heavy missiles before I attempt boarding. But I'm rarely closer than 13km and headed away from it, that gives my MDM time to shoot them all down.

[Cursed Ghost]

Also, just how close were you that you couldn't deal with a torpedo barrage?

I was actually about 15km out, normally once I have my troops aboard I'll brake off and move outside my targets weapons range cut engines and wait for my team to do there thing.

Typically my target will remain focused on me and will ignore the Sirokos and even if it does try and target the Sirokos it usually doesn't matter because they wont reach weapons range in time not when my ship is 15 to 20 km away and even if they try missiles it usually doesn't matter because they wont be able to fire enough quick enough to breach the Sirokos shields before my team take the ship the I obliviously is a special case being the only m2 that can launch missile barrages.

Next time, scan the ship so you don't get surprised like this again.

actually I did I just wasn't expecting the I to target the Sirokos I was expecting it to remain focused on me because as I said normally my target will ignore the Sirokos and attack me instead since I'm closer and I'm the weaker target being in an m6.

To be honest though it's not really a surprise that something like that would happen being the first time I ever tried to tackle an I.

[UnknownObject]

How to board a Xenon capital ship with no losses of skilled marines.
Addition: you can use just 4 cannon fodder marines.
1.You are in a M7M with 4 noobs (Mechanics ~50), a Sirokos with 21 perfect warriors follows you. Stay in 15.0 km from the target. Lower the target's shields.
2. Launch 2 noobs through the Piracy menu.
3. Wait 7 seconds and launch the remaining noobs.
4. Wait until the first team says something like "Starting cutting hull" and launch all marines from your Sirokos.
5. Save before the fighting starts. Load this save if something is wrong.
Your result should be :
The first noobs die on deck 1, but the other noobs enter the deck shortly after that and continue fighting. They die on deck 2, but the elite marines, analogously, continue fighting and suffer no losses.
So if you want a big fleet of I/J/K/Qs, have it.

[Cursed Ghost]

I have to say as a general rule I don’t like big ships because there simply to slow and un-manoeuvrable but as capital ships go I’m quiet impressed with the Xenon I.

I’ve been doing some very hard XI missions in Grand Exchange ones that have been spawning at least 1 capital ship and a bunch of fighters and the I has performed admirably currently have it equipped with flak on the top and bottom and for the left right and front I have PPCs, GCs and ISRs and have laser auto switching on for the front left and right and off for the top and bottom and for the back I have it set to attack fighters and I set its fire rate to 100% and give it a bunch of poltergeist missiles and this combo has proven to be most effective IS.

the poltergeist missile spam is actually more effective than I though it was going to be flails, ghouls, hammers or tomahawk would be better since they all require targets after the primary is destroyed preventing ordinance from being wasted they are all more powerful, and they all have more range but poltergeist missiles work just as well and there cheaper, smaller and more plentiful though you do go through the ammo pretty quickly though since there not as powerful, I’ll have to give Tempests a go as well see how they work for exterminating fighters, failing that I can always go with typhoons but they are slow to produce and there quiet slow moving as well plus they cant require targets so aren’t really the best for fighter defence.

Even getting barraged by tomahawks didn’t seem to faze the ship to much some got through but not enough to cause serious issues which is why I decide on ISRs for the sides and front give it a better chance to shoot incoming missiles and to knock out any fighters the flak cant reach.

[Jimmy C]

How to board a Xenon capital ship with no losses of skilled marines.
Addition: you can use just 4 cannon fodder marines.

Having tried this twice, I can say, the timing on this is incredibly tight. There's is a brief few seconds' window after the first team all die but the second is allowed to carry on to the next deck. If the second enters too soon, it gets wiped out along with the first team. If the second team is too late, it starts back at Deck 1.
I succeeded beautifully on my first try, a Q. But, when I went after a J next, it seemed nearly impossible to get the timing right twice in a row. Took over an hour of retries to get it right.

Two warnings. First, save when all 25 marines are on the hull but before the first team begins fighting. Later saves are useless.
Second, even if you succeed in using this method to get 21 maxed marines to skip to Deck 3, losses are still possible, just not so often, and reloading should cancel them out more often.

But between spending an hour of retries or losing three maxed marines, I'd rather figure out how to make this work better.

[pref]

Better just let some die. I mean if you're at the stage of Xenon boarding replacing a few marines won't cripple you financially or otherwise.

[Jimmy C]

It doesn't cripple me financially, but if I'm going to sacrifice marines, better those I didn't spend any money on in the first place.

[pref]

Rather ingame money then rl time. Especially if that time is spent reloading.
Unless you are saving boron marines' lives.. they must be hilarious in close combat.

[Jimmy C]

Using my usual method, I would still be reloading to reduce casualties. Four is about the most losses I'd accept.
I'll have to see how this works out with maxed marines.

[Annette Barret]

Rather ingame money then rl time. Especially if that time is spent reloading.
Unless you are saving boron marines' lives.. they must be hilarious in close combat.

Boron Marine; "Please friend stop moving about so I can kill you swiftly, one des not wish to inflict unnecessary suffering."

[zazie]

Wait. Really ?
"I’ve been doing some very hard XI missions in Grand Exchange ones that have been spawning at least 1 capital ship and a bunch of fighters and the I has performed admirably currently have it equipped with flak on the top and bottom and for the left right and front I have PPCs, GCs and ISRs and have laser auto switching on for the front left and right and off for the top and bottom and for the back I have it set to attack fighters and I set its fire rate to 100% and give it a bunch of poltergeist missiles and this combo has proven to be most effective IS. "

If I understand Cursed Ghost correctly (not that simple without interpunction ) he is saying that an I can be equipped with FLAKs and other Race-Equipment. Is that true ?
I have never ever started playing AP, but in X3TC or XTC you can only equip Xenon-Ships with Xenon-Weaponry (lasers and missiles), the same for Kha'ak. Has this been altered in AP ?

Edit: I was wrong. Xenon ships o not have special weaponry in X3TC