[MOD TC/AP] Combat Mod 4 - v4.16 17/06/13 - AP 3.0 Compatibility

[builder680]

...

I'm using SRM 1.05

They are most definitely PBC's (big green beams) on the K... and IC's (big blue beams) on the C. I scanned them (you can see in the videos).

Incidentally, the description for the Ion Cannon (which you can read in the video) calls it a projectile, but it isn't. It's a beam.

CMOD changed IonC to a beam weapon but kept the the Vanilla description.

Looking at FBC, IonC, and PBC definitions they all have one thing in common... relatively long bullet life of 3.5s or longer. In my vanilla balanced AWRM mod all new beam weapons have bullet life of less than 2s, and I do not believe that I have witnessed the chugging you have seen when they fire. I am not saying that long beam bullet life is necessarily the cause of the chugging but it might be worth investigating (i.e. edit TBullets to reduce bullet life and increase bullet speed to compensate).

Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a shot!

I assume whatever factor I reduce the life by is the same factor I should increase the speed by (in order to keep the overall amount of damage the same)?

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

... I am not saying that long beam bullet life is necessarily the cause of the chugging but it might be worth investigating (i.e. edit TBullets to reduce bullet life and increase bullet speed to compensate).

Thanks for the advice, I'll give it a shot!

I assume whatever factor I reduce the life by is the same factor I should increase the speed by (in order to keep the overall amount of damage the same)?

Correct, so if the bullet life is say 4s and bullet speed is 1000m/s you would change them to 1s and 4000m/s for instance.

[builder680]

Going to try to change them all to 1s lifetimes. Hopefully I did the math right, it's been a long time since ratios in middle school!

Here are the changes I made. I'll report the results when I get it figured out how to actually load it in game... I'm sure it'll probably throw off the sounds.

Ion Cannon = ID# 22
CMOD Lifetime = 3.6 seconds
CMOD Speed = 1500 m/s

New Lifetime = 1 second
New Speed = 5400 m/s

PBC = ID# 26
CMOD Lifetime = 3 seconds
CMOD Speed = 2300 m/s

New Lifetime = 1 second
New Speed = 6900 m/s

FBC = ID# 28
CMOD Lifetime = 5.5 seconds
CMOD Speed = 1100 m/s

New Lifetime = 1 second
New Speed = 6050 m/s

Not sure how to repack the files, I know I don't have to but I'd like to. When I select "New Catalog --> Add files" from the Cat Manager plugin of X3 Editor, how do I tell it to put all folders in the catalog? If I highlight them all and hit "Open," it just opens the top folder. And the only other option is "Cancel."

[paulwheeler]

If you shorten their lifetimes you will make the big beams far too deadly against smaller ships. Beams deliver their damage across the duration of the beam so the shorter the duration, the faster they deliver damage. With a longer duration it gives smaller ships time to get out of the beam, making them only effective against capital ships.

If you give the PBC a 1 second duration it will probably be able to "one-shot" m3s. IMO this is not balanced. Don't forget this is the weapon found on laser towers...

I dont believe its the duration that makes beams fps killers. Alpha Kyons have a similar fps hit and they have a very short duration, albeit a high fire rate. You will get better frames with a short duration and low fire rate, but then they can only be used as antifighter weapons. Give them enough damage to take out capitals and they will be able to swat fighters far too easily.

Beams are simply bugged and that is probably why Egosoft did not include them in vanilla on a large scale. It may be their use of the "damage over time" feature that causes the hit as this is bugged in vanilla too.

I have done all I can to reduce their fps hit, such as removing impact effects. In the SRM I made it so that only a few ships can mount the beams for this very reason.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Not sure how to repack the files, I know I don't have to but I'd like to. When I select "New Catalog --> Add files" from the Cat Manager plugin of X3 Editor, how do I tell it to put all folders in the catalog? If I highlight them all and hit "Open," it just opens the top folder. And the only other option is "Cancel."

Follow the following steps:-

1. Plugins --> Cat Manager
2. Click the little down arrow next to the Open toolbar button and select New... from the menu
3. Pick a name for your CAT/DAT pair (e.g. MyMOD)

The Add Files toolbar button should now be available. Remember that the CAT/DAT file structure needs to reflect the game directory structure (the right click menu will allow you to create directories with-in the CAT).

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

If you shorten their lifetimes you will make the big beams far too deadly against smaller ships. Beams deliver their damage across the duration of the beam so the shorter the duration, the faster they deliver damage. With a longer duration it gives smaller ships time to get out of the beam, making them only effective against capital ships.

If what you say is correct then the actual damage per second for beam weapons would be calculated as follows:-

Code: Select all

<Damage Per Second> = (<Damage Per Bullet>/<Bullet Life>)*<Bullets Per Second>

rather than the nominal

Code: Select all

<Damage Per Second> = <Damage Per Bullet>*<Bullets Per Second>

if what you say is correct then Egosoft have got the values wrong in the in-game encyclopedia (not unprecedented since it is the case with energy consumption and ammo based weapons).

The simple answer with balancing beam weapons is to make their insta-hit nature extremely energy hungry compared with bullet based weapons and to make the tracking of the turrets slow so that they take a longer time to acquire targets and thus make them less effective for tackling fighters. If you use MARS then turret tracking rates as balancing factor may be a moot point.

WRT the balance of the PBC and making it anti-capital only is that I believe that LTs are supposed to be anti-fighter.

[paulwheeler]

The simple answer with balancing beam weapons is to make their insta-hit nature extremely energy hungry compared with bullet based weapons and to make the tracking of the turrets slow so that they take a longer time to acquire targets and thus make them less effective for tackling fighters. If you use MARS then turret tracking rates as balancing factor may be a moot point.

That is exactly what I have done. However, even with slow tracking, as fighters tend to fly straight unless they come under fire, if the beam duration is too short then they get destroyed before the evade scripts kick in.

WRT the balance of the PBC and making it anti-capital only is that I believe that LTs are supposed to be anti-fighter.

At the moment it is somewhere in-between - similar to how it is in vanilla.

The FBC is the full-on anti-capital beam. The TBC and PBC are jack of all trades with TBC swaying towards fighters and PBC swaying towards capitals. The PALC is anti-fighter only.




I have spent a lot of time getting the beams to be useful, balanced and varied and I've had this beam discussion so many times before.

The simple fact is that the beams in X3TC are not, and never will be, as good as they should have been.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I have spent a lot of time getting the beams to be useful, balanced and varied and I've had this beam discussion so many times before.

The simple fact is that the beams in X3TC are not, and never will be, as good as they should have been.

No-one is disputing the effort you have put in, but the simple matter is that many perceive beam weapons as simple insta-hit weapons usable on all kinds of targets.

Regardless of this, the current discussion is hinging on improving game performance when beam weapons are firing (not on the balance of beam weapons per se). How this is achieved is almost irrelevant at the end of the day providing the resulting balance and game performance is acceptable to the target audience.

EDIT: My interest in this is almost purely from the aspect of whether or not the encyclopedia's damage per second calculations are accurate.

[builder680]

@ Roger:

I followed your instructions and wind up in the same place. I have no option to "Add" folders (after hitting the "Add files" toolbar button) only "Open." Which just opens the folder, not adding to the cat. Maybe I'm just not understanding... also right clicking a folder just brings up a generic Windows context menu... such as you get when you right click on any icon on the desktop. Perhaps I need a video tutorial... heh.
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EDIT:
Ok, I think I'm figuring it out. I can't "Add" a folder, I have to make a folder inside the cat, then I can "Add" the files from inside the other folder by selecting them (individually or all at once, limited to one folder's contents at a time). I could always do this, but I wanted to grab all folders (and their files/subfolders) at once, not just one folder's worth of files at once.

I see that I right click inside the X3 Editor, not the file selection menu, to make a folder. Apparently I have to recreate the entire directory structure by hand? I'd think I could just pick a folder and it would compress that folder and all subfolders automatically, keeping the file structure. Guess not...

Now the problem is I can't find out how to make the subdirectories inside X3 Editor, right clicking doesn't do anything inside the Cat manager if I've already gone into a folder...
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EDIT 2:
AHA!

You can click and drag... or <Shift> / <Ctrl> - Select to Copy / Paste... from another window into the Cat manager window! This also means I don't have to make directories or subdirectories, it preserves them all. Awesome, got it now.

Useful info for the future, I think I'm a modder now! Not really though!
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END EDITS
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@ Paul:

I'm not meaning to dredge up old discussions. As I said in my first post on this issue in this thread, if there's nothing to be done, I'll just deal with it. They're still awesome weapons and I certainly don't want to edit things and reverse all the work you've done balancing. From the sounds of it, even if I made these changes, it wouldn't do me much good FPS wise, so I'll leave it alone and just be happy with what I have regarding beams.

Thanks for the help and advice from both of you!

[mr.WHO]

Is it possible to make Khaak Gamma Kyons somehow less effective against fighters without making it weaker against capships? Right now (especially in Cadius X-tra Khaak pack) attacking Khaak Capitals in fighter or M6 is death sentence.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Is it possible to make Khaak Gamma Kyons somehow less effective against fighters without making it weaker against capships? Right now (especially in Cadius X-tra Khaak pack) attacking Khaak Capitals in fighter or M6 is death sentence.

Are not the Kha'ak supposed to be the big bad boogy man?

Going back to the implications of how paul believes beams to work (see this and surrounding posts for details). Let us say you want to make a beam less effective against fighters, you can increase the beam duration but if what paul says is correct then it will also reduce the overall damage per second possibly making them less effective against capitals overall.

[paulwheeler]

Is it possible to make Khaak Gamma Kyons somehow less effective against fighters without making it weaker against capships? Right now (especially in Cadius X-tra Khaak pack) attacking Khaak Capitals in fighter or M6 is death sentence.

The only way is to make the beam duration longer so fighters have time to evade the beam before the full damage is dealt. Ill have a look at what the duration is at the moment and see if I can extend it a little. I can also reduce its hitbox.

[Nafensoriel]

The problem with long beam durations is that it looks god awful and ridiculous.

Though personally from a lore standpoint.. shouldn't the Khaak be a bit scary for an M6 and below? Beam weapons are expensive experimental technology for all of the commonwealth races and the khaak use them exclusively.. so shouldn't their step up in tech make them pant staining monstrosities that you rarely get away "cleanly" from?

Oh and the flipside has issues too.. Beams with ridiculously fast fire rates and low lifetimes sometimes do no damage at all. Still trying to figure out exactly how that works.

[paulwheeler]

Is it possible to make Khaak Gamma Kyons somehow less effective against fighters without making it weaker against capships? Right now (especially in Cadius X-tra Khaak pack) attacking Khaak Capitals in fighter or M6 is death sentence.

Are not the Kha'ak supposed to be the big bad boogy man?

Going back to the implications of how paul believes beams to work (see this and surrounding posts for details). Let us say you want to make a beam less effective against fighters, you can increase the beam duration but if what paul says is correct then it will also reduce the overall damage per second possibly making them less effective against capitals overall.

The overall damage remains the same no matter the duration. Its just spread out over the entire duration of the beam.

So as long as the ship remains in the beam, the total damage done will remain the same no matter the duration. Since capitals are so big they will usually stay in the beam with long durations, whereas fighters/corvettes do not.

There's a balance to get between overall damage and duration. Make it too long and the heavy beams will not be effective even against capitals, make it too short and they will obliterate any small ships with one hit.

However, this also has implications for the AI. The AI tends to turn alot when in a battle and the beam will spin as the firing ship turns making it less effective, and look silly. This makes beams more effective in the player's hands as the player can simply stop turning when the beam fires.

In an ideal world I'd like beams to have the same feel as those in Freespace 2 - the only game that has implimented beams well in my opinion. But x3 will never be able to do this effectively.

At the moment Gamma Kyons have a relatively short duration so I can probably increase it a little with no ill effects.

The other important point is that Cadius' new Khaak capitals have a lot of gun mounts - far more than the vanilla capitals. This means more beams, less fps and more death.

the vanilla Destroyer only has three guns per turret and there was probably a very good reason for this - frame rates. The Gamma Kyon is balanced to the vanilla number of guns, hence they are very powerful.

[mr.WHO]

The other important point is that Cadius' new Khaak capitals have a lot of gun mounts - far more than the vanilla capitals. This means more beams, less fps and more death.

the vanilla Destroyer only has three guns per turret and there was probably a very good reason for this - frame rates. The Gamma Kyon is balanced to the vanilla number of guns, hence they are very powerful.

IMO this will require two CMOD versions with diffrent Khaak Kyons, coz kyons ballanced to canilla khaak ships will be too powerful for Cadius, while Cadius ballanced beams will be too weak for vanilla khaak configuration

[paulwheeler]

The other important point is that Cadius' new Khaak capitals have a lot of gun mounts - far more than the vanilla capitals. This means more beams, less fps and more death.

the vanilla Destroyer only has three guns per turret and there was probably a very good reason for this - frame rates. The Gamma Kyon is balanced to the vanilla number of guns, hence they are very powerful.

IMO this will require two CMOD versions with diffrent Khaak Kyons, coz kyons ballanced to canilla khaak ships will be too powerful for Cadius, while Cadius ballanced beams will be too weak for vanilla khaak configuration

Or Cadius could reduce the total number of gun mounts on his turrets.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Going back to the implications of how paul believes beams to work (see this and surrounding posts for details). Let us say you want to make a beam less effective against fighters, you can increase the beam duration but if what paul says is correct then it will also reduce the overall damage per second possibly making them less effective against capitals overall.

The overall damage remains the same no matter the duration. Its just spread out over the entire duration of the beam.

So as long as the ship remains in the beam, the total damage done will remain the same no matter the duration. Since capitals are so big they will usually stay in the beam with long durations, whereas fighters/corvettes do not.

There's a balance to get between overall damage and duration. Make it too long and the heavy beams will not be effective even against capitals, make it too short and they will obliterate any small ships with one hit.

As this discussion may get rather involved and has wider implications than just CMOD, I have created this thread for the continuance.

[Cadius]

Or Cadius could reduce the total number of gun mounts on his turrets.

I suppose that's fair, half the current amount would bring it closer to vanilla numbers. Easier for you gauge balance I think

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Or Cadius could reduce the total number of gun mounts on his turrets.

I suppose that's fair, half the current amount would bring it closer to vanilla numbers. Easier for you gauge balance I think

The vanilla Zombie pineapples (aka Kha'ak Capitals) have pretty much stayed the same ever since X2 where as the other ships have moved on. I recon that the new M2 Asura turret numbers are probably about right for a next gen destroyer (perhaps an M2+). But as pointed out in an earlier post the new M7 Rhakshasa throws the old balance rather off-beam (no pun intended).

[Cadius]

maybe, but paul has to balance CMOD's Kyon to also work with vanilla ship balance. Vanilla Khaak carrier has 1 laser per turret, so to make balance I'm sure paul would have to make a very powerful laser, and that would make the Asura very overpowered.

Vanilla Khaak M2 has 3 lasers on it's left/right turret.
Current release Asura has 8. I think dropping it to 4 would be just nice..