[TC] M7 class

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Sat, 29. Nov 08, 13:39

I don't think it has the laser generator to keep them firing for long. Gauss Cannons, being ammo-based, don't have that problem.

Sam L.R. Griffiths · Post by **Sam L.R. Griffiths** » Sat, 29. Nov 08, 14:44

pjknibbs wrote:I don't think it has the laser generator to keep them firing for long. Gauss Cannons, being ammo-based, don't have that problem.

Good point... PSPs though have a much lower cost per second than IBLs/IPCs/PPCs... Hence they may work ... but 6 of them and your shields means no room for E-Cells... Gause cannon sounds much more preferable... and looks like it would be better for hitting smaller ships too... gotta love the refire rate.

Esgaro · Post by **Esgaro** » Sat, 29. Nov 08, 15:20

Evil_Dude wrote: Oh, and is MARS really that good? Playing with anything other than vanilla seems like cheating to me, so I've been avoiding any scripts. Even if the AI is pants-on-head stupid...

MARS's turret control is extremely good. Having it indeed makes larger ships with a lot of turrets considerably more powerful for two reasons. Firstly, it is much better at prioritizing targets than the default turret scripts. Missiles hardly ever get through on a ship with good turret placement. Secondly, if you have multiple weapons in your cargo which are compatable with that turret, it will switch them in and out mid-battle depending on the circumstances. For those far-off fighters, you can watch it use ISRs as they approach, and switch to FAAs once they get in range, and switch to PSGs if anything actually gets that close. If you are flying an M2 and fighting another cap-ship, you can watch it use IonCs or PPCs to wear down the shields, and then immediately switch in the gauss cannons when the shields are down.

That said, you can also enable it for enemy cap-ships, if you so chose. Really, it is a single player game, so you should play it however you find enjoyable.

This being an M7 thread, I mentioned it because if you use it, which many people do, it effects what sort of extra weapons you want to keep in your cargo hold for your turrets to use to switch.

Really, I think that one of the defining characteristics of the M7 class ships is that they are the smallest ship (outside of oddities like the truelight seeker) which can mount flak. Because of this, I feel that their main guns should really be used for anti-M6 and larger duty. Get the biggest, baddest weapons you can, and use them. I like 8x PSGs on my Deimos. Get in close and melt them. I like 8x IBLs on my Tiger. Charge them up and let loose. I like the idea of PPCs on a Thresher, though I find in practice it doesn't have enough laser energy. The Shrike looks like it will be an evil little ship with main mounted IBLs and side turret mounted gauss cannons, once it is fixed.

I do feel that M7s which can't mount any heavy weapons on their main battery are a bit lacking though. The Cerberus is lightly armored, on the slower side, and can't mount any frontal weapons with real punch. For all of that, it isn't even cheap! The Carrack is another really crummy M7, though most players wouldn't really consider flying one if they capped it.

RedLeader · Post by **RedLeader** » Sat, 29. Nov 08, 18:24

Yeah, the more ships you get to know, the more critical you become.
For a corvette buster, Terran Cutlass is good enough, and much smaller target.

ephemeron · Post by **ephemeron** » Sat, 29. Nov 08, 20:09

The one M7 I've used so far is the Deimos. The loadout I'm using is ISR's in the front, IBL's in the side turrets, flakup and down, CIG's in the back turret. It's very effective against anything its size and smaller, and I've killed two J's with it. K's are a big problem for it, though.

I started out with a mix of ISR's and CIG's, but replaced the CIG's because it made it harder to finish off L's -- when I hit with enough shots to hurt but not kill one, the CIG's knocked it off course and made it harder to hit. The main drawback to the loadout I'm using now is that the IBL's and flaks take a lot of energy.

LTerSlash · Post by **LTerSlash** » Sun, 30. Nov 08, 07:28

Man, selecting an M7 is HARD!

Anyway, in my opinion:

If you cant get IBLs -> Thesher

If you can get IBLs and dont cares about hangar -> Tiger

If you can get IBLs and cares about hangar -> Panther

Since my main "fighter" is the Springblossom, i will go witch the Tiger.

Tiger or Panther, the sides turrets i prefer to use them as missile defence... not IBLs...

Just take a look at the Phased Array Laser cannon, is a beam witch PPC range! and low energy drain, and low dmg too. We can get two of them from the Khaak sector where the exterminator was killed. No idea if we can get another pair...

I will go with the Tiger and i will most likely buy a Condor to be my mobile HQ. (if i ever need such a thing).

Painman · Post by **Painman** » Sun, 30. Nov 08, 08:40

Selecting an M7 isn't hard

Like you said, there are Tigers, Panthers and for those bereft of IBLs, there are Threshers.

I just bought my Panther in this current game. IBL front, FLAK up/down/back, kinda flipping between Energy Bolts and Ion Shards for left/right on Missile Defense. SOS plus Scrambler on board... I've amassed a small pile of junker Xenon Ls that I might rehabilitate into a disposable fighter wing just for the heck of it.

I don't really want much else in the M7 line besides Panther/Tiger, because the rest can't even try to outpace a Q.

I'm going to buy a Tiger as well... Panther is ideal for my Xenon sector raids, but I want control of the front guns while doing a patrol so that I don't inadvertently shoot the place up. Plus, charged up IBLs are, well... the bomb

Between those 2 ships, you hardly need an M1 or M2... at least not to fly around yourself.

LTerSlash · Post by **LTerSlash** » Sun, 30. Nov 08, 08:56

Try Phased Array laser cannons for left/right... but i only know where to find two of them, enoght for having on in each turret... anyway, taking down missiles at 6km in a weapons that hardly misses the target... well...

The only bad thing im having a bad FPS drop when their are firing... not a issue in a Tiger because i always use internal view, but in a Panther is better to use the external sometimes and there they are a problem...

pollock2 · Post by **pollock2** » Sun, 7. Dec 08, 23:57

Where do get incendiary bomb launchers for a tiger? Id like to make its front a capital ship eater. thanks

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Mon, 8. Dec 08, 08:43

There are IBL forges in Loomanckstrat's Legacy and Weaver's Tempest--however, the former one is often destroyed by the Boron military, and the latter is owned by the Yaki so you have to get into their good books before you can dock there.

Nospatris · Post by **Nospatris** » Tue, 9. Dec 08, 08:07

Hi Guys

I started the USC and have found the Terrain ships to be excellant for speed and shields.

I am now using the M7 Yokohama with 8 x M/AML front, 2 x SSC top and bottom, 4 EMP rear. This allows me to take on anything from M7 down in protection, kill, or patrol missions. The combination of shield and firepower make it very hard to stop.

When Capital ships are spawned, I clear away the m6 & fighters with the M7, then use a Hades with Tomahwaks to finish the Capital ships from range. It's much cheaper than a M2 to fit out and operate.

The Yokohama is a great M7, I am conifident in its ability and commonly will run several patrol missions between saves, even without the optimum weapons load.

I suppose I should think about production or UT's, but I am having fun in my Yokohama. The nice thing about being able to do alot of patrol missions, everyone really like you.

RedLeader · Post by **RedLeader** » Tue, 9. Dec 08, 18:23

I've been considering Yokohama, but where did you get all those M/AMs? Otherwise without more serious weapons it would make just an extreme short range brawler

but not so much a real frigate.

Nospatris · Post by **Nospatris** » Wed, 10. Dec 08, 03:26

The Weapons forges in Terrain space suffer from shortages of MRE. If you operate a number of freighters that collect it from Logistic support centres and keep the forges topped up then they will be in constant production.

I also have a frieghter touring the Patrol and Defence bases collecting weapons and shields. It possble to bring it together so that a new ship can be fully equipted at the start. I also have the advanced Discovery doing "jumpdrive" runs from Queens habour.

The baldric is a very good frieghter that I am also using for UT's. Fast and good shields, with good load.

The M/AML has 3.6 km range and is deadly under 1 km, Almost no drain on weapons generater. The SSC are leathal but high drain. In my game the SSC Forge got "lost" so I only have 2 units. With these in your turrets no one is safe under 2 km. The EMP are still a good utility weapon with 2km range.

My last patrol mission was a "Average" with Yaki M6's, M3, M4. M5 being spawned. At several points the Yokohama had to take on 6 x Yaki Centeurs on its own. The ability to be able to charge in and kill the first one before before ranges got under 1 km, then stirip the shields of the next one before "Ramming" it, then turning quickly to track the next one who was at 800m and kill it meant I only lost 50% Shields to kill 6 Centuers and make 6 mil. Total mission was worth 25 mil

My Yokohama has made me 150 mil so far and still ticking. The M/AML are the key, very powerful and no drain on the generator. My Osaka is looking at M/AML in turrets that don't have PSP's so that the generator is focused on PSP weapons.

It not a great Capping ship but it is a good money earner in patrol and kill missions, and it looks Cool.

The only things that I have to be careful of are Karrk Destoryers, and packs of Karrk Corvettes. Thier weapons don't miss you only have a limited time before your shields fail.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Fri, 26. Dec 08, 21:52

LTerSlash wrote:Man, selecting an M7 is HARD!
Anyway, in my opinion:
If you cant get IBLs -> Thesher
If you can get IBLs and dont cares about hangar -> Tiger
If you can get IBLs and cares about hangar -> Panther

Aww man. I just can't decide, either. =)

I have been nursing the IBL forge in Loomanck's right from the start (as well as my pirate rep) so I really have too many choices.

For me only the Thresher is out. AI ships may not hit the broad side of a barn but a Thresher is bigger than four barns and forget about finding a parking space when you go shopping in the city.

Frontal firepower (shield damage / sec)
554 k Tiger (100%)
539 k Shrike (97%)
372 k Thresher (67%)
369 k Panther (66%)
369 or 289 k Agamemmnon (not counting PSG) (66%)

(Terran M7 not shown for reasons of courtesy. They use M6 (!) class weapons so they only do 1/4 of the damage of a real M7)

Shrike / Tiger have a serious advantage there. (Before you say it ain't so, try it!)
The Thresher has more range but subpar firepower.

Considering that no M7 can just stand there and duke it out with an M2, that "burst" firepower is an issue. Hit and run, trying to evade the much heavier return fire. =)

Now the Shrike is a funky design!
On paper it's laser generator sucks but if you figure in Gauss, you get 175 (shield) damage per point of laser energy while the Tiger only gets 97.
Since the generator is half that of the Tiger, that's practically equal!
While you maneuver/evade, the side turret keeps firing. During that time Gauss alone has 332 and the Shrike pulls ahead. The Tiger OTOH recharges faster on the whole during that break...
If you cut back on the IBL and let the Gauss guns do most of the work, the Shrike sustained firepower beats every other M7 in the game.
Gauss projectiles are also 13 % faster than IBL which is very nice vs the smaller M6/M7 targets so Shrike vs Tiger firepower does not have a clear winner. The differences are too situational to compare well.

One thing is clear, though: For being a (bit) carrier, the Shrike firepower is outright amazing.
Don't underestimate the ugly duckling.

Panther vs Tiger is a classic situation. Carrier has 2/3 the frontal firepower of the battleship.
If you can be bothered to do the micromanagement required for 20-30 fighters, the Panther wins hands down although for a carrier it has terribly little cargo space.
That means constant supplying/refueling for both Panther and all it's fighters. Worse than with a real M1. Not my idea of a good time.

But... the Panther has no cockpit guns which allows for far greater freedom of maneuvering. (Provided you trust your turret script =)
To me that's a serious advantage.

Another easy to overlook issue is sustained damage.
Yes, the Q has an amazing damage potential but once it runs out of steam it can only keep firing 2 heavy guns.

While Terran M7 can fire their MAM for a long time, they only do 1/4 the damage of a real cap ship weapon like Gauss or IBL. So they're in the nonswimmer pool and even worse off than the Q.
The Shrike has the highest sustained damage of all M7 through it's Gauss guns.
It can fire 4 Gauss + 1 IBL all day long while all other M7 can support < 4 heavy guns (indefinitely).
The Thresher can only support 3 and the Q 2.

With a Shrike, you hit reverse when a K is approaching at maybe 6.5 km.
While your Gauss guns chew it up you occasionally fire IBL (or whatever else you have) to burn excess laser energy.
A K or J dies in 1 "pass". A Tiger/Panther might get close but no other M7 can do that.

The Shrike is the destroyer killer among the M7. (+ carrier bonus!)
Thresher has very good laser range but that's it.
The Tiger is a very well balanced fighter. Can't really go wrong with that one.

As a personal ship, I'm almost leaning towards the Shrike. That cargo hold, y'know...
So damn convenient!
Almost twice the size of Tiger/Panther even though a few hundred units would be Gauss ammo.
(1 crate of Gauss ammo = 5.7 GJ of damage or roughly 1 capital ship =)

If the Shrike just wasn't so bloody slow!
8 fighter hangars are plenty for your personal ships, often offsetting the glacial speed and it has the cargo bay to keep a few fighters supplied without major hassles.
If there's a mission symbol on a station on the other side of the sector - jump into your Kestrel and fly!
It has both the fighter hangars + cargo space (for MARS drones =) to extend it's control range far beyond what the low speed may suggest.

Hmm. Maybe I'll just give the Shrike a speed of 107 like the other mid-range M7. 10m/s aren't a real difference but "above 100" looks better. =)
That's 2 or 3 engine tunings...
The official "Pandora" tunings in Reunion were 10 each. (I always thought that was way too many =)

Hmm. Or a Tiger. Or a Panther. AAARGH!

Cruis.In · Post by **Cruis.In** » Sat, 27. Dec 08, 18:24

no one use the minatoar from argon?

RedLeader · Post by **RedLeader** » Sat, 27. Dec 08, 18:36

Minotaur is a M7M, and missile only if memory serves well. I would rather not use it as a main capital ship of a taskforce, but to each his own, and it might do well as a support.

Fine post, Gazz, I kinda like your maths and analysis approach.

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Sat, 27. Dec 08, 19:33

I decided to get a Shrike and overtuned it to 115 m/s.

Three measly engine tunings. I figured, I fixed the damn thing so I just tuned it a little while it was in the dry dock. =)

Coruskane · Post by **Coruskane** » Wed, 31. Dec 08, 18:57

Gazz wrote:I decided to get a Shrike and overtuned it to 115 m/s.

Three measly engine tunings. I figured, I fixed the damn thing so I just tuned it a little while it was in the dry dock. =)

hehe indeed you did. *pats Gazz on the back*.

By the way, how did you figure the tiger being so much more than the Panther? Tiger has 2 more forward facing, but looking at your table with the thresher low down, it seems you are factoring in maximum extended rate of fire...Panther and tiger have same laser gen, therefore same extended fire capacities.

maphys · Post by **maphys** » Wed, 31. Dec 08, 19:14

I'd vote Panther over Tiger because IBLs are charge up. I hate hammering fire to shoot! Plus the forward turret is more agile and even 6IBLs waste your generator fast. It also has more weapons in some turrets IIRC, better fire coverage. I flew the Tiger first but kept ramming things because I stayed on target too long. With the turret firing for me it gave my sluggish steering more time to react.

I've got both and fly one with the other on anti-fighter detail. Although having said that I do sometime miss pressing the big red button myself when flying the Panther...

M

Gazz · Post by **Gazz** » Wed, 31. Dec 08, 21:09

Coruskane wrote:By the way, how did you figure the tiger being so much more than the Panther? Tiger has 2 more forward facing, but looking at your table with the thresher low down, it seems you are factoring in maximum extended rate of fire...Panther and tiger have same laser gen, therefore same extended fire capacities.

Sustained fire is one catagory but that alone won't win the Miss M7 contest.
Which ship is best depends on how you want to fight. =)

While the Panther has a lot of and bigger defensive / short range batteries, it's not always helpful having more than 2 Flak in one turret.
2 annihilate an M5 in one blast and any more would waste energy.
Just let them fire once more and annihilate the near dead ship.

In a head on attack against another heavy ship the Tiger does 50 % more burst damage than the Panther so yes, it is a better offensive fighter.
The Panther has more short range turret sections so it defends a lot better - as a carrier should.
Perfectly balanced and not the same ship as one might think after glancing at the "main" stats.

That the Panther can charge the main IBL is of questionable value.
It may have rare tactical uses but mostly it's eye candy.

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[TC] M7 class