Game Freeze W/ Sound Loop

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 07:36

I understand there are some other threads that touch on this topic but I thought this particular topic deserves perhaps many? I felt the issue is being confused by perhaps various superstitions and could use a "fresh" perspective. You judge.

I installed "fresh" Windows XP, SP 2, latest and greatest mobo, video card, sound card, and directx 9.0c. No mods, scripts, or non-Egosoft content added. No anti-virus or additional processes (outside of win xp services).

The game ran like a top under version ~ 1.2 (whichever came before 1.3). I love strategy and especially realtime strategy, but watching your credits accumulate so you can move the game, technology, and the ability to see other tech and features of the game is like watching grass grow. Not a putdown for X3, I always like to just dive in the first time just to see eye candy, tech, and gameplay. So, I made extensive use of SETA. I left the game running for approx. 24 hours and I had about 4 factories, some 12 transports, and explored only locally (say 4 jumps or less from Argon Prime). I came back, started some sector traders and bought another 6 factories. Probably had about 50+ ships at this point. So, I left the game running another 5 hours. Converted sector traders over to universal and left it in the oven another 12 hours. Awesome!!! I now have about 50 million credits. I decide I must expand my knowledge of the known universe to capitalize on a higher probability of lucritive deals via universal traders. I buy a couple of Nove Vanguards are start bossing around the universe. Let bake another 10 hours or so until I have about 90 million. My rank is not good enough to buy the interesting stuff I want to so I decide to explore even more just to see what is out there. I discover another Argon Shipyard in the Light Heart. So, I start wanting to just mess around, buy a bunch of ships to go looking for a brawl and BAM!!!!! X3 jacks me with a looping freeze move! Just so happens, Egosoft has been hard at work so I pull out a 1.3 patch and fire back!!! BAM!!! X3 strikes back!!! Ok, so I use the MadBoris codec style, only my green codecs of mp3ness and all that are already the best in the known universe.

Suffice to say, my aspirations to conquer the universe with my fully operational deathstar are on hold

.

What I think can be said from reading related posts and my own experience:

1) This has nothing to do with the latest patch 1.3, if it was introduced, it was done prior to 1.3 and its immediate predecessor.

2) It doesnt matter what hardware, drivers, or codecs you have (although these could cause problems, it will not exempt you)

My Hardware:

CPU: AMD Athlon XP 2500+
MOBO: ASUS a7v400-mx
Memory: 1024 MB
Video: ATI Radeon 9800 ddr 256, then switched with GeForce 6200 ddr
256 after driver clean (also used latest and greatest drivers)
Sound: Sound Blaster Live 24-bit

Description of Crash: Game locks up w/ sound stutter or partial sound loop. Only exits with ctrl+alt+del (sometimes) or complete reboot. No error codes. Except for the one from the CTD when your loading a game, which is unrelated.

WHY THIS POST??? I would like to know what some of your gaming circumstances were and I will give some examples of what I am looking for. I feel this might be helpful to Egosoft. One, if your game runs fine and you havent ran it for more than 24 hours straight and total of more than 48 hours gameplay dont post that you found a solution. I am a serious gamer (as I am sure many X3 players are) and that is not gaming, that is farting around with X3. This crash is random, even my machine (now that the crash has surfaced) will sometimes go several hours before BAM!!!

My observation:

Under a new game, X3 will run fine for hours on end. Once your game progresses to a certain point, the crash will surface. Different actions you take may affect the universe differently, and hence the AI of ships you own ectetera. If Egosoft built in any randomized features into other AI or algorithms, then this could become more difficult to track down. For instance, say it is not the sector you are in, but one that a ship you own is, and it is triggering something. Next time you load, if you took different actions, the ship might make another choice (better deal etc.). Or, if there are randomized algorithms outside of the human element, who knows. I do know however that the crashes surfaced shortly after my universal traders and expansion of knowledge of the universe. Which tells me that it could very likely be the script for the UT, or it could be a sector it is now visiting as a result of my increased exploration. I am absolutely certain that if it were related to hardware or drivers it should have happened long before I reached ~ 100m credits.

How many game hours did you have before your crash?

Did you have universal traders?

Have you visited more than ~30 sectors?

Have you met all of the above criteria, played 48 hours plus, and not experienced this?

Future work:

1) I want to reinstal the game and see if that helps (perhaps it is corrupting itself somehow)

2) Blow away CPU and start over. This time, optimize windows by removing all unecessary services. (I know X3 can be temperamental about such things).

Marijn · Post by **Marijn** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 11:49

How many game hours did you have before your crash?
- it varies. Sometimes theres no crash, other times within 15 mins after starting from the latest save.

Did you have universal traders?
No

Have you visited more than ~30 sectors?
yes.

Have you met all of the above criteria, played 48 hours plus, and not experienced this?
No, i should mention though that i had 1 loop+sound issue just before upgrading ( 1.2.0.1 -> 1.3 )

my thoughts
I don't think the issue is driver or hardware related, i think it has to do with X3 itself. This because when it happens, windows doesn't crash and that's interresting. Ussually a crashing driver will affect windows stablity as well. It doesn't now and when it's possible to kill the X3 process with the task manager windows will keep running fine with other sounds as well.
This leads me to believe that it's the X3 god engine that is crashing. For some reason it stops refreshing video data and the sound stream is looping.

I've heard one other user mention something about "help popups" from X3 not showing until he tried another account. Could this issue have something to do with that. I've not seen any help popups yet... could it be it's crashing on that?

Could everyone have a look at the following registry items and see if their value is the same?
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\EGOSOFT\X3\Values\

In this folder there are items called GameTipMask, mine have the values:
GameTipMask01 - 1fea7a
GameTipMask04 - 77279700

The HKEU_CURRENT_USER is different for every account so maybe it's that this information is wrong and causing the issue under certain user accounts?

MadBoris · Post by **MadBoris** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 17:20

I never had the crash. Left game on for 24 hours, several times over 10 hours. Have covered entire universe, as I know it. I own several complexes, 150 mil in spendable cash. Used universal trader once, when he got blown up, said good riddens to universal traders. Still haven't finished the plot line.

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 19:13

Marijn, to be more exact. I was interested in the total amount of time you played a particular game in X3 before crash surfaced. This is opposed to how long you can play before it occurs now that it has surfaced.

I agree, I think that it is X3. I blew away the system again last night and meticulously installed all drivers and updates. Restored my saved games and let it run. This morning I could hear no sound and my monitor was blinking. So, i shook the mouse and saw screen saver go away, the sound loop came on, and frozen screen. So, ctrl+alt+del and shut it down in task manager. The appication is definately hanging.

I tried to reproduce the crash by setting screen saver to one minute but no success. When the application hangs, windows simply resumes its normal functions such as the screen saver and monitor hybernation after 20.

Well. Marijn NO UT = CRASH and MadBoris NO UT = NO CRASH. There goes that theory. Have you been able to notice any game event that is happening, about to happen, before crash? There was one user who mentioned that fight music seemed to be occuring or about to prior to crash. I have also noticed fighters in the vicinity for some crashes, and others after a battle. This might be another rabbits hole, but I have more faith in it than hardware and drivers.

By the way, Which game type are you two playing? I am playing the quick start or easy level. This might also help to explain some things. If we are playing different types (i.e. story line enabled, not enabled, or related difference in universe) then we might not rule out theories prematurely.

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 19:19

You know, just wanted to add. A lot of people claim they did not have crash before 1.3. Although I believe this is unrelated, it is possible that this can go into the column of "game has to progress to certain point prior to crash". This was definately my experience.

MikeMasino · Post by **MikeMasino** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 20:15

I didn't have any crashes before 1.3... but after updating I did. The crash you describe was a fault somewhere with the scripts I downloaded. I had some of LV and Cycrow's scripts installed, after deleting, the 'sound loop freeze' problem disappeared. Not compatible with 1.3 yet.

Domage · Post by **Domage** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 21:24

Did you have universal traders?
Yes.

Have you visited more than ~30 sectors?
Yes.

Have you met all of the above criteria, played 48 hours plus, and not experienced this?
Never experienced this with eariler versions of the game.

Important note: I've only booted the game up three times since installing the update, and the games froze all 3 times not long after ordering a TL of mine to jump to a sector, the third time was a jump and dock command at the argon shipyard and it made it to argon prime but then the game froze afew seconds later.

The problem is possibly with the AI piloting, or with Seta, which I was using at the time all 3 freezes occured.

Gimpex · Post by **Gimpex** » Mon, 26. Dec 05, 22:07

Well, I've decided to add in my two cents worth here. I play for an hour and a half, maybe 2 and a half hours max, and my game freezes with looping audio. I have explored around 30 sectors, own 1 comploex and several weapons factories, have a medium sized fleet and no universal trading (yet). I have never had this crash happen until I patched to 1.3 and...that's all I think I need here? If you need any other information, do let me know

-Gimp

Marijn · Post by **Marijn** » Tue, 27. Dec 05, 01:10

The total amount is a bit hard to count as i have continued from an old save and i don't recall at what point the crashes started happening.

My start point where i have crashes is "bankrupt assasin", never had any troubles in the story mode on normal.

The fight music .. perhaps. my first crash was when going after some pirates, and because i've adapted the style to fight paranid and split there are some fighting tunes now and then

. Thing is that tonight i have played all night attacking loads but without a single freeze. It's allmost as if there's a BBS message that rotates onto the board which is crashing my game...

I've seen a message that said "government$" instead of the proper gorvernment name ( like argon or teladi ) ... could that be it?

ps. Could you check your registery settings, are they the same?

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Tue, 27. Dec 05, 09:58

Ok, perhaps not as fast as many of us would like but we ARE getting somewhere.

These are logical errors, perhaps many of them having to do with scripts. We cannot rule out other logical errors in the code but I know that I have conclusively found the source of one cause for this type of crash.

When you guys talk about a similar problem, make sure you include other important information.

1) Which type of game are you playing in X3. (i.e. Quick Start, Bankrupt Assasin, etc.)

2) Begin to start unique threads for respective game types. (help to eliminate confusion)

3) Begin to isolate attributes your game (game progress, where are you in the storyline, etc. etc.) has in common with others that are having the same problem.

4) Work together by sharing information you learn while observing your crash. Ideally, if you can reproduce it - you have a good shot at narrowing it down to a vicinity for Egosoft.

Make sure the thread that you begin lets users know the importance of making sure they are posting to the right thread and talking about the right subject. Information about crashes for other game types (of course not mentioned) might get introduced, confuse others, and before you know it you will have a lot of superstition going on.

[FYI FOR EGOSOFT]

PARTICULARS OF MY CRASH:

First,

1) PC Meets requirements
2) Fresh install of OS, drivers, and updates
3) No community content added (scripts or whatever have you)
4) Playing Quick Start

I progressed to a point in the game where the crash became predictable. If I touched nothing, hit SETA (actually about six or seven times cuz ships buzzing close to me), about 10 seconds later FREEZE!

I had a theory that your scripts for UT were the cause of this crash. I accessed the property menu and issued command NONE for all of my universal traders. Sure enough, NO FREEZE. I reloaded the save game and repeated this time without any changes to make certain it was reproducible. It was. So, I began reloading and issuing command NONE for a different solitary UT one by one. Fortunately, it was the second one (God knows I have spent too much ... errr, well..). I then repeated the tests with the second one to make certain both the failure and the success were reproducible. They were. I observed the second ship. He was selling 125 mj shields. After he dropped his load off, he jumped to The Wall. I observed him as he entered (the pilot has a males name) Solar Plant Alpha. FREEZE! Ok, so this time I observe the stock of energy cells on hand at plant Alpha right before he enters. Plenty. So I check out his cargo. BINGO!

I have been bulleting through this game just to get to other areas (I like to walk through real quick before I play a serious game). I was not concerning myself with ALL of the fine details of micromanagement. As long as credits are rolling in, rank is going up, I am fine. Leave it on SETA until I get to where I want then check some more aspects of your wonderful game out. Well, thats where this all started. Anyhow, when traders would get that "not enough energy to deliver" or whatever have you, I didnt pay much attention, I would just move them to another location and set them to UT again. Unfortunately, some of these traders would have cargo that they were intending to sell, but somehow forgot about after I relocated them and reset them (not sure if you want to address it from this end or not). This trader was such a one. He had a cargo hold full of silicon wafers he was doing nothing with. Apparently, he wanted to buy more energy cells than he had enough room for (I suppose, perhaps it is more likely that someone has eaten of the forbiden 0 denominator apple - purely speculative of course). So, I repeated the process only this time I ejected his silicon wafers before he reached plant Alpha. After he visited plant Alpha (no freeze), he bought energy cells to the brim and jumped to Parinid Prime. Here he sold some of the energy cells and jumped to a nearby sector (forget name) where he purchased some ore (etc., etc., etc.,)... No FREEZE!

Of course, I am sure this is not the cause of all FREEZE problems. But it is perhaps a good chunk of them. Please fix. In the meantime, users who are experiencing this FREEZE can simply pay closer attention to their cargo holds (not that we should have too, but we do, at least for now). Just between you and I, I like the game so I am thankful I can work around it until fix (if others dont surface, fingers crossed).

EGOSOFT: You guys have my email (or can send a message on your website). Let me know if you would like the save game for this. I will back it up and isolate it so it will be there if you need it. I believe you guys have a hit game, not too sure how many will sit through all the freezes though. Good luck getting them rooted out.

Gimpex · Post by **Gimpex** » Wed, 28. Dec 05, 19:49

Hmm...that sounds like a probable cause (especially if you reproduced the reults that much) but I don't think that my problem is the same, sadly enough. My game seems to haing within 2 hours of play at any given time, whether I start a new game or I continue my old game which is the Wealthy Trader non-storyline character. Not too sure what could be causing this, but if I could find a way to log script events or some such...perhaps I could at least narrow it down a bit?

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Wed, 28. Dec 05, 21:36

Apparently it is only one reason for freeze. I can play for hours now without freeze though, which is good. The important thing is that I now know what it is not. It is not hardware, drivers, and codecs.

Logging script events would be helpful. It is possible that scripts for regular ships servicing plants could be causing crashes as well. It is difficult to find these things because if your save is too far off from freeze there are too many variables to accurately reproduce the crash.

Oh well, I am going to mess with it some more to find out what I can.

bladeuk · Post by **bladeuk** » Wed, 28. Dec 05, 22:57

Just posted this in an identicle thread, if anyone hasnt seen it

Check out madboris's codec checker avalible here:

http://forum2.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=113628

Worked out all my sound loop freezes!

pablonmon · Post by **pablonmon** » Thu, 29. Dec 05, 00:02

Thanks for the tip, it did'nt work for me, but I had'nt thought of emptying the cargo when switching the use of a frieghter... Still locks up if I hit SETA and leave for 10 or 20 mins...

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Thu, 29. Dec 05, 00:22

Gimpex, Just wanted to say that mine was very similar. I liked to set SETA and then just leave for a while. Problem is, you need to get a save close enough to the crash to where you can do NOTHING and it reproduce. You can then begin to try and eliminate.

I just produced my second predictable freeze (by playing and continously saving w/ salvage insurance until I was close enough to freeze). The results are very wierd.

My first freeze had to do with a UT with old cargo calculating his next trip and not including the old cargo. Once the silicon wafers (173 of them) are ejected, his trip becomes successful. If they are not ejected, the game freezes as soon as he lands at the power plant. I assumed it was because he had no room for Energy Cells he was purchasing.

My second freeze is similar. This time the old cargo is Energy Cells. He has 800 of them and is about to purchase another 800. This really is telling because he has plenty of cargo hold for the purchase. Again, if I eject 800 Energy Cells (perhaps less would do) his trip is fine. Of course a stop command on both cases averts the freeze.

As in the first case, in the second I began by cancelling all orders but the orders for one ship. This time it was the second to last ship. I can reproduce either of these over, and over, and over, and over.

Theory: UT is initially calculating to buy enough energy cells for his itinerary plus some to sell for profit (no trips without profit). The problem must be what happens after step one when the algorithm meets reality. Reality is this trader now does not have enough cargo hold to execute the remainder of his journey as planned because what he will pick up after he sells the surplus energy will not fit. I am thinking that the trader has a queue of some sort and at each phase of his journey a routine is called to handle any problems (notify user) or determine next phase to enter into the queue (which is a data structure of fixed size). Here, the problem resolution portion of the routine has not contemplated the cargo or the portion which determines next phase is performing some illegal operation (or calculation) as a result of problem resolution not considering this (or catching it). This is of course speculative, I have not done any scripting for X3 so I am unfamiliar with the design.

Can anyone from EGOSOFT tell me if they are aware of this??? Every freeze I have had since I have been trying to isolate them (two thus far) have to do with this.

Anyways, for those that are interested. I am going to confirm my theory by ejecting the energy cells and observing the trader to see the size of his next scheduled pickup.

Skumleren · Post by **Skumleren** » Thu, 29. Dec 05, 00:34

I will have to devide this up.

Patch 1.2:
No crashes at all.

How many game hours did you have before your crash?
Played at least 3000 game hours i think (I like to be thurough)

Did you have universal traders?
Ohh aye. Tons of them

Have you visited more than ~30 sectors?
Well, i think i have been to every sector now. Thanks to the Universe planner and x-station excel sheets

Have you met all of the above criteria, played 48 hours plus, and not experienced this?
Not a single bloody one.

Here is the funny part:

Upgraded to 1.3

I loaded my old game with the campaign finished.

5 minutes after, it crashed. I loaded, tried again. It crashed. I thought what the hell, and started a new game with the explorer start.

I got a good start and tried to build a silicon mine in ore belt. Worked fine. I saved, and went to bed. Next day i tried to load the save game, and it never made it past the loading screen. I couldnt even ctrl alt delete out of it. Total crash. I loaded a previous game and tried again. Saved, loaded, Crash.

Now then, i tried to place the mine different places and sectors. Crash.

I tried with power plants and other stations. Crash.

In short whenever i place a station, and saves, all following savegames becomes corrupted in a way that when i try to load the game it never makes it past the loading screen.

How many game hours did you have before your crash?
It varies, but just enough to build a station

Did you have universal traders?
Yes in one game, no in another, but the results were the same. Crash when loading

Have you visited more than ~30 sectors?
yes and no as above.

Have you met all of the above criteria, played 48 hours plus, and not experienced this?
no. Extreme amount of crashes, but all when loading saved games.
(That doesnt make it any better though)
Devs. Please fix this. The game is actually out of commision for me untill fixed.

yoshida · Post by **yoshida** » Thu, 29. Dec 05, 00:49

Skumleren, are you using any mods or scripts? Is this the case for all of the game types, or are your saves only corrupting for a particular game type?

Save corruptions aside, I think that different players are going to discover different bugs. Obviously, those that design X3 could not anticipate all of the ways in which players would use the game. For instance, some are perhaps more heavily involved in the storyline and fighting while others might be adjusting some things and then hitting SETA. Designers perhaps expected users to take control of UT, empty (by selling or otherwise) the cargo, and then start UT again (or perhaps simply had an oversight - it happens). Everything looks good on paper, it is another thing to implement it. Then, it is a completely different thing once you give it to users who are doing things you never thought of during testing.