Question: calculating turn rate

[Cursed Ghost]

Hi all

Does anyone know what the formula for calculating turn rate is ?, I ask because I'm building the ships page for x2 however the value given for turn rate in game is somewhat opaque and doesn't really give you a true sense of just how quick or slow a ship will turn when tuned up.

Which of course is an important factor to consider when deciding what ships to buy, because in the case of say a Corvette if the turn rate is to slow to keep up with enemy fighters then that renders the ship completely useless because you will never be able to hit anything unless you are coming at the target head on.

Conversely if the turn rate is to high as is the case for some M5s then the ship is equally useless because the steering is just to sensitive so knowing how much turn rate each rudder tuning adds can help you determine the maximum number of rudder tunings you can apply before the steering becomes to sensitive, personally I would say the turn rate for any ship shouldn't be more than about 60rpm because much more than that and the steering is to sensitive which makes the ship hard to fly.

At first I though it was just a flat value of 1 but after a quick bit of testing I was able to determine this is wrong because that would give an Osprey a turn rate of 12.7rpm when fully tuned but the turn rate of a fully tuned Osprey is only a little over 5 so after some more testing I came up with this.

Turn Rate = ((base rpm / 10) x number of rudder tunings) + base rpm

For example: a Teladi Osprey
base turn rate horizontal = 2.7 rpm
base turn rate vertical = 2.7 rpm
base roll rate = 6 rpm
max rudder tunings 10

Turn Rate Horizontal & Vertical
2.7 rpm / 10 = 0.27
0.27 x 10 rudder tunings = 2.7 rpm
2.7 rpm + 2.7 base rpm = max turn rate 5.4 rpm

Roll Rate
6 rpm / 10 = 0.6
0.6 x 10 rudder tunings = 6 rpm
6 rpm + base roll rate 6 rpm = max roll rate 12 rpm

This does seem to check out, if I set a stop watch for 1 minute place my crosshairs over a fixed point say the doors of a station and then turn continually counting how many times my crosshairs pass over that point until the alarm chimes then the count seems to be about right, I did the same for role rate and again the count seems to be about right, so I just wanted to confirm if this is correct.

Of course it would be nice if the game showed you the actual turn / roll rate of the ships on information screen but c'est la vie.

[Zeron-mk7]

Hi all

Does anyone know what the formula for calculating turn rate is ?, I ask because I'm building the ships page for x2 however the value given for turn rate in game is somewhat opaque and doesn't really give you a true sense of just how quick or slow a ship will turn when tuned up.

As far I think , there are no formula, each ship have own parameters. If you open Tships file with X2 Editor, then you will see, each ship has: Acceleration, Speed, Turn, Pitch, Roll parameters. If parameter was higher, then ship will moves faster, if lower, ship moves slower.

[Cursed Ghost]

I think you may have misunderstood my question

taking an Osprey as an example the default turn rate is as I noted above 2.7 rpm when fully upgraded the turn rate is a little over 5 rpm, now when I look in the x2 editor I don't see a stat that tells me how much turn rate each rudder tuning adds not to mention the fact that when I ran the above calculation on a disco which has a base turn rate of 12rpm on the horizontal and 15rpm on the vertical, I got 2 different values if I recall when I added 2 rudder tunings the turn rate was a little over 14 on the horizontal and 18 on the vertical.

So again there is no way rudder tunings can be adding a flat value to the default turn rate there has to be some kind of calculation going on in the background, now from the admittedly limited testing I did what I presented above seems to be correct but I wanted to verify it since this isn't shown in the X2 editor nor is it shown in game hence my comment about wishing the game showed you the real turn rate and roll rate of ships in the ship information screen instead of some meaningless percentage that tells me nothing because that would make life simpler, nor am I able to just check the source code to see what the calculation is since X2 isn't open source.

[Zeron-mk7]

I able to just check the source code to see what the calculation is since X2 isn't open source.

There are no such information anywhere, as far I know, therefore most probably it's hardcoded into the game engine, maybe mostly into the obj files. OBJ files can be decompile and recompile, there are tools for it in Russian game forum called "X2-ASM".

[Cursed Ghost]

Perhaps a screenshot would make things clearer.

https://i.ibb.co/qYq0Z9dV/screenshot.png

Now as I mentioned I'm building the ships page for X2, notice the 3 values for turn rate that are currently filled out with question marks, what I'm trying to figure out is how to determine what those values are, unfortunately I can't get this in game since the game doesn't tell you the real turn rate for each ship, I can't get this from the x2 editor either, so I figure I have maybe 2 ways I can find this out.

First I can try and work out what calculation is used to determine the max turn rate for each ship, the issues here is trying to verify if I have the calculation right, one possible way to do that is to check the source code unfortunately I can't do that since the game isn’t open source, so I figure my best bet is just ask the devs to confirm if I have it right and if not tell me what the calculation is.

My other possible option is to see is anyone knows of a way to use the script editor to make the game tell me what the max yaw, pitch and roll values of each ship are.

I supposed its possible that someone knows of another way I can figure this out, its just a pain that the game doesn't tell you in the ships information screen as this would make life a whole lot easier.

[Zeron-mk7]

My other possible option is to see is anyone knows of a way to use the script editor to make the game tell me what the max yaw, pitch and roll values of each ship are.

I'm not too good known about scripting, but I doubt, that even are possible to do with scripts. You can look at all script commands in Exscriptor - new external script editor.

I understand what you want to do, but it's very complicated way , you can simply use the same ships parameters, who are available in the game and in Tships file, not searching magic formula, who possible are in the game engine.

[Cursed Ghost]

I understand what you want to do, but it's very complicated way , you can simply use the same ships parameters, who are available in the game and in Tships file, not searching magic formula, who possible are in the game engine.

True enough trouble is the turn rate for ships shown in game is misleading and I want to know the real values, looking at the turn rate for Corvettes for example you would be forgiven for thinking that the turn rate is sufficient to keep up with enemy fighters but you'd be wrong the turn rate for all corvettes is to low rendering them useless, although to be fair the ship designs in X2 are just kind of bad across the board and almost every ship in the game has serious design flaws that should have been fixed.

All capital ships and Corvettes suffer from turn rate that is to low rendering them useless

All destroyers are underpowered with only 18 guns, and should have at least 8 guns on the top bottom left right and rear and should have at least 8 main guns as well additionally they should be able to equip laser tower weapons

All Carriers are underpowered and need more firepower and should have at least 4 guns on the top bottom left right and rear and should have at least 4 main guns

All Corvettes are underpowered and should have at least 2 guns in the top bottom left right and rear and 4 main guns

When it comes to Split ships they need more shielding

Argon ships need more engine power

Paranid ships suffer from a lack of cargo capacity

Boron ships are some of the weakest and most underpowered in the whole game, and need a complete overhaul not to mention the fact that the ship models are ugly as well and need to be replaced.

While Teladi ships are well protected, decently armed and have good cargo capacity they all suffer from a lack of engine power that again renders all Teladi ships useless because you can't catch your target.

Ironically as weak as Pirate ships are the overturned pirate ships you get from the plot are better then pretty much every other ship the same class

An Overturned Mandalay is superior to pretty much every other M5

In terms of speed an overturned Mandalay with 30 engine tunings has a top speed of 520.36 m/s which makes it almost as quick as a Boron Octopus or Split Jaguar but it has better firepower a bigger cargo hold and more shields while its turn rate is the slowest of any m5 that’s actually a good thing because when fully tuned the ships handling is quick and responsive without being overly sensitive.

An Overturned Bayamon is superior to pretty much every other M4

In terms of speed an overturned Bayamon with 30 engine tunings has a top speed of 412.25 m/s which makes it the fastest M4 in the game with those 4 weapon mounts it has more firepower then every other M4 as well its also has the biggest cargo hold of any M4 the only real issue an overturned Bayamon has is the lack of shielding in terms of weapon compatibility it can't equip Gamma PAC's but it can use Alpha PSGs and Ion D's which make it a serious threat with just 2 Alpha PSGs I can take out stations and capital ships but with 4 pretty much every target in the game is dead meat and unlike Beta PSGs that run out of steam to quick Alpha PSGs only use the same energy as Gamma IREs do so you can fire them all day long without a problem you will need to switch to heavier weapons to deal hull damage though but that’s not a problem

An Overturned Orinoco is superior to most other M3s

In terms of speed an overturned Orinoco with 31 engine tunings has a top speed of 311.74 m/s making it the fastest M3 in the game it has the biggest cargo hold of all M3s in terms of firepower it is comparable to other m3s it can't use Beta HEPTs but that’s not an issue just use Alpha HEPT's Alpha PSGs and Ion D's they are more then enough to get the job done especially since you don’t really have to worry about the ships reactor power or the lack there of hampering your firepower its only real issue is the weaker shielding but even then its still got better shields then a Mamba it's steering is also the slowest of all m3s but I never found that to be a big problem it still has a turn rate somewhere in the region of 35rpm which is just barley enough though I would like to see it's rudder tunings increased to at least 30

To be honest my favourite M3 has to be the Khaak fighter that thing is lethal to everything that isn’t an Ospray or bigger sadly Beta Kyons just aren't strong enough to beat 375mj of shielding at least not with only 4000 weapons energy which is ridicules when the ship has a 200mw reactor and therefore should have at least 100mw weapons energy

its only other major issue is the small cargo bay that can only hold M class cargo that really needs to be increased at the very least it should be able to hold 200 units and it should be able to hold L class cargo like other m3s other than that it’s a pretty solid all round ship that is on par with a Nova while its cargo bay is a little small at least you aren't being crippled by it unlike with the Perseus which has a smaller cargo hold than a Mandalay.

While the Perseus may have the most fire power of any m3 without a big enough cargo hold its hard to put that fire power to use.

That's something else I'd fix I'd quadruple the weapons energy of all weapons because all weapons run out of energy to quickly in long battles like a Xenon Invasion mission.

i'd also switch the damage and bullet speed stats around for HEPT and PPC because they seem a little confused the anti fight weapons seem to be set up for anti capital combat where the the anti capital weapons seem to be set up for anti fighter combat.

i'd also increase the bullet speed for all anti fighter weapons because bullet speed of around 200 / 250m/s is to slow for anti fighter combat and needs to be at least double that so IREs would have bullet speed of around 600m/s PACs would have bullet speed of around 500m/s and HEPTs would have bullet speed of around 400 m/s and PPCs would have bullet speed around 250m/s since they are anti capital weapons.

I'd also remove the requirement for energy cells to use the jump drive because the stated reason in game that scout ships can't use a jump drive is that they can't supply sufficient power but that is bunk when the power is being supplied by E-Cells therefore I'd upgrade all m5s to M size cargo and allow them to use the jump drive and the triplex scanner which would help with there job as scouts and since the reactor on a scout isn't powerful enough to operate a jump drive then I'd allow the power to be supplied via E-Cells or Space Flys and for m4s and bigger the jump drive would be powered from the ships reactor, and of course the longer the jump the more weapons energy and shield power it would drain unless you supplied the power for the jump externally with E-Cells or Space Flys

additionally id allow gate less jumps as well so long as the player can supply jump coordinates therefore you would only be able to use gate less jumps for sectors you have already visited.

In any event I digress.

[Zeron-mk7]

All destroyers are underpowered with only 18 guns, and should have at least 8 guns on the top bottom left right and rear and should have at least 8 main guns as well additionally they should be able to equip laser tower weapons

As far I known, game has limitations, hardcoded maximum can be 4 lasers in each turret position - Front, Right, rear, Left, Top, Bottom. X2 have many game limitations .

Most of your complaints about ships, weapons parameters, can be easy to fix, by making totally new ships and weapons parameters rebalance .

I'd also remove the requirement for energy cells to use the jump drive

I'm not sure, if it's possible to change that, maybe that is defined into the some kind of scripts or OBJ files. Maybe can possible to make new custom command, where can use Jump Drive without Energy Cells, but I'm not sure.

additionally id allow gate less jumps as well so long as the player can supply jump coordinates therefore you would only be able to use gate less jumps for sectors you have already visited.

In Russian game forum, there is such kind of script "JumpDrive Upgrade Mk.1"- where is possible to Jump into the selected coordinates in the sector by using Jumpdrive, but it's also requirement Energy Cells.

[Cursed Ghost]

As far I known, game has limitations, hardcoded maximum can be 4 lasers in each turret position - Front, Right, rear, Left, Top, Bottom. X2 have many game limitations .

well that's not a problem just do 2 guns per turret and then do 4 turrets per side of the ship and as it happens that's a better way to do about things anyway since that would mean capital ships could engage multiple targets at once since each turret could target independently that would also eliminate blind spots since turrets could be positioned in such a way that all parts of the ship are covered and if turrets where given a 360 degree arc of fire that that would mean when broadsiding a target you could bring more fire-power to bare against a target since you would be able to attack the target with every gun the ship has equipped if the left and right turrets when moved to the top and bottom of the ship.

Most of your complaints about ships, weapons parameters, can be easy to fix, by making totally new ships and weapons parameters rebalance .

true enough and in fact I have already made a few small tweaks to that end for example I increased the weapon energy for beta kyon emitters from 4000 to 5000 similarly I increased the energy supply for alpha kyon emitters from 2000 to 3000 so they don't run out of steam quite so quick, but ideally Ego should revisit the earlier games and fix defects like this and I mean to be honest my complaints about bad balancing and missing functionality aren't just directed at x2, because x3r, x3tc, x3ap all suffer from similarly bad balancing and missing functionality.

for example a protect home base and land command for your station defence ships or some proper fleet control commands or what about really basic stuff like

a collect minerals command assuming you are equipped with a ore collector and special command software
a collect astronauts command assuming you are equipped with cargo life support system and special command software
a collect space flys command assuming you are equipped with a space fly collector and special command software and ion disruptors

What about ships that in x2 are already to slow getting nurfer in x3r take the Teladi Osprey as an example in x3r the max turn rate is a pathetic 2.4rpm while in x2 the max turn rate is 5.4rpm and even at that higher value the turn rate is much to slow I get that corvettes aren't fighters but come on they should at least be usable did no one bother to tests this stuff talk about careless, and yes I'm complaining a lot but it's not like my complaints aren't valid or without without justification.

the X games aren't bad for what they are but with the application of a little care they could be so much better if only Ego would pull there thumb out and address this stuff, of course if they haven't addressed issue like this by now they probably aren't going to and from there perspective I get it why bother if its not going to make them any money my issue though is that there is only so much that mods can do and therefore a lot of this can't be fixed by players and even if they could be most lack the necessary knowledge and skill to do so, you honestly think wouldn't just fix this stuff my self if I could, but alas I lack the know-how.

I'm not sure, if it's possible to change that, maybe that is defined into the some kind of scripts or OBJ files. Maybe can possible to make new custom command, where can use Jump Drive without Energy Cells, but I'm not sure.

it is because the cheat pack allows you to do gate less jumps and I'm pretty sure you don't need energy cells to use the command although I'd need to check that, also isn't it just the earlier games in the series that use compiled OBJ files didn't ego stop using those after X-tention ?

With regards to limitations in the games engine/script editor why not just port the earlier games to the engine/script editor used by x3tc as that's a lot more capable, another thing that probably wont happen.

ultimately the issue here isn't that this stuff isn't possible, its simply a lack of willingness to do the work because from there perspective there is no benefit for them to spend the time and effort to do it, then again you could say the same of patching the game so that it will run on windows 10 and 11 and they did that so who knows, but of course the obvious point that people tend to miss is that profit isn't and shouldn't be the only reason to decide revisit the earlier games and address mistakes or stuff which they just didn't have the time to finish at the time.

[Zeron-mk7]

it is because the cheat pack allows you to do gate less jumps and I'm pretty sure you don't need energy cells to use the command although I'd need to check that

I look at Cheat script - Jump to Position and if I understand script correctly, script simply add necessary energy cells into the ship for Jump and after jump, remove them from the ship, therefore, It's means, Jump drive use energy cell for Jumpdrive as it's hardcoded.
I will try to write new script, who will add Jumpdrive Upgrade MK1 , with it will be possible to Jump into the any location without using Energy cell, similar like it was in Cheat script.

also isn't it just the earlier games in the series that use compiled OBJ files didn't ego stop using those after X-tention ?

In X2 and in all X3 games are OBJ files.