Discussions about Historic Bible Languages/Translations

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Falcrack
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Falcrack »

Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 00:49
Here's the first line of the Lord's Prayer in Middle English (about 1000 - 1500CE):
Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name.

But in 2025 English, it is:
Our Father in heaven: May your name be holy.
The way I read that in English is

Our Father that art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Which to me is perfectly understandable, and resembles the Middle English quite well in my opinion.

But I read from the King James version of the Bible, so I am more used to the older style of English. To me at least, the more modern translations that use language closer to present day English sound less poetic and a bit grating to my ears, like they are writing to accomodate someone with a 4th grade reading level. That's probably just a reflection of how I was raised though.
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Falcrack »

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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Usenko »

Falcrack wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 15:50
Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 00:49
Here's the first line of the Lord's Prayer in Middle English (about 1000 - 1500CE):
Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name.

But in 2025 English, it is:
Our Father in heaven: May your name be holy.
The way I read that in English is

Our Father that art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Which to me is perfectly understandable, and resembles the Middle English quite well in my opinion.

But I read from the King James version of the Bible, so I am more used to the older style of English. To me at least, the more modern translations that use language closer to present day English sound less poetic and a bit grating to my ears, like they are writing to accomodate someone with a 4th grade reading level. That's probably just a reflection of how I was raised though.
The King James version is modern English (albeit early modern English)!

And yes, from Middle English to Modern English you can see how things develop (though there's a world of difference in terms of pronunciation - some weirdness happened at about the time the KJV was translated, called the "Great Vowel Shift" which changed the way English sounded).

But if we go back another 500ish years, we get this (old English):
Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum; Si þin nama gehalgod[1].

That far back it's for all intents and purposes a different language!


As for the different Bible translations, here's my heresy for the day: The KJV was an excellent translation for its day; the scholarship used in its production was the best available. But we wouldn't be doing our job properly as Bible translators if we couldn't do better now. We've been working on improving it for 400 years, after all!

I use modern translations, not because of aesthetics, but because in general they get us far closer to the original meaning than the KJV ever could.

[1] þ is "thorn", a letter representing the sound now made by "th". This was lost from English for . . . reasons.
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by clakclak »

Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 23:04
Falcrack wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 15:50
Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 00:49
Here's the first line of the Lord's Prayer in Middle English (about 1000 - 1500CE):
Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name.

But in 2025 English, it is:
Our Father in heaven: May your name be holy.
The way I read that in English is

Our Father that art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Which to me is perfectly understandable, and resembles the Middle English quite well in my opinion.

But I read from the King James version of the Bible, so I am more used to the older style of English. To me at least, the more modern translations that use language closer to present day English sound less poetic and a bit grating to my ears, like they are writing to accomodate someone with a 4th grade reading level. That's probably just a reflection of how I was raised though.
The King James version is modern English (albeit early modern English)!

And yes, from Middle English to Modern English you can see how things develop (though there's a world of difference in terms of pronunciation - some weirdness happened at about the time the KJV was translated, called the "Great Vowel Shift" which changed the way English sounded).

[...]
The great vowel shift, which while spread over nearly 300 years had, annoyingly so, part of its changes occur after the invention of the printing press and is thus partially responsible for why many english words are spelled very different than they are pronounced.

While many of my fellow Germans bemoan our regular spelling reforms, having to learn English as a foreign language, one quickly comes to appreciate them as a luxury afforded to German and thus being able to keep orthography and pronunciation somewhat in line, by virtue of being a far less widely used language with an overwhelming amount of native speakers confined to a handful of countries and thus come up with reforms that actually stick.
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Falcrack »

Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 23:04 As for the different Bible translations, here's my heresy for the day: The KJV was an excellent translation for its day; the scholarship used in its production was the best available. But we wouldn't be doing our job properly as Bible translators if we couldn't do better now. We've been working on improving it for 400 years, after all!

I use modern translations, not because of aesthetics, but because in general they get us far closer to the original meaning than the KJV ever could.
Which Bible translation, in your opinion, comes closest to the original meaning? Do you have some examples where the KJV provides a less than optimal translation, which another translation does better?

Also, do you feel that some translations are biased to better support the preexisting beliefs of the translator?
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Usenko »

WARNING: Extremely long post. Sorry!
Falcrack wrote: Tue, 30. Dec 25, 00:46 Which Bible translation, in your opinion, comes closest to the original meaning? Do you have some examples where the KJV provides a less than optimal translation, which another translation does better?

Also, do you feel that some translations are biased to better support the preexisting beliefs of the translator?
These are incredibly interesting (and fun!) questions.


1) Which translation is most accurate?

I would have had very different ideas about things before I started doing my own translation. Assuming someone is fairly intelligent and thoughtful about translational issues, they're likely to start with a basic assumption that there's some kind of theoretical "perfect" translation, which we'll represent in percentage terms, as 100%. Mostly people are fairly comfortable with the idea that this is something you can approach but never actually reach, which means they think you might have (say) the NIV on 85%, the NRSV on 97% and the Message on 34%. :)

The reality is that that's not how it works. There's a whole range of issues.

One issue is that there are two things you're actually aiming at - translating the WORDS correctly (which we call Semantic accuracy) and translating the MEANING accurately (Idiomatic accuracy). It's actually possible to get the words almost exactly right without getting the meaning across; for example, one phrase from my own work is as follows:

Μετὰ δὲ πέντε ἡμέρας κατέβη ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς Ἁνανίας μετὰ πρεσβυτέρων
If I'm to be 100% literal, that would be:
With but five days, moved in a downward direction the chief priest Ananias, with old men.

Obviously that's a pig's breakfast of a translation. So if we're being accurate in English, we'd usually translate that:
"Then after five days, Ananias the chief priest came down, with old men."

But if we're being more idiomatic, we might say:

"Five days later, Ananias the High Priest brought some Elders down [from Jerusalem][1]."

In practice a translation always involves some semantic features and some idiomatic features. But you must prioritise one over the other at certain points of your translation. So for example, the NRSV tends to put most of its effort into semantic accuracy, but can be a bit rough with idiomatic accuracy. On the other hand, the Message has a surprisingly good level of idiomatic accuracy whilst basically being semantically inaccurate.

For this reason when I'm working on the Bible I mostly use translations like the NIV, which take a balanced approach to both, and don't slavishly focus on either. But the thing is, most of them aren't WRONG as such, it's just that they have different approaches[2]. If asked to choose between semantic and idiomatic accuracy, I tend to prioritise idiomatic (which is why I quite like the Message). But generally speaking I have a lot of sympathy for translators. The job is HARD. Every Tuesday I meet online with a Greek Translation club (!) and there are times when the group (who each have pretty good translation chops) simply can't manage a particular phrase.

2) What is wrong with the KJV?

The KJV is a balanced translation. The translators involved did a fantastic job considering they were working in the 17th Century. However, the knowledge of Greek vocabulary and grammar weren't as great as that available today, and they also had a limited range of manuscripts to work from. A few examples:

* In Phil 3:20, the KJV translates the word "πολίτευμα" (politeuma) as "conversation." This was based on a relatively small (and in retrospect unusual) range of translations in other works; that word we now understand in more of a political sense, so a better translation (and a more usual one in modern translations) is "citizenship."

* The KJV was translated from a specific Greek text, called the "Textus Receptus," which was the most complete and well-known Greek text of the NT in 1611. However, since that time we've had an embarrasment of riches in archaeology, which has flooded us with new evidence, and from this we've found a fair number of places where the Textus Receptus preserves odd readings[3] - for example, the book of Mark usually ends at 16:8, but the Textus Receptus contains a 7 verse addendum[4].

* There are a few places (e.g. Luke 1:35) where the KJV translation is grammatically awkward, where tenses are translated incorrectly (and could be better represented in other ways). This is simply because Greek scholars of the day didn't know what we know today. The study advances.

* There are some phrases which are affected by liturgical and theological conventions. The KJV translation of 1 Tim 2:12 translates the word "ἡσυχίᾳ" as "Silence," implying that women are to remain completely silent in the church (conventional at the time), but a better translation would be "quietness" (i.e. it is an instruction on appropriate behaviour in a church setting, not a prohibition on participation in the church's activities). Similarly, the KJV rendering of the Lord's Prayer in Matthew includes the liturgical addition "For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, both now and forever, amen," which is simply not present in the original text (but would have been assumed as part of the Lord's prayer by most educated churchmen of the day).

This is even before we talk about the other issue - even if you were to create a completely accurate translation in 1611, the drift of the English language since then creates problems. For example, the second person pronoun used to vary by person and case in English (thee and thou, you and ye) but all are now combined into "you," making the KJV's use of all these different variants obsolete (and sometimes it doesn't correctly represent the Greek pronouns anyway!).

3) Are some translations biased?

I would say that there is always a degree of bias in any translation. It's an inherent part of human thinking; we aren't computers, and all translation involves human thought (which is, by nature, sometimes biased).

Translators make a lot of effort to avoid bias, but it does turn up from time to time. An example that comes readily to mind for me is the ESV - in most respects an excellent translation, but it falls down badly in its translation of some phrases which affect theological approaches to women in the church (the most egregious one in my opinion being Romans 16, where not only does it translate Phoebe's title "διάκονον" [deacon] as "Servant of the church", in earlier versions it also translates "Junia" [a feminine name] as "Junias" [masculine], in order to cope with the fact that this person is unambiguously identified as an apostle!)[5].

So I guess the answer I'd give would be "Yes, but with asterisks." :)


[1] The phrase "moved down" relates to the geographical idea held by Jews that Jerusalem is the highest point of the land of Judah, and "moving down," "coming down" or "going down" implies movement away from Jerusalem, whilst "moving up" means towards Jerusalem.

[2] There are a few translations which contain a few intentionally misleading translations (e.g. the New World translation and the Passion translation). These are rare however.

[3] This isn't uncommon in ancient texts - remember this is before movable type printing, so all books were handwritten. You always get a few variations here and there.

[4] I am in the process of reading a book by a scholar, a friend of mine, who discusses this, and his thesis is that the abrupt ending of the book in verse 8 (which has angels tell the women that Jesus has risen but does not record any encounters with him) is entirely deliberate, and that the narrative makes more sense without the additional ending (which appears to be mostly taken from other gospels and includes some . . oddities. :) ).

[5] This has since been corrected. It is important to acknowledge that those who are doing the translation work are normal humans, but they do their utmost to get things right, and I acknowledge that.
Last edited by Usenko on Tue, 30. Dec 25, 12:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Alan Phipps »

I'm thinking this thread may need a new title. :wink:
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

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Alan Phipps wrote: Tue, 30. Dec 25, 13:37 I'm thinking this thread may need a new title. :wink:
In ancient Greek.
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by jlehtone »

Alan Phipps wrote: Tue, 30. Dec 25, 13:37 I'm thinking this thread may need a new title. :wink:
"The Return of the Footnotes" :roll:
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τὰ παρασημειώματα ἐπέστρεψαν [the explanatory writings have returned] (was "What's that you say, sonny?")

Post by Usenko »

Like this maybe?
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Alan Phipps »

I was thinking more along the lines of: 'Discussion of Historic Bible Translations'. However, the following would work too (for me at least): 'It's all Greek to me!' :D
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Usenko »

By all means, make it so - I cannot change titles any more! :)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by jlehtone »

Usenko wrote: Mon, 29. Dec 25, 00:49 Latin was spoken in most of what we'd now call Italy, and used in formal government situations in the Roman world, but for ordinary everyday communication, most people spoke Koine Greek
Alan Phipps wrote: Tue, 30. Dec 25, 22:59 'It's all Greek to me!'
Is it ironic that a language that "everybody" knew was replaced by 'Graecum est, non legitur' ?
(Although classic and Koine Greek are not quite the same, I presume.)


For whatever reason, Finnish version of the phrase is: 'Täyttä hepreaa' (It's all Hebrew.)
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Re: What's that you say, sonny?

Post by Usenko »

jlehtone wrote: Wed, 31. Dec 25, 06:10
(Although classic and Koine Greek are not quite the same, I presume.)
Koine is a BIT different to Classical Greek. However, a person writing in classical Greek at the time of Christ and beyond would still be seen as writing Greek the "right" way - Koine is simplified, and sometimes shows evidence of influence from other languages (some parts of the New Testament show hints of Hebrew or Aramaic thinking on behalf of their writers).

The writer of the book of Acts, Luke, tends to write in much more formal Greek than some of the other New Testament writers. I get a bit of a chuckle out of some of the other scholars by commenting that "Dude thinks he's Homer." ;)
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Re: Discussions about Historic Bible Languages/Translations

Post by Mailo »

Hello again Usenko,

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