Discussions about Historic Bible Languages/Translations

[Usenko Temporary]

G'day everyone.

If the name Usenko means nothing to you, no worries - but I'm back!

(Or at least I WILL be back if I can figure out which confounded email my account used to be linked to! This is my temporary account)

I have started playing X4, and it filled me with nostalgia for the old days of the forum . . .

Anyone still here from the halcyon days of X2 and X3?

[Chips]

Welcome back, again

Been a while since you last posted Surely CBJ can give a hint as to which address it was?

As for starting to play X4 - you mean you didn't have X4 previously? The Xmas sale tempted you didn't it

Really enjoyed X4 as it's a breath of fresh air into series for me - clocked more hours in it than all the X3 variants combined. Hopefully a similar bug for yourself and it'll keep you entertained for many many hours

[Gavrushka]

Well, your return sure is a festive treat. Delighted to see you again, Usenko.

No discussing the Ashes, umm, forum rules you know.

X4 is a great game, and I do still play it on occasion, but I've reached that age where it can be a little overwhelming.

I'm here mainly for the Wordle thread and to eavesdrop on conversations that are well above my paygrade!

[Winter Dragon]

I still lurk here, but I'll try to lurk a little less in 2026.

Best wishes to everyone over the festive season!

[Usenko Temporary]

Welcome back, again

Been a while since you last posted Surely CBJ can give a hint as to which address it was?

A bit, yes! I just looked back, and it was way back during the pandemic. Crap, that was 5 years ago! o.O

As for starting to play X4 - you mean you didn't have X4 previously? The Xmas sale tempted you didn't it

Black Friday sales, if you must know.

Really enjoyed X4 as it's a breath of fresh air into series for me - clocked more hours in it than all the X3 variants combined. Hopefully a similar bug for yourself and it'll keep you entertained for many many hours

I'm already enjoying it. Already clocked up 56 hours!

[Usenko Temporary]

No discussing the Ashes, umm, forum rules you know.

Okay, no problem.

*BIG SMUG GRIN*

[fiksal]

well hello there, I remember you

[Alan Phipps]

Welcome back, I can help with your e-mail address but would need you to PM me something as proof of prior identity first - maybe fill in the blanks for your Internet Provider back then @m******s.com.**

Have a good holiday in the meantime.

[Skism]

Hello Usenko still teaching?

[Usenko Temporary]

Funny you should ask!

The answer is somewhere between "yes" and "no."'

The NO component: It happened. My eyes turned red and I started feeling the urge to research. So I enrolled in my PhD program, where I am studying the book of Acts in the New Testament. People who are interested in such things, please feel free to read the footnote[1]. This happened at the end of last year, so I'm still a relative newcomer to the whole academic world, but I'm already enjoying it. I've come to terms with the fact that my job is now writing papers, presenting at conferences and putting a thesis together in my spare time!

The YES component: I am still teaching 1 day per week at the school where I used to work; in addition I am lecturing in New Testament Greek. This is because money is nice, and I prefer to have enough to eat.

(Mrs Usenko is now the primary breadwinner of the house; she says to her friends that she's doing a PhT - "Putting him Through").

(The Usenkolets are now old enough to be working full time and doing their own shopping, which also helps).

[1] Okay, so I am studying Paul's final journey in the book of Acts. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of where it fits in the rhetorical goals of the book.

I am using a fairly new form of analysis - Rhetorical Narratology. This is a combination of Narrative criticism (asking questions about what the author intends to communicate when he's talking about the story) and Rhetorical criticism (asking questions about what the author intends to communicate when he reports speeches or letters [or other forms of communication]).

My thesis is titled "The Art of Defence: Rhetoric and Narrative in Paul's Journey to Rome (Acts 23:23 - 28:16)"

[euclid]

Been a while, hope you stay and welcome back

Cheers Euclid

ps: Merry Christmas.

[Usenko]

It's me! The original, real me! I'M BACK FOR REALSIES!

[Terre]

It's me! The original, real me! I'M BACK FOR REALSIES!

Welcome back, Usenko.

[Alan Phipps]

Hmmm, that 'BIG SMUG GRIN' now has a few wrinkles at the corners. Did something recently happen on the cricket pitch? (Waits for the sympathy allowance comment.)

[Usenko]

Hmmm, that 'BIG SMUG GRIN' now has a few wrinkles at the corners. Did something recently happen on the cricket pitch? (Waits for the sympathy allowance comment.)

Nah, that's more to do with the fact that I'm now over 50.

[Chips]

in addition I am lecturing in New Testament Greek.

I... wait... there seems a lot to unpack in that one sentence Is that a statement about the language it's being taught in? Or a particular translation/interpretation language of the New Testament? Both? Or an offshoot of Greek that's outlined only in the New Testament (a bit like Quebecois isn't 100% French? Or how "American" is an illegitimate offshoot of English )

[fiksal]

I feel the next Atheism thread will be tough for me)

[Usenko]

I... wait... there seems a lot to unpack in that one sentence Is that a statement about the language it's being taught in? Or a particular translation/interpretation language of the New Testament? Both? Or an offshoot of Greek that's outlined only in the New Testament (a bit like Quebecois isn't 100% French? Or how "American" is an illegitimate offshoot of English )

Okay, buckle up!

New Testament Greek is also called "Koine Greek" (Community Greek). It is the primary trade language of the Roman Empire at the time of Christ and for the next 300-400 years[1].

A lot of people ask how different it is from Modern Greek. To answer that I like to use the following exercise.

Here's the first line of the Lord's Prayer in Middle English (about 1000 - 1500CE):
Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name.

But in 2025 English, it is:
Our Father in heaven: May your name be holy.

As you can see, although both languages are English, many years of linguistic drift has made them extremely different.

In the same way, Modern Greek developed from Koine. The drift is perhaps not as extreme as English (which was impacted by a lot of conquest and immigration and therefore drifted very quickly), but it is quite great all the same (Middle English to Modern English is a good model). A lot of the grammar of Koine has changed into more efficient forms[2], and whilst a lot of the words used are similar, there's a lot of differences (and quite a lot of words have drifted in their meaning - for example, μωρός [moros] means foolish or dull in a New Testament context, but in Modern Greek it means a baby! ). Pronunciation is extremely different. The vowel sounds of New Testament Greek have merged or shifted in Modern Greek; this would mean that to modern Greek speakers, a New Testament Greek speaker would sound quite weird.

Putting all this together, Greek is curious in that it was never actually lost - it wasn't like Egyptian, in which an entire ancient language had to be reconstructed by modern scholars from the ground up - but the drift over time still makes it challenging to fully understand. There has never been a time when the overall sense of the New Testament has been lost or obscured, but certain words and phrases have been. The central message of the New Testament remains clear, but there are certain concepts which have become difficult (and that's before we consider issues of context, which always makes ancient texts harder to understand).

So what am I doing in my lectures? I'm starting from the beginning. I'm teaching Bible College students the basics of Koine Greek. By the time we've completed our one year introductory course, students who know absolutely no Greek at all should be able to read a page from the New Testament (with the aid of lexicons and other tools).

My own level of Greek is . . . reasonable. I still need a lexicon for the more technical words, and my workspace has a bunch of charts and tables to help me work through some of the weird features of the language (e.g. 18 different forms of the definite article!), but I can read the New Testament comfortably, and I can also read inscriptions and documents.

I can't read original handwritten manuscripts yet, because that's especially tricky (when it's transliterated by the appropriate experts, they add things modern readers need - e.g. spaces and punctuation!). But I can take a transliterate Greek section and translate it. For my PhD, I have translated the appropriate texts into English already (this being the first thing I did).

[1] This surprises a lot of people, because they assume it would be Latin. Latin was spoken in most of what we'd now call Italy, and used in formal government situations in the Roman world, but for ordinary everyday communication, most people spoke Koine Greek (because it had become the language of the area during Alexander the Great's time).

[2] All things being equal, over time languages drift in the direction that allows for more efficient communication.

[Gavrushka]

Hmmm, that 'BIG SMUG GRIN' now has a few wrinkles at the corners. Did something recently happen on the cricket pitch? (Waits for the sympathy allowance comment.)

Nah, that's more to do with the fact that I'm now over 50.

There are those here who can't remember that far back... *sigh*

Great to see you properly reincarnated.

[Chips]

Here's the first line of the Lord's Prayer in Middle English (about 1000 - 1500CE):
Oure fadir that art in heuenes, halewid be thi name.

But in 2025 English, it is:
Our Father in heaven: May your name be holy.

Very good example - given the Lord's prayer at school was close to ye olde in words, but with modern spelling
I absolutely assumed it'd be in Latin. Makes perfect sense though, if you're going to be studying then to go closest to the original rather than modern optimisations - cheers for the explainer