Xenon needs a upgrade.

[moako]

After you have done some of the missions you get access to the Boron sectors

The game has "custom budgeted start" options which allows you to start with boron space accessible. If you've cleared the quest chain at least once.

Yes I know that but I like to see how the game behave if I start as a new player and I'm not so happy with that.

In my view it shouldn't be possible that ANT are taking over so many sectors in so short notice.
There should be some rule that a factions need a certain amount of ships before they can take over a sector and before this factions take over the next sector the first sector needs a specific number of ships to secure the new sector and also a specific number of defense stations. Otherwise it's going by far to fast.

[stooper88]

(...) I don't think any faction (except player) has a fleet with 15 destroyers.

I'm not sure, but are they listening?? It seems like HOP are accepting the challenge.

(...) the number of ships in a faction fleet seems to have increased (definite example: number of fighters on a Carrier used to be pitiful, except Raptor and Tokyo fleets). Number of fleets may have increased too. Since fleets tend to move together (e.g. the Xenon 1I2K and 1K fleets), it is no surprise that 3-4 destroyer fleets lurk at same Gate.

Indeed, it seems they have this gate covered. In seriousness, I'm not commenting one way or another on this discussion. I just think it's too funny how this post just happened to appear, almost as if in direct response.

If this is a sign of the times, what are poor Xenon to do?

[jlehtone]

(...) I don't think any faction (except player) has a fleet with 15 destroyers.

I'm not sure, but are they listening?? It seems like HOP are accepting the challenge.

When I said "fleet", it did mean "one instance of a job". That screenshot shows three jobs, three fleets,
each with 7 destroyers.

Most factions have had four destroyers per fleet. HOP has always had more, probably to compensate for their lack of any Carrier fleets. Whether the HOP "Doom Fleets" had 5, 6, or always 7 destroyers per fleet, that I cannot remember.

In addition to how many ships per fleet and how many fleets (jobs), there is also some logic that gives those jobs targets. Perhaps it now gives more fleets the same spot (Gate) for patrol/defend than before?

[Araulius]

I think xenon would do better if their mining ships weren't going into hostile space to mine, instead of their own sectors. it is really silly that they go mine in hostile space when they have perfectly good sectors they control to mine in

[Millhillian]

I think one big problem for the Xenon is Hatikvah's Choice 1. Early game the npcs guard it quite well and that defence platform will last a while. Normally long enough for the player to put a monster defence platform/fleet there. Once the player does this it chokes the Xenon and they are more or less doomed. They will have a splurge in ZYA space and Frontier Edge and maybe over near FRF space, but they are no match for the Teladi over there even if they do take sectors from FRF. They all eventually fail because we get strong and so do the npcs who we're frantically selling ships to. But, and it's a big but, it would be crazy for the player to let the Xenon run riot in Hatikvah's Choice and Argon Prime etc as they just eat all your ships.

Also what you do in plots makes some factions really strong and others unstable due to wars so Xenon have no chance long term.

[GCU Grey Area]

it would be crazy for the player to let the Xenon run riot in Hatikvah's Choice...

You mean like this?

This is what can happen if you don't lift a finger to defend Hatikvah's & instead sabotage the Argon's attempts to defend it, e.g. by stealing all their L/XL warships as soon as each one rolls out of the shipyard in Argon Prime (I have an alert setup to let me know whenever that occurs).

It's not crazy, it's all part of the plan. Playing a Spear of the Patriarch game with the Argons as a -30 rep enemy faction, so I am thoroughly enjoying the catastrophic level of carnage the Xenon are inflicting on them.

There's no significant risk for my own ships. Silent Witness I is included on the default travel blacklist for all of my ships, so they have no reason to ever go to the dangerous end of the sector. I don't blacklist Hatikvah's itself because my HQ is in Heretic's End, so sometimes my ships do need to traverse the western end of the sector in order to travel through Morning Star III.

[Y-llian]

This has been said many times bit it bears repeating. The biggest issue for the Xenon is logistics i.e. their clusters cannot support each other.

Case in point. In my new 8.0 start the Teladi has put them under pressure and destroyed all their ships and shipyard in Scale Plate Green I. There’s also a destroyer fleet currently pummelling away at their wharf there.

Meanwhile, in Scale Plate IV, they are trying to rebuild their shipyard (great!) but given the lack of ships in that cluster, they’re sending transports across the highway from other clusters to import materials.

But PAR has stationed a huge fleet near the mouth of the Hewa gate and there’s a huge Xenon transport graveyard there now. End result, they will never be able to rebuild in Scale Plate because they cannot get resources there and cannot mine locally. The system is functionally lost to them and the Teladi can carry on their work without interference.

And that’s without considering two other issues that have a compounding effect:

1. Every DLC has added more enemies for the Xenon to deal with.

2. The resent improvements where faction destroyers can just sit pretty and outrange Xenon station weapons.

I really do believe, if the Xenon can reinforce their clusters then things will be a lot better for them and we won’t see them dying off so quickly.

A suggestion I’ve made before is for them to “build” a sort of gate that only they can use and that only links their sectors. A sort-of Xenon-only back door - perhaps related to those crystal-like structures they seem to like in their systems.

Lore wise this doesn’t feel like too much of a stretch. We’ve had the Xrnon hub in previous games and they’re terraformers. They exist to spread so it makes sense for them to have tools to do so.

[Millhillian]

it would be crazy for the player to let the Xenon run riot in Hatikvah's Choice...

You mean like this?

This is what can happen if you don't lift a finger to defend Hatikvah's & instead sabotage the Argon's attempts to defend it, e.g. by stealing all their L/XL warships as soon as each one rolls out of the shipyard in Argon Prime (I have an alert setup to let me know whenever that occurs).

It's not crazy, it's all part of the plan. Playing a Spear of the Patriarch game with the Argons as a -30 rep enemy faction, so I am thoroughly enjoying the catastrophic level of carnage the Xenon are inflicting on them.

There's no significant risk for my own ships. Silent Witness I is included on the default travel blacklist for all of my ships, so they have no reason to ever go to the dangerous end of the sector. I don't blacklist Hatikvah's itself because my HQ is in Heretic's End, so sometimes my ships do need to traverse the western end of the sector in order to travel through Morning Star III.

Let the game run and run and even babysit the Xenon. They will not survive. Not if you're playing the game.

I've seen the Xenon worse than that. They took out everything in HC1 and Argon Prime. If you unite the Paranid then they will easily take out the Xenon. The Teladi easily take them out as well. The only thing left is Savage Spur where the player eventually kills them.

They need buffing. I mean a PE is crap. Weak shields, slow and 2 weak weapons and this is the Xenon M class? Not good enough.

[GCU Grey Area]

Let the game run and run and even babysit the Xenon. They will not survive. Not if you're playing the game.

They do in my games. Have played 11 to date, which typically ran for around 20-30 in game days. There were still Xenon present in all of them until the end when I decided it was time to restart.

Think the key difference may be that I do not play 'friends with everyone' games. I do not trade with most factions, or deploy miners in their territory. I only provide ships to factions I particularly favour & that's only ever on the basis of assemble fleet missions (no player-owned shipyards where they can buy as many as they want). I am also an active participant in the various inter-factional wars, particularly those which have war guilds to offer missions. Suspect this all helps to keep most factions weaker than they would otherwise be, while the few factions I do favour can start painting the map in their colours which I do find quite satisfying.

One other thing I tend to do is the cull. When the game's been running for a couple of weeks or so I visit each of the Xenon sectors to see what's going on. If a cluster appears to be weak I eradicate every ship & station so they'll be rebuilt in areas where they are strong. This ultimately creates a single contiguous Xenon region where they are strong enough to survive until the end of the game, ensuring that there are always targets if one of the factions offers me a substantial reward to smash a Xenon station, or hunt a few of their ships. This for example is what my Xenon reservation looked like at the end of my Boron game, which ran for 31 in-game days before I restarted as a Paranid (due to release of Hyperion DLC).

[Millhillian]

They always perish in the end even if you don't save the Yaki. TRI utterly stomps them. Of course I'm thinking that people actually play the game rather than just watching it.

In any case this game will give you hundreds of hours of gameplay and one of the best things is attacking the Xenon.

[vvvvvvvv]

They always perish in the end even if you don't save the Yaki. TRI

They don't. They hold out in Tharka Cascade and nearby sectors and stomp out ZYA. That is the usual outcome.

[adeine]

Let the game run and run and even babysit the Xenon. They will not survive. Not if you're playing the game.

They do in my games. Have played 11 to date, which typically ran for around 20-30 in game days. There were still Xenon present in all of them until the end when I decided it was time to restart.

Think the key difference may be that I do not play 'friends with everyone' games. I do not trade with most factions, or deploy miners in their territory. I only provide ships to factions I particularly favour & that's only ever on the basis of assemble fleet missions (no player-owned shipyards where they can buy as many as they want). I am also an active participant in the various inter-factional wars, particularly those which have war guilds to offer missions. Suspect this all helps to keep most factions weaker than they would otherwise be, while the few factions I do favour can start painting the map in their colours which I do find quite satisfying.

One other thing I tend to do is the cull. When the game's been running for a couple of weeks or so I visit each of the Xenon sectors to see what's going on. If a cluster appears to be weak I eradicate every ship & station so they'll be rebuilt in areas where they are strong. This ultimately creates a single contiguous Xenon region where they are strong enough to survive until the end of the game, ensuring that there are always targets if one of the factions offers me a substantial reward to smash a Xenon station, or hunt a few of their ships. This for example is what my Xenon reservation looked like at the end of my Boron game, which ran for 31 in-game days before I restarted as a Paranid (due to release of Hyperion DLC).

It sounds like the difference is that you do everything in your power to prop them up.

Like people saying there's no problem, you just need to block all shipyards of major factions.

[GCU Grey Area]

In any case this game will give you hundreds of hours of gameplay and one of the best things is attacking the Xenon.

Agree with the first part of that statement (although in my case it's thousands). I do however prefer to fight the other factions. Find it more interesting. They have a far greater variety of ships & stations to destroy, & can often be significantly more dangerous. Many of their weapons have a longer range than Xenon equivalents, their ships are often much better equipped & they use missiles. It's much more of a level playing field than slaughtering Xenon. In particular having a great deal of fun in my current game hunting Threshers. The new turrets added with the Envoy DLC has made them particularly vicious.

[GCU Grey Area]

It sounds like the difference is that you do everything in your power to prop them up.

Like people saying there's no problem, you just need to block all shipyards of major factions.

Never done that myself, would be counter-productive for my style of gameplay. I need the factions to keep churning out ships. Friendly factions so they can use them to conquer the universe (HOP did this in my last game), enemy factions so I've got something to shoot at.

As for doing everything to prop up the Xenon, mostly I just ignore them. Always willing to go & fight them if one of the factions offers me a sufficiently large pile of cash to do so (& there's very little I'm not willing to do if there's a purple weapon mod on the table), however my primary focus is on the other factions. I just find them more fun to interact with, whether that's shooting at them or helping them to win their wars.

[jlehtone]

Let the game run and run and even babysit the Xenon. They will not survive. Not if you're playing the game.

They do in my games. Have played 11 to date, which typically ran for around 20-30 in game days. There were still Xenon present in all of them until the end when I decided it was time to restart.

Like people saying there's no problem, you just need to block all shipyards of major factions.

Sounds like there are more than one acceptable definition for "playing the game".

In any case this game will give you hundreds of hours of gameplay and one of the best things is attacking the Xenon.

Agree with the first part of that statement. I do however prefer to fight the other factions. Find it more interesting.

Indeed. It is way too trivial and easy to attack the Xenon. Simply build up and blast. With the other factions you can face more challenging loadouts and fighting someone does also mean that you forfeit some trade opportunities. You do not lose trade opportunities, nor make enemies by bashing Xenon (until you have them all dead and therefore other factions no longer need your products as much).

If you think that attacking Xenon if fun now, just imagine if it were Dark Souls type activity?

[Ragnos28]

Imo, the only factions that would pose a challenge to the player would be one that uses a lot of fighters, like VIG, because if not...
Lets say I don't like the argon...take an Asgard to Argon Prime, buzz the ONLY Colossus the faction has, buzz the shipyard, buzz the wharf...realistically, it would take me 2 hours of gameplay to "win" the war, with most of the time being spent in taking out the stations...I think I saw a YT clip named "Solo Syn takes out Argon Prime", that is where I got my hypotetical Asgard vs argon faction scenario from.

[mr.WHO]

Personally, while I enjoy more Xenon ships added along Timelines DLC, I still think Xenon would benefit from couple more ships:
LX - heavy fighter from X3, could be elite and rare hunter/killer.
Q - could be introduced as proper Xenon L-size destroyer (K is more like cruiser as it's XL size and lack destroyer batteries).
L - size freighters and Miners to boost Xenon economy.
J - proper XL size carrier with S and M docks and large S/M escort


With above, Xenon fleet would be pretty much complete and on par with rest of mainline factions.

[vvvvvvvv]

if it were Dark Souls type activity?

"New 8.5 feature --> dodge and roll button"
"New 8.5 feature --> ship swords"

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xZhJ_EjEOV0

[adeine]

Sounds like there are more than one acceptable definition for "playing the game".

I don't have a problem with people playing the game how they like to (that would be silly).

But it's difficult for devs to gauge the issue when people say 'oh, Xenon are fine/viable in my game' and then elsewhere you read how they break the game's economy (blocking shipyards) or spend a good chunk of their time cultivating 'Xenon reservations' and shuffling around their failing territories so they don't fizzle out of existence and/or suicide all their miners.

[GCU Grey Area]

Imo, the only factions that would pose a challenge to the player would be one that uses a lot of fighters, like VIG, because if not...
Lets say I don't like the argon...take an Asgard to Argon Prime, buzz the ONLY Colossus the faction has, buzz the shipyard, buzz the wharf...realistically, it would take me 2 hours of gameplay to "win" the war, with most of the time being spent in taking out the stations...I think I saw a YT clip named "Solo Syn takes out Argon Prime", that is where I got my hypotetical Asgard vs argon faction scenario from.

If that's what you find fun. I wouldn't though. Tried an Asgard in my Terran game many years ago. Didn't enjoy the experience at all so have never flown one since. Just don't enjoy flying ships which take a week just to turn round after undocking (at least that's how it felt to me).

Doing most of my combat in my current game with an Envoy, with another 3 (operating in permanent stealth mode) as troop carriers on boarding operations. Also have a Monitor which provides docking facilities for ships I'm not currently using, repairs & marine barracks, along with a Rattlesnake I use for the occasional station demolition job (frequently the same station - Argons keep trying to build a defence platform in Morning Star III, ZYA keeps paying me to demolish it).

Prefer flying the Envoy though, handling's far more fun & it provides a difficulty level for combat I find enjoyable. I've been having a really fun time bashing the Argons with it for the past week or so. Using a bigger fleet (or bigger ships) to do this quicker would not have increased my enjoyment.