Xenon needs a upgrade.

[epion]

Do you guys think Egosoft even cares? I mean we had this Problem with the weak Xenon since v6.0 I believe and it just gets worse every patch.

[Killrathi]

After 7-th patch I have to block docks at factions warfs and shipyards as quick as possible after game start to stop them to produce ships and give xenons a chance to capture at least the neighboring sectors.

[Stabby Dave]

In my game, the Xenon were totally wiped out (mainly by myself).

I'm trying to get them back and have used cheat codes to set them up in Scale Plate Green. They do ok until a Terran Asgard group comes in and Destroys a large number of them. Then another, then another, until.......

I've also noticed that they make no attempt whatsoever to move into adjoining sectors. I've installed the mod which buffs their stats, but it doesn't seem to make much difference.

[adeine]

Do you guys think Egosoft even cares? I mean we had this Problem with the weak Xenon since v6.0 I believe and it just gets worse every patch.

Much longer than that, I can only remember Xenon being a legitimate threat around 3.0 and that was largely because OOS combat was broken.

Certainly worse now than it has been though since XEN stations are defenceless.

[Wheem]

The Xenon sometimes still do OK when attacking Hatikvah's Choice I from Tharka's Cascade XV, assuming no player intervention, probably because there usually isn't all that much resistance from AI fleets there. Faulty Logic I and Matrix #451 on the other hand, seem to more often than not get smashed by large fleets from HOP and TEL, respectively.

I'm not sure exactly why the Xenon often fair so poorly, but I have to wonder if it has anything to do with the Xenon K's performance in low attention combat. It can be really devastating in high attention mode if it gets the right angle of attack, especially when my own (or AI-owned) destroyers don't do a good job of keeping their main batteries on target, but in low attention they honestly don't seem that hard to deal with. When HOP or TEL roll in with a fleet of 5+ destroyers, a carrier, and maybe an auxiliary ship, plus accompanying S/M escorts, I don't think most of the Xenon fleets really stand much of a chance. Perhaps the Xenon K, PE, M, etc...need to perform a little better in low attention, and/or they need to be allowed to field more/larger fleets, and/or some of their sectors need a bump up in resources, etc...

'Course, we don't want things to swing too far in the other direction I suppose, especially for players who are either new or like to take their time before building up their own empire. We shouldn't want it to be common for the Xenon to fully seize and lock down important sectors, with the AI unable to effectively fight back.

[moako]

'Course, we don't want things to swing too far in the other direction I suppose, especially for players who are either new or like to take their time before building up their own empire. We shouldn't want it to be common for the Xenon to fully seize and lock down important sectors, with the AI unable to effectively fight back.

To prevent this outcome some of the factions need better equiped and more defense stations especially factions HAT, ZYA and maybe HOP and TEL.
HOP is strong but there main sector lies next to a Xenon sector and is also important for the trade route. Same applies also for one of the TEL sectors.

[jlehtone]

'Course, we don't want things to swing too far in the other direction I suppose, especially for players who are either new or like to take their time before building up their own empire. We shouldn't want it to be common for the Xenon to fully seize and lock down important sectors, with the AI unable to effectively fight back.

To prevent this outcome some of the factions need better equiped and more defense stations especially ...

Why not go all the way and make all NPC stations immortal? Then no NPC is a threat to any other NPC (except that they can still kill each others ships, run out of resources, and then have only the immortal stations left).

If A beats B, then there are two options: (1) make B stronger, or (2) make A weaker. Both decrease A's ability to beat B.

The rogue in that is the C that already beats both A and B hands down and save that immortality that will not change. Yet, the C is the only one of them that makes noises.

[moako]

'Course, we don't want things to swing too far in the other direction I suppose, especially for players who are either new or like to take their time before building up their own empire. We shouldn't want it to be common for the Xenon to fully seize and lock down important sectors, with the AI unable to effectively fight back.

To prevent this outcome some of the factions need better equiped and more defense stations especially ...

Why not go all the way and make all NPC stations immortal? Then no NPC is a threat to any other NPC (except that they can still kill each others ships, run out of resources, and then have only the immortal stations left).

If A beats B, then there are two options: (1) make B stronger, or (2) make A weaker. Both decrease A's ability to beat B.

Because that isn't by far a solution and not what I aimed at.

The point is; It is not about weakening or strengthening it's about balancing the game in a way the player has the possiblity to intervene without getting overrun with the speed of distruction.

Just that you know, my game is only 19 hours old and the Xenon already lost at least a Sector.
I didn't uncover all the xenon sectors yet.

[zakaluka]

Do you guys think Egosoft even cares? I mean we had this Problem with the weak Xenon since v6.0 I believe and it just gets worse every patch.

I suspect they really want a few things for branding reasons

they probably really do not want a universe without the player's involvement to be unstable with a xenon advantage. Because this takes away the free play aspect of sandbox, you have a mandate to get heavily involved in this large scale war. Someone who's new may have a really negative experience because they just weren't paying attention. like, ruin their universe.

If I were a game designer I would also dislike if there is a tendency for the player's HQ in heretics end to get encroached on too heavily. (which is probably why they added the static defense platforms as part of kingdom end)

when bernd revealed in the AMA that he's not totally on board with a scalable difficulty setting, this is what comes to mind for me. I suspect that to really have threatening xenon will generally require mods, even going forward. but that's just one man speculating.

[Ragnos28]

As someone that atm is getting his space fix from X3TC (and having a real hard time mustering the will to return to X4, to be honest ), my proposal is this:
- with all Egosoft concern about "every ship in the game must be build somewhere...", maybe spawn xenon by mission, should make a return?
This way, those that want the xenon gone, can do so, by avoiding the missions, and those that want to bring their xenon back from the dead. can also do so. Bonus, those that don't like a faction, can accept a "spawn" mission in their sectors, jump in a xenon fleet, and say "just kidding, lol", abandon the mission, and then let the poor bastards deal with it.

[Damian Swift]

Must admit, the Xenon problem is that they are no longer a 'problem'.

I'm the last of a large group of friends who still play the game due to no real threat towards mid game (never mind end game), making building an empire rather pointless. Every expansion I give it a fresh go hoping something has been done to give the bog bad Xenon some teeth...
Sadly started a new envoy playthrough and within a days play the Xenon have been removed from faulty logic, the Matrixes have fallen to the teladi (and even a few split) and Frontiers edge is Argon.

So, I'll have to forego my trading empire and artificially create a war with one of the major factions just for something for me to to with my fleet!.

This can't be how the game was meant to be? I want the Xenon to actually be a threat again.

[adeine]

when bernd revealed in the AMA that he's not totally on board with a scalable difficulty setting, this is what comes to mind for me. I suspect that to really have threatening xenon will generally require mods, even going forward. but that's just one man speculating.

This is just lazy thinking in my opinion. There are plenty of ways to introduce optional/scaleable difficulty in ways that do not rely on settings or alternative balancing being implemented. The endgame crisis would have been a fantastic way to allow players to opt for a legitimate endgame Xenon threat in their games, and many of us offered feedback and detailed suggestions as to how this could be implemented.

It really was such a missed opportunity.

[moako]

Do you guys think Egosoft even cares? I mean we had this Problem with the weak Xenon since v6.0 I believe and it just gets worse every patch.

they probably really do not want a universe without the player's involvement to be unstable with a xenon advantage. Because this takes away the free play aspect of sandbox, you have a mandate to get heavily involved in this large scale war. Someone who's new may have a really negative experience because they just weren't paying attention. like, ruin their universe.

It goes both ways. It takes also away the free play aspect of a sandbox if the xenon are wiped out. And at the moment the xenon are getting wiped out pretty fast and that is boring.

But you are right if you say that it has for a new player a really negative experience if the xenon are getting too strong at the begin of a new start.
I made this experience as a new player as the xenon get a foodhold in the HAT Sector and destroyed the HAT fabrics and took mostly over the HAT sector.
Through this I couldn't really manage to trade with other factions and I lost to many L ships. That was annoying.
But the conclusion isn't to weakening the xenon. It means simply that some of the sectors need more defense stations too slow down the progress of the xenon.

[jlehtone]

they probably really do not want a universe without the player's involvement to be unstable with a xenon advantage. Because this takes away the free play aspect of sandbox, you have a mandate to get heavily involved in this large scale war. Someone who's new may have a really negative experience because they just weren't paying attention. like, ruin their universe.

It goes both ways. It takes also away the free play aspect of a sandbox if the xenon are wiped out. And at the moment the xenon are getting wiped out pretty fast and that is boring.

But you are right if you say that it has for a new player a really negative experience if the xenon are getting too strong at the begin of a new start.
I made this experience as a new player as the xenon get a foodhold in the HAT Sector and destroyed the HAT fabrics and took mostly over the HAT sector.

Lets imagine a Galaxy with two sectors: "Shire" and "Verdun". It is relatively safe to start and live in Shire. Verdun, on the other hand, has ongoing war. Massive, continuous casualties for all participants, but the front-line will not rapidly move. Even if it moves, it will not push to Shire. Player could sell weapons to war from Shire, but unless a real flood, it would still not make a big difference. Basically, decent business would ensure that war stays in Verdun. Only by sending Serious Fleets (and hero ace) would the state of war change more.

That has issues too. It is rather static. Furthermore, "throw lots of credits" is the main may to make a difference. No opportunities for "lone pilot with a cunning plan within ventilation duct" type blitzkrieg.

[zakaluka]

And at the moment the xenon are getting wiped out pretty fast and that is boring.

The xenon don't get wiped out unless that's what the player chooses. Over the period of a few weeks they lose in some predictable locations, then consolidate their power somewhere else (usually atiya's & tharka's but not every time)

Though I do see new players make this mistake, it's predictable. We have to make the big decision in terran covert ops & we've just been gifted a syn. Idk but everyone I see at this stage goes "let's kill the xenon"

Very easy to permanently cripple them

[xavii]

As someone that atm is getting his space fix from X3TC (and having a real hard time mustering the will to return to X4, to be honest ), my proposal is this:
- with all Egosoft concern about "every ship in the game must be build somewhere...", maybe spawn xenon by mission, should make a return?
This way, those that want the xenon gone, can do so, by avoiding the missions, and those that want to bring their xenon back from the dead. can also do so. Bonus, those that don't like a faction, can accept a "spawn" mission in their sectors, jump in a xenon fleet, and say "just kidding, lol", abandon the mission, and then let the poor bastards deal with it.

I consider myself a combat focused player and ejoyed the combat-missions in X3tc and X3ap very much and didn't care that the ships spawened out of nowhere. Combat is the aspect of X4 I find the weakest (for dfferent reasons), and with in some playthroughs where xenon go nearly extinct to early it is almost pointless for me.
In X3 was lot's of variety and you could find missions with different difficulty levels for different sizes of fleets or missions. It was (or still is) a great combat-sandbox. The missions scaled nicely with your combat rank. In X4 it is so hard to find a fun combat scenario, except some missions from the storyline.
In my new gamestart I found only some missions that where much to easywith my starter ship: Fighting some Khaak with the new envoy ship, no real challange. Combat in timelines could be fun for example, but i miss a similar combat experience in the sandbox.

In many aspects X4 is more advanced than X3, thats why I stick with it. But I would love to see a return of a similar combat missions system like that in X3, along with other combat focused improvements. But I see a problem with such a system, that spawn for example a little xenon fleet. I dont´have the ships I need always with me and I can not let the ships jump fast to me when needed for such a mission, because there is no jumpdrive like in X3.

[Vanguard22]

Forgive the terrible image I threw together, but to me, there is an obvious correlation between how much resources a sector has and how well they do. Xenon typically do better in Tharkas, Atiya's and Scale Plate Green because they actually have some resources... for awhile. Look how bad the other sectors are. Not to mention, IMHO these sectors should be res wealthy as somewhat of a trophy for players who do actually want to take them out. As it stands, the Xenon have a handful of sectors and they can keep them, because they're worthless Perhaps they would do better if they didn't have to constantly fly through hell's gate to get res. They're literally backed in a corner with a limited amount of resources, so the outcome is inevitable.


https://ibb.co/FLmWfY0g

[Ragnos28]

In many aspects X4 is more advanced than X3, thats why I stick with it. But I would love to see a return of a similar combat missions system like that in X3, along with other combat focused improvements. But I see a problem with such a system, that spawn for example a little xenon fleet. I dont´have the ships I need always with me and I can not let the ships jump fast to me when needed for such a mission, because there is no jumpdrive like in X3.

I just stroll around the universe with my ATF Tyr, using SETA to simulate the X4's travel drive, while my Aran is being constructed at my PHQ and my marines are being trained for my future boarding of the ATF Odin.
Then I took a break and fire up X4...I need to get my fleet from Hatikvah's Choice to Familly Tkr (which will take a while), if I want to have some fleet action fun against the xenon, with the fear that the factions will move in at once after I'm done, and the xenon might never return.
Meanwile, in X3, the station with the combat mission, can bring me my fleet combat fix, right in the sector I'm in, bonus I can jump in any adittional forces I need, and make some hefty cash while I'm at it, and in the next sector, I can do it all again.

As for concern about being able to deal with an instant xenon fleet in X4...I already tend to field one of the super-carriers, Raptor or Shark, with S bombers/interceptors mix, as "handle everything" fleet. And if a carrier mobility/speed of deployment is a problem, the Shark instant travel drive and instant launch of fighters, will aliviate much of such concerns.

[moako]

they probably really do not want a universe without the player's involvement to be unstable with a xenon advantage. Because this takes away the free play aspect of sandbox, you have a mandate to get heavily involved in this large scale war. Someone who's new may have a really negative experience because they just weren't paying attention. like, ruin their universe.

It goes both ways. It takes also away the free play aspect of a sandbox if the xenon are wiped out. And at the moment the xenon are getting wiped out pretty fast and that is boring.

But you are right if you say that it has for a new player a really negative experience if the xenon are getting too strong at the begin of a new start.
I made this experience as a new player as the xenon get a foodhold in the HAT Sector and destroyed the HAT fabrics and took mostly over the HAT sector.

Lets imagine a Galaxy with two sectors: "Shire" and "Verdun". It is relatively safe to start and live in Shire. Verdun, on the other hand, has ongoing war. Massive, continuous casualties for all participants, but the front-line will not rapidly move. Even if it moves, it will not push to Shire. Player could sell weapons to war from Shire, but unless a real flood, it would still not make a big difference. Basically, decent business would ensure that war stays in Verdun. Only by sending Serious Fleets (and hero ace) would the state of war change more.

That has issues too. It is rather static. Furthermore, "throw lots of credits" is the main may to make a difference. No opportunities for "lone pilot with a cunning plan within ventilation duct" type blitzkrieg.

You are speaking of two sectors therefore this example is pretty bad and not really related to the issue and also doesn't counter my statement.

Of course I prefere, no, I would say I request a lively and dynamic universe. Of course it is necessary that the xenon conquer new sectors and the other way around and also between factions.
The HOP should conquer new sectors from ANT, TEL and PAR, vise versa too.

But this works only to a certain point and it needs to happen in a slower pace. To slow down the speed additional defense stations could help in sectors as HAT.
This would give new player the time to get used to X4 and earn money, ships and stations.

Also it could help if Egososft would adjust there diplomacy upgrade.
Following I have written in german(translated with google):
That would be a fundamental conceptual flaw in Egosoft. It's all well and good to be able to influence the relationships between the various factions over the long term.

What's missing in this case, however, is the ability to influence the support of certain factions in war situations, depending on the game situation.
For example: It would be great if HATs could call for help via the diplomatic headquarters, since they aren't able to oppose the Xenon anyway.
Then the player could select various promising factions and get them to provide military support, regardless of their relationship status.
In the sense of: The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Who has an interest in protecting HAT? Who would it harm?
Well, the ARG wants to take over the HAT sector. Enemies of the ARG are: xxxxx, etc. xxxxx.
Then, for example, the VIG could permanently position itself in the HAT sector. The HOP, TEL, and Split may each send a small or larger combat unit once, depending on how strongly the player supports the HAT with the respective faction.

[Damian Swift]

To be honest, I think I, along with most of my friends are done with the X Universe until the Xenon are sorted out.

2nd start with the Envoy DLC and AGAIN without any help from myself within 2 game days the Xenon are all but wiped out. Teladi have easily taken the Matrix sectors, Faulty logic has fallen to the HOP and even the northern Split are pushing into the Xenon sectors (which was a first).

So unless I spend hours cultivating influence and starting artificial wars with Diplomacy the X universe economy grinds to a halt.

Question ... Why do the Xenon send pitiful fleets of 1 I and 3 k's when there are sometimes upto 15 faction destroyers guarding the gate? Why don't they have decent fleets?