Xenon needs a upgrade.

[vvvvvvvv]

if it were Dark Souls type activity?

"New 8.5 feature --> dodge and roll button"
"New 8.5 feature --> ship swords"

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xZhJ_EjEOV0

"Xenon Knight"

[Ragnos28]

Imo, the only factions that would pose a challenge to the player would be one that uses a lot of fighters, like VIG, because if not...
Lets say I don't like the argon...take an Asgard to Argon Prime, buzz the ONLY Colossus the faction has, buzz the shipyard, buzz the wharf...realistically, it would take me 2 hours of gameplay to "win" the war, with most of the time being spent in taking out the stations...I think I saw a YT clip named "Solo Syn takes out Argon Prime", that is where I got my hypotetical Asgard vs argon faction scenario from.

If that's what you find fun. I wouldn't though. Tried an Asgard in my Terran game many years ago. Didn't enjoy the experience at all so have never flown one since. Just don't enjoy flying ships which take a week just to turn round after undocking (at least that's how it felt to me).

Doing most of my combat in my current game with an Envoy, with another 3 (operating in permanent stealth mode) as troop carriers on boarding operations. Also have a Monitor which provides docking facilities for ships I'm not currently using, repairs & marine barracks, along with a Rattlesnake I use for the occasional station demolition job (frequently the same station - Argons keep trying to build a defence platform in Morning Star III, ZYA keeps paying me to demolish it).

Prefer flying the Envoy though, handling's far more fun & it provides a difficulty level for combat I find enjoyable. I've been having a really fun time bashing the Argons with it for the past week or so. Using a bigger fleet (or bigger ships) to do this quicker would not have increased my enjoyment.

I'm not exactly crazy about flying an Asgard either, not because is slow to manuever (XL ships are supposed to be slow) but because how absurdly OP is in the hands of the player, after I took out 6 Ks in quick succession with just one hit bar using bursts, I was kinda done with the ship. Of course, that was before the xenon were downgraded to endangered specie, now if I see 6 Ks I would be like...my precious, must protect , while looking in map mode and hoping no faction forces find them...

About the game scenario you are describing, seems that the "mighty" argon faction is not capable to stop a player controled M ship, the Envoy, with speed and boost that make it impossible for any AI controled asset to ever catch up to you, might as well by invulnerable...bonus, you can use it to defang any argon capital ship you might encounter, because their L/XL shields are useless to protect surface elements against your M ship.

That is why I get my combat fix from X3TC atm, I can't take out hostile capitals with something like a Moreya with Burts Rays, that and infinite xenon and instant fleets to battle from X-treme lvl combat missions, right in the sector I'm in.

[moako]

I mean a PE is crap. Weak shields, slow and 2 weak weapons and this is the Xenon M class? Not good enough.

The xenon are machines. Therefore it isn't about technical superiority. They don't need special ships, etc.
The Xenon ships are all OK.

What they need is much more ships. They need quantity not quality.

[vvvvvvvv]

I mean a PE is crap. Weak shields, slow and 2 weak weapons and this is the Xenon M class? Not good enough.

The xenon are machines. Therefore it isn't about technical superiority. They don't need special ships, etc.
The Xenon ships are all OK.

What they need is much more ships. They need quantity not quality.

It is also possible to reason that because they're machines and t hey were continuously improving for about 800 years, they should have stronger ships than any other faction in the game. And in that frame of reasoning underpowered PE does not make a lot of sense.

Regarding xenon ships, I like their design and tried to fly them as player ship. They're not okay. The most common issue is weak engine (slow speed and travel mode), weak shield, and usually the weaponry is crippled one way or another. For example, PE is a corvette, has 2 guns and 2 turrets. Needler turrets have short range. B is restricted to short range cutters, and so on. Even shipmods do not really resolve the situation.

[GCU Grey Area]

I'm not exactly crazy about flying an Asgard either, not because is slow to manuever (XL ships are supposed to be slow) but because how absurdly OP is in the hands of the player, after I took out 6 Ks in quick succession with just one hit bar using bursts, I was kinda done with the ship.

Must admit I didn't get as far as firing the guns. Literally it was a case of flying it out of the shipyard, thinking "oh this is truly horrible, don't think I want to do this again". Tried a couple of them in my demolition fleet but was unimpressed with the sheer amount of time it took for the AI to aim it's main gun. Retired them to act essentially as additional defence modules at my HQ. As for being OP, well that's a matter for player choice - some may appreciate being able to destroy Argon Prime in 2 hours (prepared to accept your estimate on that). I find it more satisfying to pick the sector apart with a week of systematic commerce raiding & boarding operations (most of the stations are still there, they just have very few ships left to handle logistics). Thankfully the game can provide both experiences, & I'm sure many other approaches to the task.

About the game scenario you are describing, seems that the "mighty" argon faction is not capable to stop a player controled M ship, the Envoy, with speed and boost that make it impossible for any AI controled asset to ever catch up to you, might as well by invulnerable...bonus, you can use it to defang any argon capital ship you might encounter, because their L/XL shields are useless to protect surface elements against your M ship.

Certainly don't feel invulnerable flying my Envoy. Have had quite a few near death experiences (most recent was a Thresher which left me on 4% hull) - it's still an M ship with an M ship's size, hull & shielding, which makes it comparatively easy to hit & somewhat fragile. Boost's good with the Argon engine, however on balance I prefer the Teladi option for faster travel drive while cloaked. Defanging capital ships can be done with any M ship, main shields have never protected surface elements, regardless of ship used, so unsure what you point is about that.

[Millhillian]

The only thing I like about PEs is their boost. It's savage lol. I've captured loads of these and flown hundreds. Never in a million years would it be my personal ship. All they are to me is trophies. I wouldn't put any in a fleet and not because I'm scared to lose them. Because I can build much better ships.

They do need a buff or change? This is the Xenon. AI hellbent on destroying every living thing. Well 2 guns on a PE will not be enough. Nowhere near. Machines would've added more guns.

[moako]

I mean a PE is crap. Weak shields, slow and 2 weak weapons and this is the Xenon M class? Not good enough.

The xenon are machines. Therefore it isn't about technical superiority. They don't need special ships, etc.
The Xenon ships are all OK.

What they need is much more ships. They need quantity not quality.

It is also possible to reason that because they're machines and t hey were continuously improving for about 800 years, they should have stronger ships than any other faction in the game. And in that frame of reasoning underpowered PE does not make a lot of sense.

The same applies also for all the other factions. The distinction is that humans are imaginative and innovative but the Xenon are built for terraforming and therefore they are terraformer. The Terraner had never the idea to make a machine who will replace the terraner.
It is a pretty obvious conclusion that the Xenon missing a lot of the necessary technology to behave as you assume.

Of course the xenon are able to evolve but only in a specific way. Unless someone gave them more input and information.

Regarding xenon ships, I like their design and tried to fly them as player ship. They're not okay.

Hopefully they are not OK to fly for you because it makes no sense if all the ships in X4 would suit you.
Each player has preferences and therefore not each ship can be perfect as a player ship but maybe it's a good ship for NPC.

[vvvvvvvv]

The same applies also for all the other factions. The distinction is that

... that robots do not get tired, do not give up, and do not get distracted by petty ambitions, can build more brainpower on demand and never sleep. Organics are at disadvantage.

but the Xenon are built for terraforming and therefore they are terraformer.

See x4 encyclopedia on xenon evolution. It is included with collector's esdition as bonus content. ORIGINAL terraformer ships were able to reach self-awareness. Next iterations of xenon refined the tech and made it much more compact.

Also see Geometric Owl missions in x4.

Hopefully they are not OK to fly for you because it makes no sense if all the ships in X4 would suit you.
Each player has preferences and therefore not each ship can be perfect as a player ship but maybe it's a good ship for NPC.

It is unlikely to be a good ship for NPC when it has worse stats across the board compared to pretty much everything else. Also please note that player compared to NPCs is a significantly better pilot so there is no reason to expect NPC to perform better than player.

[Ragnos28]

Certainly don't feel invulnerable flying my Envoy. Have had quite a few near death experiences (most recent was a Thresher which left me on 4% hull) - it's still an M ship with an M ship's size, hull & shielding, which makes it comparatively easy to hit & somewhat fragile. Boost's good with the Argon engine, however on balance I prefer the Teladi option for faster travel drive while cloaked.

In a way, the Envoy have even more survivability than an Asgard, because while the Asgard is vulnerable to losing its engine and to large swarms of fighers, the Envoy (and all M ships for that matter) have invulnerable engines and consequence free boost, so it could potentially escape an gate ambush of 100 xenon fighters, while an Asgard could not (been there, done that).

Defanging capital ships can be done with any M ship, main shields have never protected surface elements, regardless of ship used, so unsure what you point is about that.

That was a jab at both the, imo, absurd capital ship vulnerability, 1.000.000 MJ shield at 100% not being able to protect the surface elements under it, and the fact that, afaik, the Envoy main weapon bypass shields entirely, removing even the pretence defence provided by the pathetic turrets/engines shields.

[GCU Grey Area]

the Envoy main weapon bypass shields entirely, removing even the pretence defence provided by the pathetic turrets/engines shields.

Prefer the distortion main gun myself. Turns plasma cannons into general purpose weapons that are viable against targets of all sizes. Distortion's also damn handy for piracy (which I've been doing an awful lot of in this particular game) - no need to smash engines when a brief burst of gunfire can prevent the target from running away, at least for a few seconds.

This is however straying way off topic, should really get back to discussing the Xenon.

Suspect Xenon ships are noticeably weaker than their counterparts from other factions for gameplay reasons. They're an enemy that no one has any choice about. If it was the other way round, & they were substantially stronger than the corresponding ships a player can buy, there might be complaints (along the lines of 'how the hell am I supposed to fight that when everything I have access to is so much worse?'). I tend to consider the Xenon as an early game starter enemy - shoot them up for fun & profit for a while, hoover up loot, buy better ship(s), then declare war on a more challenging foe. There are factions that the player can choose to fight that field substantially better ships if a tougher combat experience is desired. Fringe benefit - doing so also helps to take some of the heat off the Xenon.

[Millhillian]

Just as an aside my hq has a hull that is half a billion.

If you have a hq like that then it does not need protecting. As for the Xenon? Need more, dangerous sectors and they need to stop their miners flying halfway across the map to what is already a lost cause. I'd say at least 20% of their resources are wasted because they just keep on mining, building miners and sending them off to places they will never reach. And that's without the player's involvement. It's just dumb what they do. I don't think machines would do that.

[Ragnos28]

Spawn via missions, be that fleets or sectors, is the only solution I see, with the missions being the "toggle", so the players that don't want the xenon "resurgence" to occur, can opt out from it.
And if not "spawn" per se, then an increase in ship production rate, a decrease of resources required for ships production, etc, but with missions toggle...and no, End game crissis, as in fleets that teleports near the player properties, attacking only the player assets, while bypassing all gate defences, was not it....

[moako]

The same applies also for all the other factions. The distinction is that

... that robots do not get tired, do not give up, and do not get distracted by petty ambitions, can build more brainpower on demand and never sleep. Organics are at disadvantage.

Some of your points are correct but that means only that the Xenon outnumber the Organics. And that is exactly my point. The Organics are by far a superior(technical advantage) forces.
You are saying that the Xenon can build more brainpower on demand No, absolutely not.
The Xenon are not imaginative and innovative enough to do this.
The Xenon don't have the input and informations as the Organics have.
The Xenon don't have science devices except those needed to do there terraforming.

but the Xenon are built for terraforming and therefore they are terraformer.

See x4 encyclopedia on xenon evolution. It is included with collector's esdition as bonus content. ORIGINAL terraformer ships were able to reach self-awareness. Next iterations of xenon refined the tech and made it much more compact.

Also see Geometric Owl missions in x4.

Is X4 Sci Fi or a fantasy genre
I would say it is Sci Fi and therefore the existing knowledge counts.
What sort of self-awarness? The self-awarness of an animal? What significance has such a self-awarness?
It is by far not only self-awarness which counts.

You are speaking about next iteration and some sort of, I think you mean "innovation".
Yes. That is absolutely possible.
But again. The Xenon have only knowledge about there own technology as terraformer. Not more, not less.
They do not have the necessar science devices to create the necessary inputs and informations.
They know nothing about physics and a lot of other stuff which you absolutely need to evolve.

[Y-llian]

My sense of the Xenon is that they achieved machine sentience and the branch iterations has permitted them to evolve i.e. get smarter still.

I think of them as similar to Geth in Mass Effect. Fully aware but with a shared, network consciousness that they can shard if necessary, permitting them to operate in clusters. The ships and stations are just platforms designed to serve a function. What we perceive as the Xenon really isn’t anymore. They’re software… The hardware is merely there for them to exert control over
/ interact with the physical world.

So, yes, they do indeed have an understanding of physics etc. The Xenon the current X denizens are dealing with are nothing like the terraformers of old. In the same way humans intellectually surpassed our primate origins. Indeed, the Xenon designed super weapons in the past to destroy planets (contrary to their terraformers logic) and for that, you need sentient-level smarts and a good grounding in science.

[jlehtone]

Is X4 Sci Fi or a fantasy genre

Does it matter? No lore helps when it ends: "but they are long gone now".

Do you want stronger Xenon ships so that if you see one in your starting Elite, then you are dead for it will catch you?
Do you want more Xenon ships, so that you never see one only?
Both?
Something else?

[vvvvvvvv]

Some of your points are correct but that means only that the Xenon outnumber the Organics. And that is exactly my point.

Imagination is an algorithm and is not necessary for innovation, as it can be replaced by brute force and genetic algorithm. It is also possible to emulate organic circuitry, likely in a much more compact form.

We are not special and we do not have any advantage over machines. Though humans like to think differently.

Is X4 Sci Fi or a fantasy genre

It is a space opera. Neither space fantasy nor science fiction.

What sort of self-awarness?

Human-level sentience, and beyond human level sentience. Look up #deff and #efaa . That was first terraformer and not yet xenon. Meaning non-upgrade ships like terrans built it.

AGI cores and machine consciousness are discussed in encyclopedia in section C-28.

----

In my opinion in any sort of hard setting Xenon would inevitably win even without sentiene, and could easily have billions of systems under their control. The reason they do not win is because organics have plot armor.

And that means they must have better or the best ships.

Or you could look at it from another angle. The lore says humans could not defeat xenon for centuries. In x4, Terrans and Argon are endlessly battling xenon without ever hoping to win.

But.

The player can wipe out ALL xenon alone in about 7 days. Possibly even when starting with no money. And possibly even using only one ship.

And that does not match the lore, where Xenon are persistent unending threat. Hence they need better gear.

Mk3 engines would be a good start.

[moako]

Or you could look at it from another angle. The lore says humans could not defeat xenon for centuries. In x4, Terrans and Argon are endlessly battling xenon without ever hoping to win.

But.

The player can wipe out ALL xenon alone in about 7 days. Possibly even when starting with no money. And possibly even using only one ship.

And that does not match the lore, where Xenon are persistent unending threat. Hence they need better gear.

Human-level sentience isn't possible because they don't have the same sort of inputs. As long as the Xenon aren't function the same way as humans it isn't possible that the have human-level sentience because it isn't possible to compare those two different sort of existence/sentience.

Anyway, the reason that human couldn't defeat the Xenon for centuries lies in the weakness of humanity. Organics needs food, sleep, stations, planets and need protection against the inhospitable universe.
The Xenon are able to stay in more or less the whole universe. That is a big advantage for Xenons. Time doesn't count for Xenon.

The disadvantage for Xenon is that they had never the same amount of information as human had and have. Of course they built better ships and weapons due to there evolving but bound to there knowledge as terraformer.

This means the Xenon should have a really big armada throughout the universe. They may be weaker but if 100 S Xenon Ships fight against 1 S human ship the winner would be Xenon.
I'm not sure if the player computer could handle this sort of simulation.

[vvvvvvvv]

Human-level sentience isn't possible

Human level sentience is simply a matter of processing power, and Xenon achieved it before. Using ancient machine built on earth. 2200s tech. Current events in X4 take place around year 2995.

lies in the weakness of humanity.

That is the reason Xenon should've WON.

The disadvantage for Xenon is that they had never the same amount of information as human had and have.

Please play through geometric owl mission.

[moako]

Maybe we have a misunderstanding. Could it be that you are take the angle of Helge T. Kautz
What I have written is simply related to Sci-Fi and therefore to science.

Human-level sentience isn't possible

Human level sentience is simply a matter of processing power, and Xenon achieved it before. Using ancient machine built on earth. 2200s tech. Current events in X4 take place around year 2995.

Could you give me a hint where to find this information in the book of Helge T. Kautz

lies in the weakness of humanity.

That is the reason Xenon should've WON.

Again, also the machines have weaknesses. Doesn't matter which angle you take in this case.

The disadvantage for Xenon is that they had never the same amount of information as human had and have.

Please play through geometric owl mission.

I have played through all the missions but it's quite a while. Is this the mission with the Torus Fragment

As far as I can remember it wasn't mentioned that the AI had access to all the human information and received the information how to built science devices and how to analyse such information.
What I can remember is that the Computronic has some sort of sentience.

What is it that you refer to

[vvvvvvvv]

Could you give me a hint where to find this information in the book of Helge T. Kautz

Section C-23 outlines terraformers and #efaa
Section C-10 outlines #deff and provides detailed data on date of third terraforming fleet #deff is a part of.
C-28 outlines AGI core size.

Again, also the machines have weaknesses. Doesn't matter which angle you take in this case.

From my point of view that is not the case, or rather biological weaknesses outweight. Our biological platform, while it excels at parallel processing, is running at extremely slow speed. Clock of human brain is something in ballpark of 120 hertz.
Computing power equivalent of a human brain is estimated to be an exaflop and machines with such capacity exist right now. Though they're for now large halls full of computers.

Fundamentally, however, the idea is that anything that can be digitized, can be emulated and then analyzed and optimized. Our consciousness, for the record, is evolutionary recent addition, barely a million years old. Compare it to species which existed for more. So even if we propose that human brain is unique, then replicating the unique thought process of a human is a matter or building a connectome emulator. And speaking of which... last time I tried to estimate how large a semiconductor equivalent of human brain could end up as, I arrived at an estimation of one cubic centimeter cube. It is possible that I made an error. But that ultimately means that "the machine is superior".

Regarding building more computing power. Without cloning facilities for a human it takes decades to grow more scientists. Self-replicating robots can build more thinking ships. Those can network, and then can bruteforce problems, machine cannot solve creatively, and that involves algorithm of creativity and human imagination. Because those too, are, fundamentally, algorithms, albeit not simple ones.

So, from general scifi perspective, a reasonable idea would be to expect a galactic superintelligence within 100-200 years from terraformer's escaping. Because von-neumann probes are self-replicating they can also spread in geometric progresssion. At the very least it coudl mean that 800 years in, all stars within 800 radius would be infected by xenon. But the worst case scenario would be xenon traveling through gate network, which covers thousand stars (see section C2). So xenon could have ALL of them. A 800 Ly bubble around every connected gate in existence within our milky way region. As I said, this is "scifi without holding punches" scenario. Emergent AI, self-improvement, spread, impossible numbers. Imagine industrial power of billions of star systems, each with factories.

The reason it does not happen is plot armor. Egosoft original writers, as far as I can tell, do not want "no hope" universe (as it would be) and instead give human a chance. The game also does not help the impresssion, as it is strongly scaled down. For example, realistically speaking upon flying into Atiya misfortunete, you should be greeted by a small strike group of a million xenon ships. In the game it is simply not going to happening, due to engine limits.

Going back to limits.

The limits of machine is reproduction mechanism begin complex and requiring factories. But xenon has an answer for that. See section C-23 on assembler drones.

I have played through all the missions but it's quite a while. Is this the mission with the Torus Fragment

It is torus mission where you interact with

Spoiler

Show

Geometric Owl, which is apparently a xenon AI, which is able to wirelessly transfer out of your ship.

The important thing there is that it is one such thing you KNOW of. And there could be thousands of them lurking in station networks.

...

But going back to t he mechanic all this means that xenons mechanically are far weaker than they should be. And that applies to player-capturable ships.